The Divinity of Christ

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Wormwood

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The doctrine of the divinity of Christ is the major dividing wall between historic Christianity and Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah's Witnesses argue that Jesus is not divine, but is a created being. Perhaps you have had them come to your door with a list of their arguments of why Jesus is not God. One of the key Scriptures on this topic is John 1:1.

The NIV translates John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

In the Greek text, the passage looks like this: Eν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
Some JW's will appeal to this verse to try to make their case and generally their explaination goes like this:

Eν ἀρχῇ ἦν λόγος, καὶ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν λόγος.

The words that are underlined are called "definite articles." In English, "the" is a definite article. So when I say, "I want the truck" I have a definite truck in mind. I don't want any truck, I want THE truck. An indefinite article in English is "a." So if I say, "I want a truck" I do not have a definite truck in mind. Any truck will do. So in the above passage we see, the logos, the logos, the theos, the logos (or , the Word, the Word, the God, the Word). The Jehovah Witness will point out that the verse literally reads, "In the beginning was THE Word and THE Word was with THE God and The Word was God. Thus, they will argue that the absense of the definite article for God at the end of the sentence demands an indefinite article. So, they say, the verse should read, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was A god.

For someone who is unfamiliar with Greek, this rationale would seem to make perfect sense. Of course, if the definite article is missing, it would mean its not referring to THE God, but a god. However, this is not how the Greek works. The absence of a definite article does not mandate the presence of an indefinite article. Moreover, the Jehovah's Witnesses neglect a linquistic rule known as Colwell's Rule. This rule argues that a definite predicate nominative has a definite article when it follows a copulative verb, but not when it precedes a copulative verb.

Without getting overly technical, in the Greek language, the word order is flexible. In English, the subject comes first, then the verb then the object or predicate nominative. So if I say, John is a teacher....John is the subject because it comes first, while "a teacher" is a predicate nominative" because it names the subject. However, in Greek, the subject can be at the end of the sentence because subjects, verbs, objects, etc. are identified by their roots, not by their location in the sentence.
So, to put it simply, the definite article is used or not used based on word order in some cases and is not always directly related to whether or not it is definite or indefinite.

So, in sum, the JW argument on John 1:1 is errant. The lack of a definite article does not mandate an indefinite article. The definite article is missing due to Greek grammatical rules, not because John was referring to Jesus as merely "a god." Dont allow a 2 minute Greek lesson from a Jehovah's Witness trick you into thinking that the Greek of John 1:1 supports their view that Jesus is not divine. It does not.
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

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Nicely put. :) Excellent thread to incite discussion and feedback. I bet there will be some interesting dialoguing taking place. I look forward to watching it. SHALOM
 

Robertson

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Thank you for the English lesson! I'm not saying that sarcastically, I really did enjoy reading that. I finally understand what a definite and indefinite article is!

I think the Jehovah Witness group just lacks the understanding that Jesus was the Great I AM, or the god of the Old Testament. But I think that this topic eventually leads us to consider the badly formulated doctrine that is known as the trinity. Trinity is a word that is not mentioned in the Bible and though some may argue with out-of-context scriptures that the concept is there, the real word that is used to describe the gods that govern our universe is termed the Godhead. These are the beings that conversed with each other during the creation of the earth and more especially during the fall of our first parents in the garden, wherein they say, "Man has become as one of US."

It isn't until the 2nd and 3rd centuries after Christ that the trinity doctrine was formulated in order to try and turn a polytheistic religion into a monotheistic one. Jesus was clearly teaching that His Father had sent him to preform the will of the Father and that this Father that He speaks of was His god and our god. Who does Jesus worship and obey? He worships and obeys His god, the Father. In all that Jesus did... praying, obeying, teaching, etc.... it was all done in the name of this other being that Jesus calls the Father. Clearly they are two different and separate beings that speak of each other, speak to each other, and where one of them follows, obeys, and receives His power and glory from the other.

Anyway, so I'm saying that anyone that looks at John 1:1 through the lens of the man made doctrine of the trinity will certainly misunderstand that passage. I'm not a Jehovah Witness and I agree with what you are saying about the translation from the Greek. I am actually fascinated by the linguistics behind it and again I say thank you for sharing. I do think, however, that if Christians gained a correct understanding of the Godhead that they would understand that John 1:1 is telling us that Jesus was around in the beginning of the creation of this earth, that He was with His Father, and that He holds the title of God. Just as every member of our senate is called "Senator", every member of the Godhead is called "God."
 

