The Didache and the Law

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tom55

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Hardly any churches follow this anymore:


15 Appoint Bishops for Yourselves
15:1 Appoint bishops for yourselves, as well as deacons, worthy of the Lord, of meek disposition, unattached to money, truthful and proven; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers.
15:2 Do not despise them, after all, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers.

Sooooo many "churches" now days get started by a person who feels "the call" to start a church. They are probably good public speakers and/or look good on TV so the "church" grows and people throw money at them like they are rock stars. I guess the preacher is kind of like a rock star since a lot of those churches have bands (guitars/drums/piano) with flashing lights on a stage loud music, jumping up and down like at a concert. Sure doesn't sound like the 'church' He started!!
 

FHII

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Veni_Creator_Spiritus said:
What about the element of your fallible interpretation of the bible?

And of the didache for that matter?
Veni... I gave one or two examples of why it is not valid as it is against the Bible. Would you care to discuss something or talk about my fallibility? In other words.... Do you have anything worthwhile to add?
 
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FHII said:
Veni... I gave one or two examples of why it is not valid as it is against the Bible. Would you care to discuss something or talk about my fallibility? In other words.... Do you have anything worthwhile to add?
FHII, you gave us your fallible interpretation of it comparing it to your likewise fallible interpretation of the bible.

Was Paul commissioned with the others in John 20? Or did he have a special assignment?

And Paul was likely already dead when the Didache was written.

Did you know that the early church post Paul had a problem with being infiltrated by non-Christians and by flat out heretics? Rules and guidelines needed to be established. For example, confession was general and given in front of entire congregations. But then that had to be changed as non-Christians were attending service just to get dirt on Christians.

Read early documents like the Didache and like this http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html (especially the bottom part about church service and sacraments)

Then compare it to your church service and ask yourself why they aren't more similar?
 

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The Barrd said:
The Didache Online

How did the first Christians practice their faith? Click here to find more resources about Ancient Christianity, and use Coupon Code ANCIENT10 to save $10 if you spend $30 or more.


The Didache, an early handbook of an anonymous Christian community, "is the most important book you've never heard of." It spells out a way of life for Jesus-followers, including how to show one another the love of God, how to practice the Eucharist, and how to take in wandering prophets.

Likely written before many of the New Testament books, this little-known text can enlighten the way that Christian are church, today.

Tony Jones's new book, The Teaching of the Twelve, unpacks this ancient document with insight and perspective, and traces the life of a small house church in Missouri that is trying to live according to its precepts.

Included in the book is a new, contemporary English translation of the Didache or listen to Tony Jones read the complete text or download a pdf.



The text of the Didache, translated and edited by Tony Jones, is under the protection of a Creative Commons license. For guidelines on using this text, please click on the link below.




The Didache - The Complete Text
1 There Are Two Ways 1:1 There are two ways, one of life and one of death! and there is a great difference between the two ways.

1:2 The way of life is this: First, you shall love God who made you. And second, love your neighbor as yourself, and do not do to another what you would not want done to you.

1:3 The meaning of these sayings is this: Bless those who curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those who persecute you. For what reward is there for loving those who love you? Do not the heathens do the same? But you should love those who hate you, and then you shall have no enemies.

1:4 Abstain from fleshly and bodily lusts: If someone strikes your right cheek, turn the other also, and be perfect. If someone forces you to go one mile, go two. If someone takes your cloak, give also your coat. If someone takes from you what is yours, don't ask for it back. You really cannot.

1:5 Give to every one who asks you, and don't ask for it back. The Father wants his blessings shared. Happy is the giver who lives according to this rule, for that one is guiltless. But the receiver must beware; for if one receives who has need, he is guiltless, but if one receives not having need, he shall stand trial, answering why he received and for what use. If he is found guilty he shall not escape until he pays back the last penny.

1:6 However, concerning this, there is a saying: "Let your alms sweat in your hands until you know to whom to give them."


