The depravity of men (and to what degree it goes)

[Prentis]

I have found it a common delusion today to believe we are so depraved we cannot even do what is right, as the publican or good Samaritan did. It is a belief that says "I can do nothing, nothing, nothing, thus any striving is foolishness". Subtly, this is used to deny the necessity of growth in Christ.

Yet the word says....

[sup]12[/sup] Sow for yourselves righteousness;
Reap in mercy;
Break up your fallow ground,
For it is time to seek the LORD,
Till He comes and rains righteousness on you.

We sow, we break up the ground of our heart, we seek...

 

[Prentis]

The error lies here:

Man is depraved because of his fallen nature to this point: he cannot be righteous as God, holy as God, and perfect by his own nature.
Man is not depraved to this point: he cannot seek God, he cannot be righteous like the publican or Samaritan.

Man can be righteous as the publican or Samaritan.

But to walk in the righteousness of Christ, and be as he is, the old nature must die, and he must walk by the new.

 

[aspen]

We are basically good with a tendency to sin (selfishness and self reliance) because of fear which masquarades as pride. At the core of every pompous narcissitic know-it-all is a lonely, frightened person who needs reconcilliation with God. The most frequently occuring phrase in the NT from Jesus is not condemnation for depravity or even pride, it is 'be not afraid'. Calvin has left a depraved legacy of flagalation and self loathing rather than freedom.

 

[Prentis]

I don't see us as good with a tendency to sin. Rather I see us as a blank sheet, with potential to be loving OR wicked, in both cases being plagued by a sin nature.

The sin nature, we did not choose, but were born in it. Then, we can either call it as it is, and as the publican, see the evil of this nature and it's ways, or we can love it, and roll in it like pigs in the dung!

With the sin nature, we cannot be as good is. We can though, choose to be honest and just with what we have, which includes bringing our weaknesses to the light, and being honest about them, rather than hiding them.

In Christ, we can go further, by his power. This old nature can actually be crucified, and yet we live, because we now can live by HIS nature!

 

[aspen]

I don't see us as good with a tendency to sin. Rather I see us as a blank sheet, with potential to be loving OR wicked, in both cases being plagued by a sin nature.

The sin nature, we did not choose, but were born in it. Then, we can either call it as it is, and as the publican, see the evil of this nature and it's ways, or we can love it, and roll in it like pigs in the dung!

With the sin nature, we cannot be as good is. We can though, choose to be honest and just with what we have, which includes bringing our weaknesses to the light, and being honest about them, rather than hiding them.

In Christ, we can go further, by his power. This old nature can actually be crucified, and yet we live, because we now can live by HIS nature!

I see. Yet, A&E were created good? I have never met a narcissist who wasn't terrified.

 

[Prentis]

I see. Yet, A&E were created good? I have never met a narcissist who wasn't terrified.

Yes, and yet they chose wrong. They were given all that is necessary, but still enabled to choose.

Lucifer and Michael were both created good, one fell, one didn't.

In other words, we all have the capability of choosing to be faithful or unfaithful. In that sense, I see men as blank sheets.

 

[aspen]

Yes, and yet they chose wrong. They were given all that is necessary, but still enabled to choose.

Lucifer and Michael were both created good, one fell, one didn't.

In other words, we all have the capability of choosing to be faithful or unfaithful. In that sense, I see men as blank sheets.

I think everything God creates is good because He is Good. I agree that we have freewill, but our behavior does not define us - God's love for us defines us. Even Satan is basically good because He was created by God, unfortunately for him, he has choosen to follow his own will/ego/false self rather than relying on God for his redemption. His fate, which is to spend etenity apart from God is sealed.

We have the cboice to act in concordane we the rest of creation in a manner that God intended or to miuse creation for our own selfish purposes. Apart from God we are incapable of choosing unselfishly, but through Christ's example and the power of the HS we are now free from sin (only choosing between lesser good choices) because we can now choose the good once more

 

[biggandyy]

Are there any Reformed voices here in CyB???

 

[Prentis]

We wish to see the catholic church 'reformed'? That is like shuffling a deck of cards. The cards are still the same!

In Christ it is not reformation (which could end up in deformation), but transformation.

The catholics sold salvation, so we make it free. Instead of realizing WE give freely the life God has given us, and GOD requires everything for salvation. One is a holding back of what we must give, and the other is a delusion that God does not require us to follow the Spirit if we are to be his sons.

 

[biggandyy]

Nothing to do with Romanism...

 

[Prentis]

I think everything God creates is good because He is Good. I agree that we have freewill, but our behavior does not define us - God's love for us defines us. Even Satan is basically good because He was created by God, unfortunately for him, he has choosen to follow his own will/ego/false self rather than relying on God for his redemption. His fate, which is to spend etenity apart from God is sealed.

We have the cboice to act in concordane we the rest of creation in a manner that God intended or to miuse creation for our own selfish purposes. Apart from God we are incapable of choosing unselfishly, but through Christ's example and the power of the HS we are now free from sin (only choosing between lesser good choices) because we can now choose the good once more

Man can always choose the good. I have two pieces of bread, my neighbor is dying of hunger, my needs are met, and I am safe, he is not... Ok, I'll share!

