The doctrine of the trinity, it's origins

[101G]

the question is not hard to answer, I didn't ask nothing about, "Thus Genesis 1:1 focuses on the Godhead, while John 1:1 focus on Christ the Word".
I didn't asked none of that, "I ASKED", is this the same person in John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 who made all things. watch this, YES, it's the SAME Person, so do you agree? YES or NO.

PICJAG

 

[101G]

Truth/Light cast out Lies/Darkness. no answer, because as the scriptures states, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.2
Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie":

the lie here according to some in John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 is, "they are not the same person"....... (smile), lol.

PICJAG.

 

[Dcopymope]

well if "diversified Oneness" a cult, the SAME TRUTH goes to you, if the "Word" in John 1:3 the same Person in Isaiah 44:24 a yes or no will do. here is your big chance to shut a so-called cultist mouth. well ..... your answer please. see, you can easly stop this run amok .... just answer the question with truth.

PICJAG

I already answered this convincingly in many different ways, its just not the answer you want to hear, and that's fine, I don't really care what you believe in the end, as long as it doesn't affect my own salvation. If you're expecting a simple yes or no answer to a complex issue that is really beyond what any of our pea brains can fully comprehend, then you should look elsewhere. You call it "diversified", and I really don't have a problem with the Godhead being referred to in that way, only in how its "diversification" has been defined by your cult. In the Bible, the diversification of the God head is defined as one, yet as distinct persons at the same time. Its akin to a motherboard with many different components for instance. You don't have a real computer without an operating system, without the bios, without the GPU, and without its CPU, and you can't have a CPU without its ram, etc.

They are distinct parts, serving distinct functions, yet they function as a unified entity. The GPU is often understood to be the part that processes data into an image the human eye can decipher, but its the CPU that processes and compiles all that data, that image to be actualized, or rendered on screen by the GPU to start with, and that includes the graphics. So when Isaiah says Jehovah made all things, and when John says the creator is Jesus, both are technically true. They are distinct individuals, serving distinct functions, yet together they form the computer I.E the Godhead. So when the Father spoke all into existence, processed and compiled all the data, the "spoken word", Jesus, then processed that data into a 3D image that can be seen with the naked eye. It is through Jesus, the word of God almighty, as the mediator were all things made and there is nothing made without him that has been made.

 

[101G]

I already answered this convincingly in many different ways, its just not the answer you want to hear, and that's fine, I don't really care what you believe in the end, as long as it doesn't affect my own salvation.

well it do, did you not hear? 2 Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.(Ooop's there it is "that hey might ..... be saved) so yes it do concern all of us our salvation. do not blame me read the scripture...
2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie":

If you're expecting a simple yes or no answer to a complex issue that is really beyond what any of our pea brains can fully comprehend

so we take it then you cannot answer simple "YES" or "No" question.

and if it was so complex as you say why say you answered it already...... something is worng there. if it was so complex and you answered it befor, please post the number please.

In the Bible, the diversification of the God head is defined as one, yet as distinct persons at the same time

did i not say this? you're not reading my posts... my difference is the "Separate" part, as in Persons.

and no, the Godhead is not like a motherboard...lol.

but at least you tried to answer. that I commend you for.look lets have a good conversation ok

understand Dcopymope, the sticking point between you and I are the "SEPARATE" person vs a only "SHARED" person, so lets concentrate on that ok,

the person in John 1:3 is the EQUAL "Share" of God himself in flesh, supportive scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". can you agree here?

PICJAG.

 

[Dcopymope]

so we take it then you cannot answer simple "YES" or "No" question.

Um, no, the real Godhead is more complex than a simple "yes or "no". You're trying to explain this away as if its just addition & subtraction when its really calculus.

and if it was so complex as you say why say you answered it already...... something is worng there. if it was so complex and you answered it befor, please post the number please.

did i not say this? you're not reading my posts... my difference is the "Separate" part, as in Persons.

understand Dcopymope, the sticking point between you and I are the "SEPARATE" person vs a only "SHARED" person, so lets concentrate on that ok,

the person in John 1:3 is the EQUAL "Share" of God himself in flesh, supportive scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". can you agree here?

PICJAG.

......If they are really a "shared" person, the scripture would have said just "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God", and left it at that, not "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God", which clearly paints a depiction that there is an actual distinction between the two.

 

[101G]

If they are really a "shared" person, the scripture would have said just "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God", and left it at that, not "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God", which clearly paints a depiction that there is an actual distinction between the two.

it did, Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". looking at the hebrew, which we can find at https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen1.pdf there two letter not translated, which is the Aleph and the Tav, אֵ ת which is the First and the Last .... in Greek it would translate as Alpha and Omega, in English the First and the Last and the beginning and the end. sound familiar? now the term God is a plurality, listen,
H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

and at the beginning God is not diversified, only until he came in flesh. so your answer is mute.

