The doctrine of the trinity, it's origins

[reformed1689]

Creatures bleed, Christ bled.

Christ was in the beginning with God. He humbled himself to leave the throne and come and live the life of a man. This is plain throughout Scripture. To deny this means you do not know Jesus Christ. Period.

 

[101G]

The Breaking Down of the Trinity​

now that we see the Father and Son problem of God coming in flesh, now lets look at what the trinity calls the third person, and it’s problems there.

Matthew 1:19 "Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

well the other problem of the trinity doctrine is the Holy Spirit. the trinity doctrine also is saying, the Father and the son are not the same the same person but have the same Nature, is also saying the the Holy Spirit who is also a separate and distinct person and having the same nature, is neither the Father nor the Son. lets see if this is so. Matthew 1:19 "Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
the problem here in the trinity doctrine is the scriptures states the Father is the Holy Spirit, whom the doctrine states is also a separate and distinct person.
the problem with the trinity doctrine the bible says the Holy Ghost is the Father. for it was the Holy Spirit that conceived the child in Mary’s womb. anyone knows the conceiver of a child is the “FATHER”. so again we have a breaking down of the three person concept is to be false “Doctrine”. scripture, Hebrews 1:5 "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (side note, angels don’t have flesh and blood.. for they are not begotten).

Hebrews 1:6 "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Hebrews 1:7 "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 1:9 "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows”.

thy God?, but didn’t the doctrine of the trinity say it’s one NATURE? so how can the Son say “my” Father and having the same nature? for is not God a Spirit? but the trinity believer might say well it’s separates PERSONS, well that want work because the Bible say the son is the Father’s/God OWN ARM, so how can one be separate from their “OWN ARM?”…. . well

see the mess that men have brought upon their ownselves? scripture, Isaiah 66:4 "I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not".

so again this is where “Diversified Oneness” comes in at to make clear who is the Real Father. JESUS.


PICJAG.

 

[Grailhunter]

Thank you for your input....like I said this is something I am in prayer about and I know He will speak the Truth....
If you would take a moment read this:
In the medical field (I am a graduate RN) we are taught to treat the WHOLE person that is defined as body, mind, and spirit.
So if we have a patient we treat all 3 parts of what makes this person a WHOLE being....example someone is admitted in the hospital for treatment....the complaint is chest pain so we run tests to diagnose what is causing it...this is the body
We also do an assessment of their history by asking questions that address their lifestyle such as home environment, relationships, diet.... (this is mind)....and then finally we respect their religious beliefs and support them in whatever faith they adhere to.....(this is spirit)
What research has shown if you only treat the physical problem and unknowingly this person is under a lot of stress, has no home, and maybe gets a meal that day and maybe not then you have only treated the symptom and not the cause.
Also, if you focus on the body and mind (physical and mental health) and neglect the spirit then you continue to have reoccurances of the same problem....'
So bottom line when we treat patients we treat all 3 aspects of their WHOLE being.

Now here is why I mentioned all this....we are each individual but with 3 specific and separate aspects that must work together in unity to be healthy....if any one of the 3 are neglected it affects the WHOLE being.

So I know we are not the Godhead but we are created in His image and likeness so I can see where people can conclude God is 3 persons in one...because we are essentially 3 in 1.....

Still working on Grailhunter's Corner...soon

 

[101G]

Christ was in the beginning with God. He humbled himself to leave the throne and come and live the life of a man. This is plain throughout Scripture. To deny this means you do not know Jesus Christ. Period.

Good, I'm glad you said that which is true he came as a man. but may I ask, being with the Father and having the same Nature, explan how the son, "who humble" himself, and was made G2758 κενόω kenoo, or "empty", how did he do that while having the same nature as the Father and the Holy Spirit"

PICJAG

 

[reformed1689]

Good, I'm glad you said that which is true he came as a man. but may I ask, being with the Father and having the same Nature, explan how the son, "who humble" himself, and was made G2758 κενόω kenoo, or "empty", how did he do that while having the same nature as the Father and the Holy Spirit"

PICJAG

You are asking a human to explain the supernatural??

 

[DNB]

Well, Peter didn't include it when he instructed them how to get saved. He said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall "receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38-39). And Paul said, " “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household.” (Acts 16:31).

No mention of the trinity there! But when Paul wrote his letters to the churches, he was not writing to the unsaved, but to believers already converted to Christ, and so He could deal with more weighty matters which neither he or Peter could do for unsaved or those newly converted to Christ - although Paul had issues with the Corinthians because in many ways they were behaving like spiritual children instead of being the mature believers they should be. I guess that he would have been frustrated with them, wondering after all his, Peter's and Apollos' teaching they had learned basically nothing!

