The depravity of men (and to what degree it goes)

[Prentis]

Disregarding any cheeky replies, you have to admit, that it can be refreshing and encouraging to converse with someone who is like minded. It can be tiring on this board, when all you want to do is discuss the miracle of Jesus in your life, to have to instead spend all your time 'discussing' what the Bible does or doesn't mean. I'm not saying that those who consider themselves 'reformed' have the rights to salvation...that is absurd!! But while it can be a good thing to content for what we see as truth, it is also a very good thing to be encouraged by those who have the same theology. All on this board should gather under Jesus, and in many ways we do, but there is still arguing. So we should also be pleased that there are those here who, under Jesus, have similar beliefs...be that Reformed, Catholic, Protestant, Calvinist or Arminian....

I understand there is comfort in this. We can't always be at war, there is a time to rest! As long as this resting is in brotherly love...

I do agree with you Rach that, if untrained, we cannot hold God's glory. As Adam and Eve, we fall, because our character is not like his. This is why, even though one has experienced Christ, he may still sin.

But that is also why we must move on to maturity of character, adding to faith.

 

[Nomad]

. . . sola scriptura teaches that the Bible only has one meaning!

Where, exactly, are you getting this as a "teaching" of Sola Scriptura? This doctrine has a specific historic and confessional definition. What source do you reference to substantiate the statement you made above?

 

[aspen]

Where, exactly, are you getting this as a "teaching" of Sola Scriptura? This doctrine has a specific historic and confessional definition. What source do you reference to substantiate the statement you made above?

The very definition of the phrase 'the bible alone' indicates that it is the final authority - can the final authority be divided?

 

[Rach1370]

I agree. Unfortunately, Protestantism is dialectic....one of the consequences of this is that people are taught to only value unique POV regarding scripture. - or they look to fall in line with the most ridged/oldest/authoritative person, which is tough to identify online. At the same time, sola scriptura teaches that the Bible only has one meaning! Therefore, Christians try to be unique and conformists at the same time. So no one wants to talk about points they agree upon, or they feel awkward agreeing with any point at all.

I've never heard any of that about Protestantism, really. I do agree that within "Christianity" there is alot of language used that can be confusing or just plain misleading. Like the 'charismatic' label. Most people hear that and think of people jumping up and down or falling over...way over the top woo hoo stuff! But really, all Christians need to be 'Charismatic'...we all believe that the Spirit is an active force, both God and personal, living within us. I say I'm a reformed Protestant because I'm not Catholic, but really all I mean is that I believe the Bible is God's word to us and is therefore the highest authority on earth. That I follow Jesus and believe Him to be the God-man and that salvation is through Him; faith in Him alone and through the grace He offers us. Under those labels I gave is about a hundred little theological things, and yes, I do have an opinion on all of them, but really, it's about Jesus. I believe the Bible is true and every word important because it teaches us of the work God did leading up to the advent of Jesus, and of Jesus' teaching and work here. All history can be useful and informing, but we must allow that history is influenced by those who write it. The Bible is to be regarded as complete and true because it is from the perspective of God. Men may have put pen to paper, but the words they wrote came from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is the only history on the planet that can be regarded as perfect and true. And what it speaks of is the most important thing ever...God's love and rescue of us!

 

[aspen]

I've never heard any of that about Protestantism, really. I do agree that within "Christianity" there is alot of language used that can be confusing or just plain misleading. Like the 'charismatic' label. Most people hear that and think of people jumping up and down or falling over...way over the top woo hoo stuff! But really, all Christians need to be 'Charismatic'...we all believe that the Spirit is an active force, both God and personal, living within us. I say I'm a reformed Protestant because I'm not Catholic, but really all I mean is that I believe the Bible is God's word to us and is therefore the highest authority on earth. That I follow Jesus and believe Him to be the God-man and that salvation is through Him; faith in Him alone and through the grace He offers us. Under those labels I gave is about a hundred little theological things, and yes, I do have an opinion on all of them, but really, it's about Jesus. I believe the Bible is true and every word important because it teaches us of the work God did leading up to the advent of Jesus, and of Jesus' teaching and work here. All history can be useful and informing, but we must allow that history is influenced by those who write it. The Bible is to be regarded as complete and true because it is from the perspective of God. Men may have put pen to paper, but the words they wrote came from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is the only history on the planet that can be regarded as perfect and true. And what it speaks of is the most important thing ever...God's love and rescue of us!

Being rooted in a dialetic tradition is not a bad thing - it is just a reflection of western thought at the time - it was a time when reason was re-emerging - humanism was being explored.