PICJAG.

 

[Dcopymope]

and at the beginning God is not diversified, only until he came in flesh. so your answer is mute.
PICJAG.

.....Then you are effectively calling John a liar when he describes Jesus as existing with God as the spoken word in the beginning....who only later became flesh. This is not hard to understand, his position was clear on this all the way up revelation. Without the spoken word, without "and God said let there be", there is no creation because the Godhead is incomplete, like a computer without a GPU.

 

[101G]

Then you are effectively calling John a liar when he describes Jesus as existing with God as the spoken word in the beginning....who only later became flesh. This is not hard to understand, his position was clear on this all the way up revelation. Without the spoken word, without "and God said let there be", there is no creation because the Godhead is incomplete, like a computer without a GPU.

(smile),lol, John agree with us, listen John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

see that "WITH" God. now this, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he". see the "WITH" there, the First is "WITH" the Last, as the WORD was "WITH" God right, seems like two person one is next to or "WITH" the other. now this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. BINGO, it's the same PERSON.
see the First was "WITH" the Last in Isaiah 41:4 just as the Word was "WITH" God. as in John 1:1, but in Isaiah 48:12, the First is "ALSO" the Last... .. the SAME person as with the Lord Jesus in John 1:1. see just because you see the title Father and son don't mean it's two "SEPARATE" person.... .. NO, but one Person "diversified" or Shared "WITH" oneself. see how easy "diversified oneness" answered and brought that out. you're still "LOOKING"/walking by flesh sight and not by Faith, when you SEE the titles, Father and son as two SEPARATE person, when in fact it's the same one person only Shared. see that's how I know that the Person in John 1:3 is the same Person in Isaiah 44:24...

see how easy it is to KNOW the TRUTH, and KNOW the TRUTH by scripture.

PICJAG.

 

[Dcopymope]

@101G

Yeah, just like I thought you'd respond, like a broken record. I'll leave you to your "diversified oneness".

 

[101G]

Look, it's getting a little late, and past my bedtime, so think on these things and we can pick this up tomorrow or next time.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

@101G

Yeah, just like I thought you'd respond, like a broken record. I'll leave you to your "diversified oneness".

so that means you cannot answer, nor understand spiritual truth... lol, lol, good night.
as they say the truth hurt, but hell is worest....

PICJAG

 

[Dcopymope]

Look, it's getting a little late, and past my bedtime, so think on these things and we can pick this up tomorrow or next time.

PICJAG.

Yeah, lets hope your bios boots you up in the morning. God forbid that goes haywire.

 

[Dcopymope]

so that means you cannot answer, nor understand spiritual truth... lol, lol, good night.
as they say the truth hurt, but hell is worest....

PICJAG

You mistake just cobbling a bunch of one liners together as "spiritual truth". Anybody can do that, people do it on here routinely. There is not a single burning koala about your post that is original or oozes "spiritual truth", just someone robbing scripture of its context to fit his own personal interpretations, as usual.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC to all,

First I thank my God, who is Lord, and is the saviour of the World, for giving me this assignment.

Last night there was some Posters who asked some good questions, because they knew that the trinity did not have answer to a … LOT of their question, and I commend those posters, and thank I thank God for those poster. because now, many are seeing the trinity for what it really is a false doctrine that has not foundations in the bible, but nothing but a trick of words leading to misunderstanding. in which covers one’s eyes to the truth.

Last night I witness sometime from the trinitarians which I knew was to be true, but until it manifest, then one know for sure. when points was made about God being ONE PERSON in the beginning, before he, God came in flesh I watched the trinity believers gave argument from Ignorance, they really saw that what they was arguing about was from Ignorance, meaning for the first time they saw what they was argument about they had no clue. they didn't know how to argue.

in the John 1:1 verse, it is one of the most diverse, or diversified Oneness scriptures in the bible it’s the turning point in either understanding the Godhead, or misunderstanding the TRUTH. listen, many trinitarians didn’t know from Genesis to Malachi God whom many calls the Father was “by himself” and was “Alone”, no one else . my brother Paul Chrisrensen in another topic hit on this, and got his answer. he asked me about a JW question, was there “a” god, or “a” God “WITH” God as John 1:1 points out. the answer was NO, clearly, God himself says so, listen to the answer to the John 1:1 “a god” question. answer, Deuteronomy 32:39 "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand”. notice God use the term “I”, which is a single person designation. now watch the “I” again in the “A God” question, Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God”. again NO God beside him, a single person.