I felt like that just these last two weeks when I learned that I had been sharing the gospel all the wrong way and treating people with no Judeo-Christian world view as if they believed the Bible, and learned why when they said they didn't believe the Bible I was scuppered with no answers. This was because I was trying to share the gospel with neo-pagan "Greeks" as if they were "Jews" who knew and believed the Scriptures. I was trying to use 1950s evangelism techniques to 1980s neo pagans! Didn't work! I have now discovered how Paul preached to the pagan Greeks at Athens, and he went about it in a totally different way.

So, we never stop learning, even though like me, after 50 years in the faith! Sometimes I feel like I have gone three steps forward and two back!

I know, the walk can be very frustrating at times. Just when we think that we either grasped or achieved something related to His Word, God proves us wrong.
Yes, Paul was imparting some profound wisdom, and effective evangelization techniques, when he conveyed how he becomes all things to all men, in order that he may save as many as possible. Words to live by!

 

[101G]

You are asking a human to explain the supernatural??

first thanks for the reply, second, the answer is in the bible.

PICJAG.

 

[DNB]

Thank you for your input....like I said this is something I am in prayer about and I know He will speak the Truth....
If you would take a moment read this:
In the medical field (I am a graduate RN) we are taught to treat the WHOLE person that is defined as body, mind, and spirit.
So if we have a patient we treat all 3 parts of what makes this person a WHOLE being....example someone is admitted in the hospital for treatment....the complaint is chest pain so we run tests to diagnose what is causing it...this is the body
We also do an assessment of their history by asking questions that address their lifestyle such as home environment, relationships, diet.... (this is mind)....and then finally we respect their religious beliefs and support them in whatever faith they adhere to.....(this is spirit)
What research has shown if you only treat the physical problem and unknowingly this person is under a lot of stress, has no home, and maybe gets a meal that day and maybe not then you have only treated the symptom and not the cause.
Also, if you focus on the body and mind (physical and mental health) and neglect the spirit then you continue to have reoccurances of the same problem....'
So bottom line when we treat patients we treat all 3 aspects of their WHOLE being.

Now here is why I mentioned all this....we are each individual but with 3 specific and separate aspects that must work together in unity to be healthy....if any one of the 3 are neglected it affects the WHOLE being.

So I know we are not the Godhead but we are created in His image and likeness so I can see where people can conclude God is 3 persons in one...because we are essentially 3 in 1.....

Yes, but distinctly and divisibly, three-in-one. One component is not complete without the other two, in the analogy that you gave. One cannot exist without the other two. This is heretical according to trinitarian beliefs, that state that each person is God. That is, each person or entity is entirely complete, self-sufficient and perfect within themselves, ...which is why I pointed out the redundancy aspect. As you probably have heard, even the most astute trinitarian theologians, will concede that there is no viable analogous comparison. Thus, it remains a mystery that can only be apprehended by acquiescing, not comprehended with wisdom and faith.
And yet, one cannot be convicted of something that they can't understand, for it makes a mockery of faith.

 

[DNB]

Christ was in the beginning with God. He humbled himself to leave the throne and come and live the life of a man. This is plain throughout Scripture. To deny this means you do not know Jesus Christ. Period.

You mock God's justice and wisdom. God came to earth in order to do what? Be obedient to Himself, and love Himself with all His heart, mind and soul? All this to redeem man, who failed by not being obedient to His Creator, and not loving Him as he ought to?
Sorry 1689, but you've shown very little insight as to what you understand of condemnation and redemption, wisdom and justice, in regard to God's Word.

 

[101G]

The Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit.​

Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Joel 2:29 "And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.


Here the Holy Spirit will be poured out on Pentecost. and we can read of this pouring out in Act chapter 2. was this fulfilled by the Lord Jesus himself? yes, scripture,

John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:22 "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
("us" here in the verse is the disciples right then and there)

here is the key, Judas, not Iscariot asked the Lord Jesus how, how, how, would he, ”MANIFEST”, himself. HOLD it. the question was to Jesus, “how would YOU, JESUS, manifest, yourself, yourself, yourself, unto them.

Judas, point blank asked the Lord Jesus how he was going to MANIFST … “HIMSELF” … to them. my, God a blind man can see this. “Manifest?”, well here it is, he, Jesus as the Holy Spirit “Manifested" himself in the Spirit gifts which we have today. and this “Manifestation” is supported by his apostle.

1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal”. there is that “manifestation” Judas asked about. BINGO. for the Lord Jesus clearly said, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever". (HOLD IT, give to who? you, the disciples who was with him when he said this.)

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you". Many today say Christ is in them, and they say the Holy Ghost is in them. but didn't Jesus send the Holy Spirit? yes, and now he is come also, so that's two person inside you? are you kidding. and notice the Father is in us also correct?, listen, John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him". so one have all three in you right? are you still kidding yourself. no only the Holy Spirit is in us, who is Jesus, Listen. John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you”. My God how plain can one get, “I will come to you”. this is audience relevance in real time. one cannot miss that.


