The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[Heyzeus]

I do believe in sola fide, and that those who hear Jesus' words and believe on Him who sent Him get a free pass through judgment (John 5:24 (kjv)...which is not Pauline scripture, per your request).

I suggest you read through my previous posts a little bit more carefully.

What is your problem -- we are discussing the Jesus of Matt/Mark .. not the Jesus of John .. specifically - the Sermon on the Mount.

What is "The Will of the Father" in this Sermon.

Dude .. you can't believe in Sola fide .. and believe that you will have to pass judgement - this is a contradiction. Sola Fide states that you have already passed Judgment .. sure you may have to stand in line .. but when you get to the gates ..you get through automatically. = your deeds are not judged.

 

[justbyfaith]

Ye must be born again = you have to die first in order to be resurrected .. not complicated.

Why though are you running away from the words of Jesus in Matt/Mark - which clearly contradict your interpretation of these other passages.

Further .. you seem to misunderstand what this discussion is about. I have not claimed that "works alone" saves one - Not that I would not make this claim but, this is not the conversation we are having.

What I am saying is that works is a requirement in the salvation formulation put forward by Jesus .. That "Faith Alone" will not do it.

So to clarify A) faith alone B) Faith + Works C) Works

What I am saying is that "Faith alone" is the wrong answer .. not that C is the right answer.

I believe that what is in question is your definition of salvation.

If salvation means entering the kingdom after having been judged, then yes, works are a part of salvation.

But if salvation is the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost in a man's life so that he becomes inclined towards love and good works...no good work that we do is going to obtain that for us...only faith in Jesus Christ (see also 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

John 5:24 (kjv) is clear that we pass from death unto everlasting life from the moment of first faith...

And therefore those who are in Christ (because we believe in Him) will not stand before the great White Throne Judgment....w e will stand before what is called the bema seat of Christ...the teaching on this is found in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

 

[Heyzeus]

Why not? You do not believe that Pauline scripture is the inspired word of God? Then your Christianity is in doubt....see 2 Timothy 3:16.

What is your problem ? Jesus tells us what the will of the Father is in the Sermon on the Mount .. we are not talking about Paul -and of course not all of Paul's writings are "inspired" .. but it doesn't matter.

The question being addressed is "What did Jesus say" ..

So what does Jesus say is "the will of the Father" in the Sermon on the Mount .. the Sermon where this statement comes from..

and why are you so desperate to run away from the teachings of Jesus.

You want to talk Paul .. we can do that .. but this is about what Jesus thought .. not what Paul thought

 

[justbyfaith]

What is your problem -- we are discussing the Jesus of Matt/Mark .. not the Jesus of John .. specifically - the Sermon on the Mount.

There is only one Jesus....the Jesus of Matthew/Mark is the same Jesus as the Jesus of John.

Dude .. you can't believe in Sola fide .. and believe that you will have to pass judgement - this is a contradiction.

I don't see any contradiction there. Our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus, who believe in Christ (Romans 4:7-8).

and why are you so desperate to run away from the teachings of Jesus.

You want to talk Paul .. we can do that .. but this is about what Jesus thought .. not what Paul thought

I have no such desperation...

Jesus gave to Paul his gospel (Galatians 1:12)...so the teachings of Paul are in fact the teachings of Jesus.

 

[justbyfaith]

and of course not all of Paul's writings are "inspired" ..

I'm sorry but this opinion places you outside the realm of what it means to be a Christian.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus validated Peter in John 16:13...and Peter validated Paul in 2 Peter 3:15-16.

 

[Heyzeus]

I believe that what is in question is your definition of salvation.

If salvation means entering the kingdom after having been judged, then yes, works are a part of salvation.

But if salvation is the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost in a man's life so that he becomes inclined towards love and good works...no good work that we do is going to obtain that for us...only faith in Jesus Christ (see also 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

John 5:24 (kjv) is clear that we pass from death unto everlasting life from the moment of first faith...

.

Once again you run from the teachings of Jesus in Matt/Mark - like a scared child hiding in the closet. Notice that I do not do this .. I address your passages directly .. as I will do now. I do not try to deny their existence like you do.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

First thing to learn from this passage is that clearly Jesus is not "The Father" Jesus is depicted as being subordinate to the Father - which is what the Early Church believed.

Second - indeed if all we had was this passage to go buy .. I would agree with you = the passage says what it says .. and this one is quite clear.

But now we have a problem - as this passage contradicts what the Jesus of Mark/Matt says.

 

[Heyzeus]

My Bible does not say...do not call men fools, then proceed to call men foolish.

What ...
Biblical Version do you use, that Does ^ That?

KJV- James 2:
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So What EXACTLY are you are promoting?
Faith is insufficient?
And insufficient For What?
Justification?
Justification to Receive What EXACTLY?
Salvation?
Rewards?
Crowns?
Blessings?

Faith and Works are two Different things.

Identify your position of "WHO" can DO Any Works that ARE satisfactory TO God...?

Glory to God,
Taken

I am not promoting anything. I simply state that John 2 .. along with Matt 7 - calls those who believe in "faith alone" foolish.

It is not like this is not a well known and well established fact within Christianity .. Martin Luther wanted James 2 removed from Canon on this basis.


Are you not aware that the Majority of Christianity does not believe in "Sola fide"

 

[justbyfaith]

Once again you run from the teachings of Jesus in Matt/Mark - like a scared child hiding in the closet. Notice that I do not do this .. I address your passages directly .. as I will do now. I do not try to deny their existence like you do.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

First thing to learn from this passage is that clearly Jesus is not "The Father" Jesus is depicted as being subordinate to the Father - which is what the Early Church believed.