so clearly God has told us that here is no other person(s) with him from the beginning. but in Genesis 1:1 God clearly tells us that he is a plurality, H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m. אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]…... watch this … of, of, of, HIMSELF. but God also clearly tells us that his plurality/Diversity is not going to happen until he comes as a man, to die for our sins. and this is clearly seen all through out the bible. and John 1:1 is a clear as DAY scriptures which proves this. listen,

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. did one see it, the very last part of the scripture, “ and the Word was God”. how plain can one get, we read but we're not listening to God. understand, the “beginning here, in John 1:1 is not the beginning at Genesis 1:1, but the New beginning for mankind in Christ Jesus God in flesh the second Adam who redeems the whole world, or was reconciling the world unto himself, listen, 2 Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation". NOTICE God was not in JESUS, but in Christ, that body of Flesh. other words God, yes God himself, (as the diversity of himself), die for our sins. see John 1:1 is the “beginning” or the start of the Son of God, scripture, Mark 1:1 "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God”. BINGO, notice the Son of God, not the son of Man, that's why christian need to understand the difference between the "Son of Man", and the "Son of God". for the Son of man was “BEFORE” the Son of God, which was to Come. so what which “WAS” in John 1:1 is NOW with us us as the “Son of God”.

to understand John 1:1 one need to understand 1 John 1:1 listen, "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life". (John was not at Genesis 1:1 to handle, or see God, so the beginning in John 1:1 was not Genesis 1:1).

1 John 1:2 "(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us".

1 John 1:3 "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ". (this is what diversified oneness "declare unto you).

1 John 1:4 "And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

understand, John was not at Genesis 1:1 in the beginning, to handle or see God. but now at John 1:1 that which was not seen is now seen, MANIFESTED so we may see and “KNOW” him, God in flesh. (THIS IS THE DIVERSITY/"OFFSPRING" OF DAVID THAT WE DECLARE UNTO YOU). that’s why John 1:1 states “and was with God”. why? because he is with US now. supportive scripture, Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us”. BINGO.

Now the billion dollar question is how, how did God do it to be with us?. simple to be in what we’re in …. a body of flesh. so now, how did he do that. simple, he“shared”, diversified, that's the plurality of God he had "with" himself in the beginning at Genesis 1:1.now that plurality of himself is manifested in flesh. BINGO.

now today, if one what to "argue from ignorance", one can, or one can argue from truth that in the bible for all to see. as for men 101G will argue from the bible, meaning the TRUTH, not in ignorance. if one cannot believe the bible, who can you believe.


so lets asks the age old question, to get us on the Road of understanding the Godhead, “was God “alone”, and “By Himself” as one person when he “MADE ALL THINGS”. this will answer the John 1:3 and the Isaiah 44:24 question clearly.

Lets no longer argue form Ignorance, but from the bible.

so My Bible argument today will be on the Single Person of God From Genesis 1:1 to Malachi 1:1.


PICJAG.

 

[reformed1689]

Why is it always the ones who play the 'that's just what Scripture says' card, are typically the worst exegetes?
Seriously, I would never employ that type of argumentation knowing how problematic, paradoxical and controversial interpreting Scripture can be.
I've laid out some fundamental contentions about the trinity doctrine, i.e. the redundancy in God's ontology, the futility of God playing Judge, Legislator and sacrifice. The lack of trinitarian nomenclature throughout the entirety of Scripture. Not a single conversion took place using a trinitarian formula or creed. Not a single prayer or doxology from the most eminent men within the Bible, ever mention a triune god. When Paul lays out the demands of the Atonement, not once does he delineate that it required a god-man to redeem us, but emphatically, he expounds the contrary (below quote).
And you say that I deny Scripture.
You are fanatical and dogmatic in your beliefs. I don't believe that God will appreciate you treating His Word in such a radical and reckless manner.

Romans 5:14-21
5:14. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16. Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21. so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The worst exegetes? John 1 flat out says Jesus is God. It cannot be interpreted any other way unless you simply refuse to believe what the Bible says. The Trinity, not the word, but the concept, is CLEARLY evident in both Old and New Testaments. Yes I am dogmatic on this! If you don't acknowledge the Trinity you do not know God. If you do not know God, you are not saved. Period. You need to fall on your knees and seek God immediately!

 

[Joseph77]

simply refuse to believe what the Bible says.

with great sorrow and grief, the condition of most men..... unbelief. (online and outside)

 

[101G]

Lets no longer argue form Ignorance, but from the bible.