PICJAG.

 

[reformed1689]

You mock God's justice and wisdom. God came to earth in order to do what? Be obedient to Himself, and love Himself with all His heart, mind and soul? All this to redeem man, who failed by not being obedient to His Creator, and not loving Him as he ought to?
Sorry 1689, but you've shown very little insight as to what you understand of condemnation and redemption, wisdom and justice, in regard to God's Word.

Except what I believe is what the Bible says. You defy and deny the Bible. You need to look no further than John's Gospel to see that Jesus is God.

The Word Became Flesh: John 1:1-18 by David Taylor Sermon and Teaching Archive • A podcast on Anchor

 

[101G]

Thus, it remains a mystery that can only be apprehended by acquiescing, not comprehended with wisdom and faith.
And yet, one cannot be convicted of something that they can't understand, for it makes a mockery of faith.

ERROR, there is no MYSTERY, scripture, Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse". anytime someone say it a Mystery, that's just and "Excuse".

And yet, one cannot be convicted of something that they can't understand, for it makes a mockery of faith.

another ERROR, scripture, Romans 2:16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel". READ!.

and the solution to not knowing, or understanding, scripture, James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

James 1:6 "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

James 1:7 "For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord".

ye have not because ye ask not.

PICJAG.

 

[DNB]

ERROR, there is no MYSTERY, scripture, Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse". anytime someone say it a Mystery, that's just and "Excuse".

another ERROR, scripture, Romans 2:16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel". READ!.

and the solution to not knowing, or understanding, scripture, James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

James 1:6 "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

James 1:7 "For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord".

ye have not because ye ask not.

PICJAG.

Well, after that atrocious exegesis, i definitely won't be asking you to impart any insight or wisdom, that's for sure!

 

[101G]

I'm beginning to see that a lot of .... christian think or believe that is if they don't read or see, or have someone to tell them that a certian doctrine is correct or wrong, they can just stick their heads in the sand and declare innocent in not knowing the truth. well let me give you a wake up call. anything done without or not in Faith is sin, even sticking one head in the sand. Romans 14:22 "Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Romans 14:23 "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
so there is no excuse. the Lord jesus said, John 5:39 "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John 5:40 "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John 5:41 "I receive not honour from men.
John 5:42 "But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

this is true, for if one have the Love of God, they would be seeking, and searching to see if what they heard or read it true or not. and only a few are doing just that.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

Well, after that atrocious exegesis, i definitely won't be asking to impart any insight or wisdom, that's for sure!

I'm only the messenger, so don't shoot me, .... I just deliever the mail.

PICJAG.

 

[DNB]

I'm only the messenger, so don't shoot me, .... I just deliever the mail.

PICJAG.

Apparently you tampered with it!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Thank you for your input....like I said this is something I am in prayer about and I know He will speak the Truth....
If you would take a moment read this:
In the medical field (I am a graduate RN) we are taught to treat the WHOLE person that is defined as body, mind, and spirit.
So if we have a patient we treat all 3 parts of what makes this person a WHOLE being....example someone is admitted in the hospital for treatment....the complaint is chest pain so we run tests to diagnose what is causing it...this is the body
We also do an assessment of their history by asking questions that address their lifestyle such as home environment, relationships, diet.... (this is mind)....and then finally we respect their religious beliefs and support them in whatever faith they adhere to.....(this is spirit)
What research has shown if you only treat the physical problem and unknowingly this person is under a lot of stress, has no home, and maybe gets a meal that day and maybe not then you have only treated the symptom and not the cause.
Also, if you focus on the body and mind (physical and mental health) and neglect the spirit then you continue to have reoccurances of the same problem....'
So bottom line when we treat patients we treat all 3 aspects of their WHOLE being.

Now here is why I mentioned all this....we are each individual but with 3 specific and separate aspects that must work together in unity to be healthy....if any one of the 3 are neglected it affects the WHOLE being.

So I know we are not the Godhead but we are created in His image and likeness so I can see where people can conclude God is 3 persons in one...because we are essentially 3 in 1.....

Hi, H2S, I would have a hard time abandoning the traditional view of the Godhead--three divine Persons in one God. The only alternatives I can see to this trinitarian view would be either tritheism, the belief that there are three Gods, or the idea that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God. I really can't subscribe to either of these beliefs based on my readings of the scriptures.

I don't believe that the Trinity is something our finite minds can fully grasp, so I think it's a mistake to try and make perfect sense of it using human reasoning alone. But I applaud you for seeking God about this, and I pray that He will give you the understanding you need.

 

[DNB]

Except what I believe is what the Bible says. You defy and deny the Bible. You need to look no further than John's Gospel to see that Jesus is God.