Second - indeed if all we had was this passage to go buy .. I would agree with you = the passage says what it says .. and this one is quite clear.

But now we have a problem - as this passage contradicts what the Jesus of Mark/Matt says.

There is no contradiction...

And Jesus also, you say correctly, that He is not the Father, per se...for He is the Father come in human flesh.

He is distinct from the Father because of the hypostatic union...but Jesus and the Father are in fact the same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4)...because Jesus is God

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you not aware that the Majority of Christianity does not believe in "Sola fide"

Per Matthew 7:13-14.

 

[Heyzeus]

There is only one Jesus....the Jesus of Matthew/Mark is the same Jesus as the Jesus of John.

I don't see any contradiction there. Our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus, who believe in Christ (Romans 4:7-8).

I have no such desperation...

Jesus gave to Paul his gospel (Galatians 1:12)...so the teachings of Paul are in fact the teachings of Jesus.

You are completely desperate .. desperate to avoid the Jesus of Mark/Matt.
The Jesus of Mark/Matt is not depicted the same Jesus as the Jesus of John. Sure these authors may be talking about the same person - but that person is depicted much differently

You are also blind of you can't see the contradiction. You are claiming that if one "believes" - one has then escaped judgement. One does not have to worry about judgement because .. as per John 5 - if you believe you have a free pass through Judgement.

The problem here is this contradicts what Jesus says in Matt/Mark .. and nowhere in Matt/Mark - is it stated that Faith gets one through the gates without having one's deeds judged.

 

[ChristisGod]

What is your problem ? Jesus tells us what the will of the Father is in the Sermon on the Mount .. we are not talking about Paul -and of course not all of Paul's writings are "inspired" .. but it doesn't matter.

It does matter and Peter confirms all of Pauls letter are SCRIPTURE. Your above comment or POV tells me you do not believe Gods word but pick and choose what scripture you believe to fit into your little box. All Scripture is inspired by God 2 Timothy 3:16 which you deny.

2 Peter 3:15-16
and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are also blind of you can't see the contradiction. You are claiming that if one "believes" - one has then escaped judgement. One does not have to worry about judgement because .. as per John 5 - if you believe you have a free pass through Judgement.

The problem here is this contradicts what Jesus says in Matt/Mark

What specifically in Matthew/Mark contradicts this concept?

 

[justbyfaith]

Going to church in a few minutes...so please excuse me if I stop posting after a little while...I will very likely return after about an hour and a half.

 

[Heyzeus]

There is no contradiction...

And Jesus also, you say correctly, that He is not the Father, per se...for He is the Father come in human flesh.

He is distinct from the Father because of the hypostatic union...but Jesus and the Father are in fact the same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4)...because Jesus is God

Of course there is a contradiction .. in John 5 - "Faith is all one needs" .. In Matt 7 - Jesus calls such a belief foolish.

What is "The will of the Father" that Jesus is referring to "In his Sermon" ?

 

[Heyzeus]

Per Matthew 7:13-14.

Thanks for posting a passage that has zero to do with the topic

 

[Heyzeus]

It does matter and Peter confirms all of Pauls letter are SCRIPTURE. Your above comment or POV tells me you do not believe Gods word but pick and choose what scripture you believe to fit into your little box. All Scripture is inspired by God 2 Timothy 3:16 which you deny.

2 Peter 3:15-16
and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

What part of "We are talking about the words of Jesus in Matt/Mark" do you not understand ? I realize that it says different things in other scripture .. no convincing needed.

Why are you running from the words of Jesus in Matt/Mark ?

What is "the will of the Father" in Matt 5-7 - that Jesus is referring to - in Matt 5-7

 

[Ferris Bueller]

James 2: does not mention foolish.

James 2:20
20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?

James 2- is speaking about behaviors between men.

James is talking about how works show you to be righteous (in Christ, of course). And so faith that is alone shows you do not have the righteousness of Christ and are not saved. Paul is talking about how works do not make you righteous and that faith all by itself does that. Two very different arguments.

The saved person is justified by both faith and works. Faith by itself makes him righteous before God. Works show him to be righteous before God. And so a person is justified by both faith and works. If all you have is justification by faith, and not by works too, you show that you aren't really justified by faith apart from works. That kind of faith can not save a person. James calls that dead faith.

 

[Heyzeus]

What specifically in Matthew/Mark contradicts this concept?

I have been over this with you numerous times .. and given examples .. your response has been to run to other parts of the Bible because you can't deal with the teachings of Jesus in his most famous sermon.

What part of "Only those that do the will of the Father" Matt 7:21 do you not understand ?

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So not only does Jesus say that not all of the "Faith alone" crowd will make it .. as obviously the people he is referring to -- those calling "Lord Lord - and prophesying in God's name" are people of Faith. - but this does not help them.

This however, is secondary because Jesus states clearly that "only those that do the will of the Father" make it.

The "Will of the Father" in this sermon is "Works.. works and more works" .. This does not mean that faith is not also a requirement .. but works is definitely included in the salvation formulation given in this Sermon. .. and entire Sermon (rather than one obscure passage) on how to get through the pearly gates.

A Sermon you desperately want to ignore.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yet, the scripture is clear, in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, that if someone does not have gold, sliver, or precious gems to show for their life, yet believes in Jesus, they will still be "saved, yet so as by fire."

No, the passage is not talking about not having works of obedience 'to show for their life' (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc.) but being saved nonetheless. The passage is talking about the saved person having no works of service (evangelism, teaching, encouragement, helps, etc.) but being saved nonetheless.