2 The Second Commandment

2:1 The second commandment of the teaching is this:

2:2 Do not
commit murder; do not commit adultery; do not corrupt boys; do not have illicit sex; do not steal; do not practice magic; do not practice witchcraft; you shall not murder a child, whether it be born or unborn. Do not covet the things of your neighbor.

2:3 Do not swear or bear false witness. Do not speak evil of others; do not bear grudges.

2:4 You should not be double-minded or double-tongued, for a double-tongue is a deadly snare.

2:5 Your speech should not be false nor empty, but fulfilled by action.

2:6 Do not be covetous, or greedy, or hypocritical, or malicious, or arrogant. Do not have designs against your neighbor.

2:7 Hate no one; correct some, pray for others, and some you should love more than your own life.


3 My Child, Flee Evil

3:1 My child, flee evil of all kinds, and everything like it.

3:2 Don't be prone to anger, for anger leads to murder. Don't be jealous or quarrelsome or hot-tempered, for all these things lead to murder.

3:3 My child, don't be lustful, for lust leads to illicit sex. Don't be a filthy talker or allow your eyes a free reign, for these lead to adultery.

3:4 My child, don't observe omens, since it leads to idolatry. Don't be an enchanter, or an astrologer, or a purifier, or be willing to see or hear about these things, for these all lead to idolatry.

3:5 My child, don't be a liar, since a lie leads to theft. Don't love money or seek glory, for these things lead to thievery.

3:6 My child, don't grumble, since it leads to blasphemy, and don't be self-willed or evil-minded, for all these things lead to blasphemy.

3:7 On the contrary, be gentle, since the gentle will inherit the earth.

3:8 Be long-suffering and pitiful and guileless and gentle and good, and with trembling, treasure the words you have received.

3:9 Don't exalt yourself or open your heart to overconfidence. Don't be on intimate terms with mighty people, but with just and lowly ones.

3:10 Accept whatever happens to you as a blessing, knowing that nothing comes to pass apart from God.


4 My Child, Remember

[4:1 My child, remember day and night him who speaks the word of God to you, and honor him as the Lord. For wherever his lordship is spoken of, there he is.]

4:2 Seek each day the faces of the saints, in order that you may be refreshed by their words.

4:3 Do not initiate divisions, but rather bring peace to those who contend against one another. Judge righteously, and do not take social status into account when reproving for transgressions.

4:4 Do not waver in your decisions.

4:5 Do not be one who opens his hands to receive, or closes them when it is time to give.

4:6 If you have anything, by your hands you should give ransom for your sins.

4:7 Do not hesitate to give, and do not complain about it. You will know in time who is the good Rewarder.

4:8 Do not turn away from one who is in want; rather, share all things with your brother, and do not say that they are your own. For if you are sharers in what is imperishable, how much more in things which perish!

4:9 Do not remove your hand from your son or daughter; teach them the fear of God from their youth.

4:10 Do not give orders to your servants when you are angry, for they hope in the same God, and they may lose the fear of God, who is over both of you. God is surely not coming to call on us according to our outward appearance or station in life, but to them whom the Spirit has prepared.

4:11 And you, servants, be subject to your masters as to God's image, in modesty and fear.

4:12 You should hate all hypocrisy and everything which is not pleasing to the Lord.

4:13 Do not in any way neglect the commandments of the Lord, but keep what you have received, neither adding nor taking away anything.

4:14 In your gatherings, confess your transgressions, and do not come for prayer with a guilty conscience.

This is the way of life!


5 The Way of Death

5:1 The way of death, on the other hand, is this: It is evil and accursed—murders, adulteries, lust, illicit sex, thefts, idolatries, magical arts, sorceries, robberies, false testimonies, hypocrisy,double-heartedness,deceit, haughtiness, depravity, self-will, greediness, filthy talking, jealousy, over-confidence, loftiness, boastfulness—those who do not fear God.