The Word Became Flesh: John 1:1-18 by David Taylor Sermon and Teaching Archive • A podcast on Anchor

Sorry, I only went up to 12 mins. These are some of the assertions that you made, that i will address:
1. Miracles, or 'signs of Christ' do not prove his deity. He performed all that was already done, as far as the nature of the miracle is concerned (Elijah, Elisha, Moses), and promised that we will do more.
2. God did not 'raise himself' from the dead. This is absurdity, which is discerned at an elementary level. Meaning, no absolution for man, if the dead don't rise, but only the immortal, ...get it?
3. The 'I am' statements are complete eisegesis. There is nothing in the text or context, that warrants such an allusion to Exodus 3:14
4. John summed up his Gospel with the following (paraphrase) '...purpose of my Gospel is that you may believe Jesus is the Christ, and may have life through him...' We all know that 'Christ' does not mean deity, but anointed, and secondly, what a rather paramount point to omit, if Jesus were God?
5. 'No man can take away our sin', was not the point of Christ's death, it was to abrogate the Law. God decided what was sufficient to do so. As he accepted bulls and goats to do the same in the OT. You're regurgitating clichés, with no proper comprehension. Yes, rescinding the Law required perfection, but not from the Judge or Legislator, from the guilty party, humanity. Yes, Christ attained perfection.
6. The Word became flesh, is the profundity of God's divine plan. He was the first-born of creation, and yet, he became flesh, or was born, after 4,000+ years of creation and human history. The mystery of Christ is in his chronology, not his ontology.

You trinitarians are desperate and frivolous, ...verging on blasphemy, if not so. Seriously!

Question; around 10:15 you said 68% percent of evangelicals affirm the deity of Christ, then immediately after, you say that 68% deny it. I assume that 'affirm' was the mistake?

 

[101G]

Hi, H2S, I would have a hard time abandoning the traditional view of the Godhead--three divine Persons in one God. The only alternatives I can see to this trinitarian view would be either tritheism, the belief that there are three Gods, or the idea that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God. I really can't subscribe to either of these beliefs based on my readings of the scriptures.

I don't believe that the Trinity is something our finite minds can fully grasp, so I think it's a mistake to try and make perfect sense of it using human reasoning alone. But I applaud you for seeking God about this, and I pray that He will give you the understanding you need.

first thanks for the post, and good judgement. I look at theses things also, and did what the bible say do as H2S is doing, 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good". I examine every doctrine on the Godhead that I could find, and as the church at Ephesus, said, "they could not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars". I found all the doctrine on the Godhead to be liars, even the belove doctrine at that time I held , the trinity. so I went to God, and trust me it's no cake walk, (because I was so indoctrinated in the trinity), but God is greater that an false doctrine, so I asked God to reveal the truth and teach it to me concering his Godhead. and when one is serious/in Faith, God responds. and when he finally broke me free of the false doctrine I beleved fully in oh what a relife it was to be made free. now it's a joy to speak God word without apprehension or fear. as the old saying go, "why sell something you have no "KNOWLEDGE" about. when one knows then one can work in freedom, and in Joy.

Long ago, a pastor of a church said this to me,"Faith is blind, just believe", well I found out from God Faith sees very well and is not blind.

PICJAG

 

[reformed1689]

Sorry, I only went up to 12 mins. These are some of the assertions that you made, that i will address:
1. Miracles, or 'signs of Christ' do not prove his deity. He performed all that was already done, as far as the nature of the miracle is concerned (Elijah, Elisha, Moses), and promised that we will do more.
2. God did not 'raise himself' from the dead. This is absurdity, which is discerned at an elementary level. Meaning, no absolution for man, if the dead don't rise, but only the immortal, ...get it?
3. The 'I am' statements are complete eisegesis. There is nothing in the text or context, that warrants such an allusion to Exodus 3:14
4. John summed up his Gospel with the following (paraphrase) '...purpose of my Gospel is that you may believe Jesus is the Christ, and may have life through him...' We all know that 'Christ' does not mean deity, but anointed, and secondly, what a rather paramount point to omit, if Jesus were God?
5. 'No man can take away our sin', was not the point of Christ's death, it was to abrogate the Law. God decided what was sufficient to do so. As he accepted bulls and goats to do the same in the OT. You're regurgitating clichés, with no proper comprehension. Yes, rescinding the Law required perfection, but not from the Judge or Legislator, from the guilty party, humanity. Yes, Christ attained perfection.
6. The Word became flesh, is the profundity of God's divine plan. He was the first-born of creation, and yet, he became flesh, or was born, after 4,000+ years of creation and human history. The mystery of Christ is in his chronology, not his ontology.

You trinitarians are desperate and frivolous, ...verging on blasphemy, if not so. Seriously!

Question; around 10:15 you said 68% percent of evangelicals affirm the deity of Christ, then immediately after, you say that 68% deny it. I assume that 'affirm' was the mistake?

No, you just deny Scripture.