Pelaides

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I think alot of the confusion has to do with the presence of the Holy Spirit.If you read Acts5:4,we see peter claiming that he is God,It does not mean he really thought he was God,but that the spirit of God was in him.
Anyone who is rewarded with the Holy Spirit can be considered a son of God.
 
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Their bible say "In the beginning was the word and the word was a god" this makes no sense what so ever, when did God create the word to be peganly worshiped. The Word was God and is God.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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You have to start early with Charles Russel in the 1800\s when he started what is known today as the JW's

He did not understand the trinity .... he thought it was a three headed god invented by the Catholics

he did not like the preaching about hell

He did not like the fact that God was described by many different names in the bible ... including "Lord"

He did not like the fact that God was called Lord and Jesus was called Lord and so on.

He had an "aha moment" when he read where Moses asked God "Whom do I say you are" ?

God replied "I AM WHO I AM"

Moses told his people "HE IS WHO HE IS" has a message for us.

The phrase HE IS WHO HE IS is roughly written as YHWH which we spell JEHOVAH in English

Charles Russel pounced on the name JEHOVAH as though it was the only proper name for God

When he encountered snags like "The word was God" .... he changed it to "The word was a god" and then tried to say Jesus was actually Michael the archangel in human form

He also taught there was no hell and no spirit or soul remaining after death

He also taught that the only "heavenly bound" people were the 144.000 .... which of course were his followers.

it was all bullsit then and it is bullsit now

When they come to my doorstep I am very kind and ask them ..... Do you acknowledge Jesus is a Savior ... they say yes ...... do you acknowledge Jesus is "a god" .... they say yes

Then I ask them to read to me Hosea 13:4 from their own bible

“But I have been JEHOVAH your God
ever since you came out of Egypt.
You shall acknowledge no God but me,
no Savior except me.


I finish by telling them according to Hosea if Jesus is Savior he has to be God or we must not acknowledge him
 

aspen

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It is hard to fathom the damage Miller did to Protestantism through his prodigy; the JWs and Adventists and all their illegitimate offspring
 

Pelaides

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aspen2 said:
It is hard to fathom the damage Miller did to Protestantism through his prodigy; the JWs and Adventists and all their illegitimate offspring
If someone wrote a post like this talking about the catholics,you would run crying to the moderaters.
 

This Vale Of Tears

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aspen2 said:
It is hard to fathom the damage Miller did to Protestantism through his prodigy; the JWs and Adventists and all their illegitimate offspring
The Millerites were a product of a greater deception, the dispensationalist pre-tribulation rapture heresy that started in the UK in the 19th century and spread to America. Put in context, this was certainly not what Christians have believed throughout the history of the church or even after the Reformation. Predicting the date of the "rapture" is simply error springing from error; the next logical step when a school of doctrine is wrung from the Bible not unlike the U.S. Supreme Court wringing from the Constitution a hidden "right" to abortion. Even when Miller was discredited, the appetite for deception gave rise to the infamous Ellen G. White and her mouth foaming rants that those who worshipped on Sunday took the mark of the beast like the Catholic Church. And so even today, the SDA's having reacquired some semblance of orthodoxy, are forever queered in their doctrine because of their false foundation.
 

Rex

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aspen2 said:
It is hard to fathom the damage Miller did to Protestantism through his prodigy; the JWs and Adventists and all their illegitimate offspring
But it rather pails in comparison to the damage the popes have done through out the years to Christianity.
No other religious organization has done more damage, to those that follow Christ in the eyes of the secular world than the RCC.

It's used as the example of negative epitome for Christianity or anything closely resembling it. Thank You RCC you make my testimony so easy....NOT!
 

This Vale Of Tears

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Rex said:
But it rather pails in comparison to the damage the popes have done through out the years to Christianity.
No other religious organization has done more damage, to those that follow Christ in the eyes of the secular world than the RCC.

It's used as the example of negative epitome for Christianity or anything closely resembling it. Thank You RCC you make my testimony so easy....NOT!
You are SDA aren't you? This wouldn't surprise me in the least.
 