5:2 The way of death is the way of those who persecute the good, hate the truth, love lies, and do not understand the reward for righteousness. They do not cleave to good or righteous judgment; they do not watch for what is good, but for what is evil. They are strangers to meekness and patience, loving vanities, pursuing revenge, without pity for the needy and oppressed. They do not know their Creator; they are murderers of children, destroyers of God's image. They turn away from those who are in need, making matters worse for those who are distressed. They are advocates for the rich, unjust judges of the poor. In a word, the way of death is full of those who are steeped in sin. Be delivered, children, from all of this!


6 See That No One Leads You Astray

6:1 See that no one leads you astray from the way of this teaching, since all other teachings train you without God.

6:2 For if you are able to bear the entire yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect; but if you are not able, then at least do what you can.

6:3 Concerning food, do what you are able to do and be on guard against meat offered to idols, for that is to worship dead gods.


7 Concerning Baptism

7:1 Concerning baptism, you should baptize this way: After first explaining all things, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in flowing water.

7:2 But if you have no running water, baptize in other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, then in warm.

7:3 If you have very little, pour water three times on the head in the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

7:4 Before the baptism, both the baptizer and the candidate for baptism, plus any others who can, should fast. The candidate should fast for one or two days beforehand.


8 Your Fasts and prayers

8:1 Your fasts should not be with the hypocrites, for they fast on Mondays and Thursdays. You should fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.

8:2 And do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in the gospel: Our Father in heaven, holy be your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us enough bread day-by-day. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one.

8:3 Pray this three times each day.


9 Concerning the Eucharist

9:1 Concerning the Eucharist, give thanks this way.

9:2 First, concerning the cup: We thank you, our Father, for the holy vine of David your servant, which you made known to us through Jesus your servant. To you be the glory forever.

9:3 Next, concerning the broken bread: We thank you, our Father, for the life and knowledge which you made known to us through Jesus your servant. To you be the glory forever.

9:4 Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let your church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into your kingdom. To you is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ forever.

9:5 Allow no one to eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized in the name of the Lord. For concerning this, the Lord has said, "Do not give what is holy to dogs."


10 After the Eucharist

10:1 After the Eucharist when you are filled, give thanks this way:

10:2 We thank you, holy Father, for your holy name which you enshrined in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality that you made known to us through Jesus your servant. To you be the glory forever.

10:3 You, Master Almighty, have created all things for your name's sake. You gave food and drink to all people for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to you; but to us you freely give spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Jesus, your servant.

10:4 Before all things we thank you because you are mighty. To you be the glory forever.

10:5 Remember, Lord, your church. Deliver it from all evil and make it perfect in your love, and gather it from the four winds sanctified for your kingdom which you have prepared for it. For Yours is the power and the glory forever.

10:6 Let grace come, and let this world pass away!

Hosanna to the Son of David! If anyone is holy, let him come; if anyone is not holy, let him repent. Maranatha! Amen.

[10:7 But permit the prophets to make thanksgiving as much as they desire.]


11 Welcome the Teacher

11:1 Welcome the teacher when he comes to instruct you in all that has been said.

11:2 But if he turns and trains you in another tradition to the destruction of this teaching, do not listen. If he teaches so as to increase righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord.

11:3 Act according to the precepts of the gospel concerning all apostles and prophets:

11:4 Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord.

11:5 But he must not remain more than one day, or two, if there's a need. If he stays three days, he is a false prophet.

11:6 And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread to last him until his next night of lodging. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet.

11:7 In addition, if any prophet speaks in the Spirit, you shall not try or judge him; for every sin will be forgiven, but this sin cannot be forgiven.

11:8 But not everyone who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; only he is a prophet who has the ways of the Lord about him. By their ways will the false prophet and the prophet be known.

11:9 Any prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it; if he does, he is indeed a false prophet.

11:10 And any prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet.

11:11 When a prophet, proved true, works for the mystery of the church in the world but does not teach others to do what he himself does, he will not be judged among you, for his judgment is already before God. The ancient prophets acted in this way, also.

11:12 But whoever says in the Spirit, "Give me money,"or something else like this, you must not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for the sake of others who are in need, let no one judge him.