Point #1. if God was alone, explain how the Lord Jesus said this. John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”.

here in John 17 we see the same word “WITH” as we see in John 1:1. clearly from previous post we know that “With” do not mean someone standing “next” to someone else, for the scripture, (argument from Bible), in Isaiah 41:4 and Isaiah 48:12 bare this out. so the “With” question has been prove out, that it is the same one person. the “Word” that “was” WITH God is now WITH us as one of us, meaning in a body of flesh as the diversity of himself. with that argument dead, we address the next point.

point #2. knowing that God was alone, when he, "MADE ALL THINGS", then explain why God said this in Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth”.
as posted before, all time is one time for God, he spoke of himself to come. (argument form scripture, Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure”. did not God, in Christ, come in these end times/days? lets see, again argument form scripture, Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets verse 2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds”. one more argument form scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come).

so God was to come, and we know now for John 1:1 that he did come in flesh, like us. so lets go back to Genesis 1:26 and get our answer in Genesis 1:27, listen, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them”.so verse 27 prove God is a “he” and “his” at the making of Man, a single Person. and the Lord Jesus agrees with this assessment by saying this, (argument form scripture, Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female”, BINGO, and Jesus don’t lie. so the argument form scripture is true, that God at Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:26 & 27 is a single “PERSON” God. which eliminates an Persons, meaning more that one who “MADE ALL THINGS”. which answers poin #1.

one might want to re-read this post for clarity.

PICJAG.

 

[Dcopymope]

The worst exegetes? John 1 flat out says Jesus is God. It cannot be interpreted any other way unless you simply refuse to believe what the Bible says. The Trinity, not the word, but the concept, is CLEARLY evident in both Old and New Testaments. Yes I am dogmatic on this! If you don't acknowledge the Trinity you do not know God. If you do not know God, you are not saved. Period. You need to fall on your knees and seek God immediately!

He might as well be a damn muslim since he denies the deity of Jesus Christ, and make that crystal clear that he is one in his profile, if possible. All he did was expose himself as yet another fake Christian as far as I'm concerned.

 

[101G]

Lets no longer argue form Ignorance, but from the bible.

One more point, before questions,
Point #3. if God was “alone” and “by Himself” where was the Son? Answer, God/JESUS, the Holy Spirit is the Son, and this is evidence when he “diversified” himself/Spirit in flesh as a man, hence …. “Son” ….. of Man, that dwelt in a body, …. “Son” … of God. there is the “Son”. always is, and always was, only now Manifested. (argument from scriptures, 1 Peter 1:20 "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you). BINGO, again, God was to come which support Point #1, and Point #2. the “Son” was foreordained to “COME”. again this is the plurality of God to come, or manifest in the end times. understand, before the end times, the Son is the Spirit/”WITH” as John 1:1 points out, meaning that he is the Spirit, that MADE ALL THING who is the LORD, as Father. BINGO this clearly answers John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24.

understand Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool”.

LORD, is Jesus as Spirit/Father. and diversified as Lord, the spirit/Son. look at that again.

LORD is Jesus/the Father without flesh, without bone, and without blood. Lord is Jesus/the Son with flesh, with bone and with blood, at John 1:1 manifested to the world. after his Death and resurrection he is GOD, Revelation 1:1, with flesh, with bone, and without “BLOOD”, got it?.


PICJAG.

 

[101G]

Lets no longer argue form Ignorance, but from the bible.​

POINT #4. when we read do we UNDERSTAND while reading?. as one topic states “Christian don’t know these verse are in the bible. well here’s one a many of a christian must don’t know,

2 Corinthians 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

2 Corinthians 6:18 "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty”.

here clearly, the verse that states our Lord, JESUS, as the Almighty as God. and he, JESUS is saying that he is the Father to all BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS. but did not the bible states, (argument from scriptures, we have ONLY “ONE” Father? scripture, Malachi 2:10 "Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?).

Have we not all one father? so how can the Lord Jesus be Father and be a separate and distinct person from the LORD, all caps who many say is the Father when scripture clearly states that there is only ONE “Father?”. answer because the Lord is LORD, "Diversified". for there is only ONE “Almighty”. but is not the LORD in the OT “LORD”, all Caps the Almighty? lets see (argument from scriptures, Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect”. here God said that he is “THE” LORD, all caps, the almighty. well what about the Lord? (argument from scriptures, Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty”). and Jesus is lord, scripture, John 13:13 "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am".

here Jesus said that he is “THE” Almighty, is there two Almightie? of course Not. only ONE. but is not the Lord Jesus is the Almighty, yes, scripture don’t lie.



PICJAG.