We ARE known by our fruit, brother.

But in Christ we can not only choose the good, but the perfect! It is made available to us to choose that which is from the nature of God, without spot or blemish.

Nothing to do with Romanism...

Huh?? :blink:

 

[biggandyy]

The "Reformed" I am talking about deals with theology and doctrinal developments post Luther. Reformation of the Reformation, as it were. It was in all the papers.

 

[Prentis]

The "Reformed" I am talking about deals with theology and doctrinal developments post Luther. Reformation of the Reformation, as it were. It was in all the papers.

Ok. And what would that Reformation of the Reformation result in? Spiritual revival I hope!

 

[Rach1370]

I don't see us as good with a tendency to sin. Rather I see us as a blank sheet, with potential to be loving OR wicked, in both cases being plagued by a sin nature.

The sin nature, we did not choose, but were born in it. Then, we can either call it as it is, and as the publican, see the evil of this nature and it's ways, or we can love it, and roll in it like pigs in the dung!

With the sin nature, we cannot be as good is. We can though, choose to be honest and just with what we have, which includes bringing our weaknesses to the light, and being honest about them, rather than hiding them.

In Christ, we can go further, by his power. This old nature can actually be crucified, and yet we live, because we now can live by HIS nature!

It's interesting to wonder if we sin because we're born with a sin nature, or if we were born clear of it, we would still choose to sin like Adam and Eve. I think when it comes down to it, it's something we can't know. I suspect the later, myself, it's what I see scripture teaching. It took God living as a man to live a sin free life. He wasn't just a man born without a sin nature; the plan had to include Jesus. That, to my mind, tells us that even born 'good' we would all choose sin. Augustine once said:
" pride is like a mother who is pregnant with all the other sins."
I think we would all stumble to pride, which inevitably leads to all other sins. By default we all think more of ourselves than others. It is only the new nature we receive in Christ that gives us any hope to be humble, to see others first. It is only in Him that we can put that old sin nature to death and live a life that leads us in His footsteps.

The "Reformed" I am talking about deals with theology and doctrinal developments post Luther. Reformation of the Reformation, as it were. It was in all the papers.

I'm reformed!

 

[biggandyy]

Thank goodness! Someone with whom can I can speak of spiritual meat and not be flabbergasted by all the milk addicts.

 

[aspen]

The term Reformed is often used by Protestants to signify doctrinal allegiance to some form of Calvinism. Many 'Reformed' Christians believe that a Calvinist understanding of TULIP is necessary to be a serious Christian. Personally, I think it takes away from what Luther did in his attempt to reform the Catholic Church.

Apart from Christ all humans can do is choose between lesser good choices. That is what Paul said when he wrote that we were once slaves to sin.

Thank goodness! Someone with whom can I can speak of spiritual meat and not be flabbergasted by all the milk addicts.

Why do you use Paul's words to exalt yourself over others?

 

[biggandyy]

No, those are my sentiments but phrased in a way to illicit an emotional response by the hoy-paloy... i.e.

 

[Prentis]

Thank goodness! Someone with whom can I can speak of spiritual meat and not be flabbergasted by all the milk addicts.

Do you think the cynical-trolling attitude is a reflection of the character of Christ?

 

[Rach1370]

Disregarding any cheeky replies, you have to admit, that it can be refreshing and encouraging to converse with someone who is like minded. It can be tiring on this board, when all you want to do is discuss the miracle of Jesus in your life, to have to instead spend all your time 'discussing' what the Bible does or doesn't mean. I'm not saying that those who consider themselves 'reformed' have the rights to salvation...that is absurd!! But while it can be a good thing to content for what we see as truth, it is also a very good thing to be encouraged by those who have the same theology. All on this board should gather under Jesus, and in many ways we do, but there is still arguing. So we should also be pleased that there are those here who, under Jesus, have similar beliefs...be that Reformed, Catholic, Protestant, Calvinist or Arminian....

 

[aspen]

Disregarding any cheeky replies, you have to admit, that it can be refreshing and encouraging to converse with someone who is like minded. It can be tiring on this board, when all you want to do is discuss the miracle of Jesus in your life, to have to instead spend all your time 'discussing' what the Bible does or doesn't mean. I'm not saying that those who consider themselves 'reformed' have the rights to salvation...that is absurd!! But while it can be a good thing to content for what we see as truth, it is also a very good thing to be encouraged by those who have the same theology. All on this board should gather under Jesus, and in many ways we do, but there is still arguing. So we should also be pleased that there are those here who, under Jesus, have similar beliefs...be that Reformed, Catholic, Protestant, Calvinist or Arminian....

I agree. Unfortunately, Protestantism is dialectic....one of the consequences of this is that people are taught to only value unique POV regarding scripture. - or they look to fall in line with the most ridged/oldest/authoritative person, which is tough to identify online. At the same time, sola scriptura teaches that the Bible only has one meaning! Therefore, Christians try to be unique and conformists at the same time. So no one wants to talk about points they agree upon, or they feel awkward agreeing with any point at all.