12 Welcome Anyone Coming in the Name of the Lord

12:1 Welcome anyone coming in the name of the Lord. Receive everyone who comes in the name of the Lord, but then, test them and use your discretion.

12:2 If he who comes is a transient, assist him as far as you are able; but he should not remain with you more than two or three days, if need be.

12:3 If he wants to stay with you, and is a craftsman, let him work for his living.

12:4 But if he has no trade, use your judgment in providing for him; for a Christian should not live idle in your midst.

12:5 If he is dissatisfied with this sort of an arrangement, he is a Christ peddler. Watch that you keep away from such people.


13 Every Genuine prophet

13:1 Every genuine prophet who wants to live among you is worthy of support.

13:2 So also, every true teacher is, like a workman, entitled to his support.

13:3 Every first fruit, therefore, of the products of vintage and harvest, of cattle and of sheep, should be given as first fruits to the prophets, for they are your high priests.

13:4 But if you have no prophet, give it all to the poor.

13:5 If you bake bread, take the first loaf and give it according to the commandment.

13:6 If you open a new jar of wine or of oil, take the first fruit and give it to the prophets.

13:7 If you acquire money or cloth or any other possession, set aside a portion first, as it may seem good to you, and give according to the commandment.


14 On the Lord's Day

14:1 On the Lord's day, gather yourselves together and break bread, give thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure.

14:2 However, let no one who is at odds with his brother come together with you, until he has reconciled, so that your sacrifice may not be profaned.

14:3 For this is what the Lord has said: "For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the of hosts. . . . For I am a great King, says the Lord of hosts, and my name is reverenced among the nations."


15 Appoint Bishops for Yourselves

15:1 Appoint bishops for yourselves, as well as deacons, worthy of the Lord, of meek disposition, unattached to money, truthful and proven; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers.

15:2 Do not despise them, after all, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers.

15:3 And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the gospel. But to anyone who acts amiss against another, let no one speak to him, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the gospel of our Lord.


16 Watch Over Your Life

16:1 Watch over your life, that your lamps are never quenched, and that your loins are never unloosed. Be ready, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

16:2 Come together often, seeking the things that are good for your souls. A life of faith will not profit you if you are not made perfect at the end of time.

16:3 For in the last days false prophets and corrupters will be plenty, and the sheep will be turned into wolves, and love will be turned into hate.

16:4 When lawlessness increases, they will hate and persecute and betray one another, and then the world-deceiver will appear claiming to be the Son of God, and he will do signs and wonders, and the earth will be delivered into his hands, and he will do iniquitous things that have not been seen since the beginning of the world.

16:5 Then humankind will enter into the fire of trial, and many will be made to stumble and many will perish; but those who endure in their faith will be saved from under the curse itself.

16:6 And then the signs of the truth will appear: the first sign, an opening of the heavens; the second sign, the sounding of the trumpet; and the third sign, the resurrection of the dead—

16:7 not of every one, but as it is said: "Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him."

16:8 Finally, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory."
Barrd, do you have permission from the owners to post this much info onto our forum? :huh: or does your country not follow copyright laws???
 

FHII

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Veni_Creator_Spiritus said:
FHII, you gave us your fallible interpretation of it comparing it to your likewise fallible interpretation of the bible.

Was Paul commissioned with the others in John 20? Or did he have a special assignment?

And Paul was likely already dead when the Didache was written.

Did you know that the early church post Paul had a problem with being infiltrated by non-Christians and by flat out heretics? Rules and guidelines needed to be established. For example, confession was general and given in front of entire congregations. But then that had to be changed as non-Christians were attending service just to get dirt on Christians.

Read early documents like the Didache and like this http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html (especially the bottom part about church service and sacraments)

Then compare it to your church service and ask yourself why they aren't more similar?
Do you know when it was written? The advertisement seems to indicate it was mist likely written before many NT Boijs, and you are saying it was written after Paul died.

The bible says that grevious wolves were already creeping in. Paul said that and gave advice how to deal with it. This is not new infornation to a bible reader.