As far as the rest of your post.....i am really happy to hear that your foundation of doctrine and theology compliments your deep and sanctifying relationship with Christ. I had no doubt about it btw

 

[elysian]

I've always believed that man is totally depraved, incapable of doing any good save through God's grace. Calvin and Luther were right - we're all sinners.

 

[Prentis]

I've always believed that man is totally depraved, incapable of doing any good save through God's grace. Calvin and Luther were right - we're all sinners.

'We're all sinners' is true in the sense that all have sinned, and none are righteous like GOD.

But the thing is that there is power available in God to be like him, that's what is called grace. If we draw near by faith, we can tap into it. If we surrender ourselves to God, he is faithful to transform us into his image, to make us like him.

Blessings...

 

[prism]

"Surrender to God' is never mentioned in Scripture as a Christian mandate. If it is please show me.
In Romans 6 it speaks of 'yielding' our members to God. The word 'yield' is a military term meaning 'present' your members (for His service).

Depravity extends to affect every part of our being to the extent that apart from God's grace we all would be 'seekers of anything else but God' and hiding from even His loving presence let alone God as Judge, Study Adam and Eve immediately after the Fall to see human depravity in action.

 

[Nomad]

How depraved is man? This should pretty much cover it. . .

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

 

[danicachristian]

Depraved of what? Where all the same in the eyes of our good Lord.

 

[jiggyfly]

'We're all sinners' is true in the sense that all have sinned, and none are righteous like GOD.

But the thing is that there is power available in God to be like him, that's what is called grace. If we draw near by faith, we can tap into it. If we surrender ourselves to God, he is faithful to transform us into his image, to make us like him.

Blessings...

What if we die before this "grace" transforms us?

 

[prism]

Depraved of what? We're all the same in the eyes of our good Lord.

True in a sense,
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Rom 5:12)

 

[justaname]

All things are created by Him for Him. John 1:3 Col 1:16
It is Him who grows that which is in you. 1 Corinthians 3:6-7
We live in God's design, which I see as beauty. Yet I dare not fall to the illusion that sin is accepted.

"Surrender to God' is never mentioned in Scripture as a Christian mandate. If it is please show me. In Romans 6 it speaks of 'yielding' our members to God. The word 'yield' is a military term meaning 'present' your members (for His service). Depravity extends to affect every part of our being to the extent that apart from God's grace we all would be 'seekers of anything else but God' and hiding from even His loving presence let alone God as Judge, Study Adam and Eve immediately after the Fall to see human depravity in action.

Matthew 16:25
Matthew 10:39
Luke 9:24
I see a clear mandate here from the Teacher

 

[Templar81]

Does the sin nature change when we are Baptised?

XVI. Of Sin after Baptism.
Not every deadly sin willingly committed after Baptism is sin against the Holy Ghost, and unpardonable. Wherefore the grant of repentance is not to be denied to such as fall into sin after Baptism. After we have received the Holy Ghost, we may depart from grace given, and fall into sin, and by the grace of God we may arise again, and amend our lives. And therefore they are to be condemned, which say, they can no more sin as long as they live here, or deny the place of forgiveness to such as truly repent.

39 Articles of religion

 

[biggandyy]

No.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

No, those are my sentiments but phrased in a way to illicit an emotional response by the hoy-paloy... i.e.

:lol: Well played sir, well played.

 

[biggandyy]

A troll's work is never done

 

[Prentis]

What if we die before this "grace" transforms us?

For those who die without knowing the gospel, mercy is given to those who loved. Loving your neighbor, who you see, is the fulfillement of the law. Thus the men who loved those arouned them and showed mercy will receive mercy. They are of the second ressurection and attain to life.

Those who do come to the knowledge of truth in this life are then called to walk according to the level they have attained. We are to walk by the grace given us, so that we would be counted as faithful servants and not cast out. Those who do this, and overcome, will rule and reign with Christ.

 

[biggandyy]

For those who die without knowing the gospel, mercy is given to those who loved. Loving your neighbor, who you see, is the fulfillement of the law. Thus the men who loved those arouned them and showed mercy will receive mercy. They are of the second ressurection and attain to life.

They may indeed receive mercy, but they will in no means receive salvation.

 

[Prentis]

They may indeed receive mercy, but they will in no means receive salvation.

That's like saying he'll have mercy on them but he certainly won't be merciful! :huh: It's not biblical either!

Rather the word says the righteous are 'scarcely saved', in the sense of barely. So those who do what is right DO receive salvation, but just....

Whereas we are called to 'so great a salvation', and God is able to 'save us to the uttermost (highest point)'. Salvation is to have life, which God can grant to them. What they do not receive is glory, which is reserved to those who suffer with Christ.