Rex

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This Vale Of Tears said:
You are SDA aren't you? This wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Nope, and not that it makes any difference buy I was baptized in 79 at harvest christian fellowship in Riverside CA.

I don't affiliate myself with any church but I know you would be interested in if and where I was baptized. But the 7th day home base or whatever they call it was located in Lome Linda and I did go one time to a Saturday service.

I refuse to be a member of any church unlike yourself, being someone that enjoys being associated with things you have no control over, now that sounds like a fools game to me.
But maybe they give you a pretty silver star to wear on your shirt sleeve, a cross or a funny hat.
Nearly as foolish as believing salvation can only be found as a member of the RCC in good standing. So spare me your attempt to pigeon hole me and then taint me with the actions of the church I profess to be a follower of, I mean that is partly the reason you ask isn't it?

Your the not so bright individual that chooses to profess to be a member of the worlds best example of church hypocrisy in all of the worlds history.
Wear it proudly
 

mjrhealth

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When one gets to heaven, you wil not find, protestants, or Jews, or Jw's or catholics or any other man created denominations, you will only find " Chiristians". As for Jesus, he was created from teh Word of God which Mary received, and in which a seed was sown and life was created just as it is written,

" the Words that I speak they are Spirit and they are Life".

In all His LOve
 

afaithfulone4u

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Why don't we just think of Jesus as who the Bible says he is.. THE LIVING WORD who became flesh. The Very Word that the Father speaks to create all things, and that holds all things together. The same Word the Father spoke when he said LET THERE BE LIGHT and the Light is the Word of Truth and we know him in his flesh being as THE CHRIST.
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
KJV
John 1:1-5
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
KJV
1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
KJV
Rev 19:11-15
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
KJV
John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV
 

aspen

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Good OP, wormwood.
 

Robertson

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Can someone point me to the verse where it mentions this word "trinity". I cant seem to find it.
 

afaithfulone4u

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Robertson said:
Can someone point me to the verse where it mentions this word "trinity". I cant seem to find it.
You have trouble believing that the Holy Ghost, The Father, and The Word are all in all one God?
Jesus said:
Matt 28:20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
KJV
1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
KJV

Why is it that man can believe that the Holy Spirit when seen in scripture is God yet is called the Holy Spirit.... but they can NOT accept THE WORD who we call Jesus THE CHRIST as God? And how does God create all things?? Doesn't it use HIS WORD?

1 John 1:1-2
1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
KJV
John 1:1-3
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
KJV
 

Pelaides

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afaithfulone4u said:
You have trouble believing that the Holy Ghost, The Father, and The Word are all in all one God?
Jesus said:
Matt 28:20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
KJV
1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
KJV

Why is it that man can believe that the Holy Spirit when seen in scripture is God yet is called the Holy Spirit.... but they can NOT accept THE WORD who we call Jesus THE CHRIST as God? And how does God create all things?? Doesn't it use HIS WORD?

1 John 1:1-2
1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
KJV
John 1:1-3
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
KJV
Hello you seem to know the scriptures very good,can you find at least 3 verses in which Jesus says he is God.
 

sniper762

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jesus is not god, the father...............nor is he the holy ghost.......................he is the son of god

I am also one of god's children...........he is my heavenly father......... I am one WITH god, but I am not god
 

afaithfulone4u

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Pelaides said:
Hello you seem to know the scriptures very good,can you find at least 3 verses in which Jesus says he is God.
He is the Word of God which makes him equal with God for a man is always the same as his word for the word of a man reveals THE MAN.
Perhaps you would like to see 5 verses where Jesus, THE WORD OF THE LORD is in the OT and I would like you to take note of the spelling of Lord God. We are told that ALL ANGELS are to worship Jesus
Deut 3:24
24 O Lord GOD, thou hast begun to shew thy servant thy greatness, and thy mighty hand: for what God is there in heaven or in earth, that can do according to thy works, and according to thy might?
KJV
Josh 7:7
7 And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord GOD, wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side Jordan!
KJV
Judg 16:28
28 And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.
KJV
Ps 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
KJV
Ps 110:4-5
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
KJV

Jesus being Lord IS THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD for The Father does EVERYTHING ACCORDING TO AND BY HIS WORD WHICH IS THE CHRIST OF GOD. The Father and His Word are one, you can not separate them!

And perhaps you will believe the Word as it is written:
Heb 1:6-10
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
KJV