I stand by what I said: compare what is written in the didache to that which was written in the bible. It simply doesn't line up.
 

tom55

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For the last several months I have been reading early Christian writings focusing mainly on everything that was written by men who walked and talked with the Apostles (Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp) or anything that was written during the Apostles lives such as the Didache. All their writings are very rich in current Catholic or Orthodox teachings. I find it interesting that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have been practicing the same things that these men wrote 2000 years ago AND I am finding that I agree with most of what they preached/practice. The Didache even says, But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, "Give not that which is holy to the dogs."

That means that the early Christians believed/practiced that one has to be baptized BEFORE they could receive the Eucharist AND they believed it to be "holy". To me, Tom55, that STRONGLY suggest they didn't think the Eucharist was a symbol/metaphor or that baptism was just a public pronouncement of your dedication to Christ. Baptism meant something MORE to them than a public display.

I find it surprising that even back then they had a problem with people NOT BELIEVING the Eucharist was His body/blood. Ignatius wrote to the Smyrnaeans: They abstain from the Eucharist...... because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ....." Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion[of Christ] has been revealed to us.....But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils."

Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John and he preached that baptism was necessary before one could receive the body and blood of Christ AND those that speak against "this gift of God, incur death...". Further saying we should "not speak of them" and "avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils." The writings of the early church fathers hold more weight with me than the writings of the men today, 2000 years later.

Truly fascinating to read what the people who walked and talked with the apostles preached/practiced.
 

StanJ

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tom55 said:
I find it surprising that even back then they had a problem with people NOT BELIEVING the Eucharist was His body/blood.
I guess I'm NOT surprised you make this association that is NOT even implied there.
 

tom55

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StanJ said:
I guess I'm NOT surprised you make this association that is NOT even implied there.
I don't understand what your statement means.

I THINK you might be saying that Ignatius was not equating (implying) the Eucharist is His body and blood. However, I could be wrong in what you are trying to articulate.
 

tom55

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StanJ said:
and you consistently feign obtuseness.
I feel as if you are calling me a liar when I tell you I don't understand what you are saying. To be fair to you I edited my post as you were responding to it. Here is the rest of my post.


I THINK you might be saying that Ignatius was not equating (implying) the Eucharist is His body and blood. However, I could be wrong in what you are trying to articulate.
 

StanJ

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tom55 said:
I feel as if you are calling me a liar when I tell you I don't understand what you are saying. To be fair to you I edited my post as you were responding to it. Here is the rest of my post.
I THINK you might be saying that Ignatius was not equating (implying) the Eucharist is His body and blood. However, I could be wrong in what you are trying to articulate.
Well you would be wrong, again, but I'm not going to be your English teacher.

You see, if you think on it a little, you do end up understanding.
 

tom55

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StanJ said:
Well you would be wrong, again, but I'm not going to be your English teacher.

You see, if you think on it a little, you do end up understanding.
I am just trying to be fair to you and not put words in your mouth.



Eucharist: the Christian ceremony commemorating the Last Supper, in which bread and wine are consecrated and consumed. The consecrated elements, especially the bread.
 

StanJ

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tom55 said:
I am just trying to be fair to you and not put words in your mouth.
Eucharist: the Christian ceremony commemorating the Last Supper, in which bread and wine are consecrated and consumed. The consecrated elements, especially the bread.
Thanks, but trust me, I wont let you do that.
Eucharist is an RCC term. Christians call it communion. Maybe you can explain to us what you mean by the communion being consecrated?
 

tom55

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StanJ said:
Eucharist is an RCC term. Christians call it communion. Maybe you can explain to us what you mean by the communion being consecrated?

LOL....The very first Christians used the word Eucharist....unless you are saying that the writers of the Didache, Ignatius or Justin Martyr were not Christians? Consecrated means to make holy.
 

StanJ

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tom55 said:
LOL....The very first Christians used the word Eucharist....unless you are saying that the writers of the Didache, Ignatius or Justin Martyr were not Christians? Consecrated means to make holy.
The very first Christians are in the NT, so show me where that word is used.

Actually there are 4 or 5 connotations to consecrate, and in this case, it is not used to describe communion. How can a mere man make somthing holy in ahy event?
 

tom55

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StanJ said:
The very first Christians are in the NT, so show me where that word is used.

Actually there are 4 or 5 connotations to consecrate, and in this case, it is not used to describe communion. How can a mere man make somthing holy in ahy event?
I apologize. What I mean by "first Christians" are the writings from the early Christians that I mentioned before. As you know they used the word Eucharist when referring to communion.

How does a mere man heal someone? How does a mere man prophesy? How does mere man know what prophesies are from God? How does a mere man know what writings are God breathed? How does a mere man forgive a mans sin or retain another mans sins? How does a mere man raise another man from the dead?
How does a mere man baptize someone and that act causes remission of sins and the person to be saved?
 

StanJ

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tom55 said:
I apologize. What I mean by "first Christians" are the writings from the early Christians that I mentioned before. As you know they used the word Eucharist when referring to communion.

How does a mere man heal someone? How does a mere man prophesy? How does mere man know what prophesies are from God? How does a mere man know what writings are God breathed? How does a mere man forgive a mans sin or retain another mans sins? How does a mere man raise another man from the dead?
How does a mere man baptize someone and that act causes remission of sins and the person to be saved?
Hence my reason for asking, but you still need to SHOW or CITE your sources.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not the same thing as making something holy. Only God can make something holy but God does give us gifts such as prophesying, speaking in tongues, healing, teaching, word of knowledge, and so on.
Baptism doesn't cause remission of sins nor does it cause anyone to be saved. That's the RCC speaking not the Bible. Read Rom 10:9-11.
If you're referring to the baptism of John the Baptist, that was strictly for repentance, not salvation.
 

tom55

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StanJ said:
Hence my reason for asking, but you still need to SHOW or CITE your sources.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not the same thing as making something holy. Only God can make something holy but God does give us gifts such as prophesying, speaking in tongues, healing, teaching, word of knowledge, and so on.
Baptism doesn't cause remission of sins nor does it cause anyone to be saved. That's the RCC speaking not the Bible. Read Rom 10:9-11.
If you're referring to the baptism of John the Baptist, that was strictly for repentance, not salvation.
My source for the early Christian writings is earlychristianwritings.com.

YOU say "Baptism doesn't cause remission of sins nor does it cause anyone to be saved." However scripture disagrees with you: Luke 3:3 and Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 and 1 Peter 3:21

I am not talking about John the Baptist. I am talking about what Jesus told his disciples to do in Mathew 28:19 and the Apostles practiced in Luke 10 in which it is said, "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." YOU are the one not hearing Him.

When are you going to start showing or citing your sources?
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
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tom55 said:
My source for the early Christian writings is earlychristianwritings.com.
Then post the link.

tom55 said:
YOU say "Baptism doesn't cause remission of sins nor does it cause anyone to be saved." However scripture disagrees with you: Luke 3:3 and Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 and 1 Peter 3:21
It doesn't disagree with me it confirms what I said read the scriptures slowly if you have to but see that being baptized is the result of confessing Jesus as your Savior and that this is what forgive him. This was the ministry that John the Baptist was called to. No one is baptized and less they're willing and able to confess Jesus as your Savior.

tom55 said:
I am not talking about John the Baptist. I am talking about what Jesus told his disciples to do in Mathew 28:19 and the Apostles practiced in Luke 10 in which it is said, "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." YOU are the one not hearing Him.
Well Luke 3:3 is about John the Baptist, but regardless, the Gospel message, when received and implemented, is what saves people because they are accepting Jesus as their Savior. I'm surprised you really don't understand what the gospel message effectually does? You seem to also not recognize that Jesus himself never baptized one single person. And that he himself said he is the way the truth and the life. So if you really think that water baptism save someone you really are not understanding the Gospel message of Jesus Christ.

tom55 said:
When are you going to start showing or citing your sources?
What do you need quoted or cited?