The Father forgives you iff you forgive others

[TonyChanYT]

Let proposition P = you forgive people.
F = The heavenly Father forgives you.
Matthew 6:

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

P → F

15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

¬P → ¬F
⇒ F → P
The two verses together mean that F ⟷ P.
Therefore, the Father forgives you if and only if you forgive others.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Let proposition P = you forgive people.
F = The heavenly Father forgives you.
Matthew 6:

P → F

¬P → ¬F
⇒ F → P
The two verses together mean that F ⟷ P.
Therefore, the Father forgives you if and only if you forgive others.

There is both a condition and a fact involved, it seems?

The fact is that those who will be saved are those who humble themselves enough to not judge others, choosing instead to rely on God's standard of judgment. They have chosen to live under God's direction and righteousness. The fact is, those who do so will have put themselves under a true standard of righteousness and mercy, and so will be saved.

The condition is that people must choose to put themselves under this standard of divine righteousness. If they don't, they choose to reject God's standard of living, choosing instead to live by their own mind and beliefs. In doing this they separate themselves from God's Word, and therefore fall under His judgment and condemnation.

 

[Tommy Cool]

Let proposition P = you forgive people.
F = The heavenly Father forgives you.
Matthew 6:

P → F

¬P → ¬F
⇒ F → P
The two verses together mean that F ⟷ P.
Therefore, the Father forgives you if and only if you forgive others.

Jesus as addressing Israel …

We are not Israel …our forgiveness is not dependent on forgiving other …we should …. but it’s a higher calling.



What is addressed to the church of God.

Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.



1Jo 2:12

I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

 

[Wrangler]

Yes. If you do not love yourself enough to let go of the bitterness and resentment tearing you down, you have not followed the most basic command to love in the most basic way.

 

[TonyChanYT]

We are not Israel …our forgiveness is not dependent on forgiving other …we should …. but it’s a higher calling.

Are you saying that in our higher calling, even if we don't forgive others, God will forgive us?

 

[marks]

Therefore, the Father forgives you if and only if you forgive others.

This was true under the Law. Now we are admonished to forgive others because we have been forgiven.

Ephesians 4:32 KJV
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

Are you saying that in our higher calling, even if we don't forgive others, God will forgive us?

Hello Tony,
This is a hard saying and all I can say is that our forgiveness and salvation depend on our relationship with The Lord. Nothing else saves but Christ and the cross.

Otherwise, it becomes, "you are saved...IF you do this or do not do that", kind of message, it seems to say...you have to work to keep your salvation and Christ's sacrifice for our sins was for naught...?

It's a tough saying as many people are quite sensitive to others mistreatment, the mistreated one can go on for a very long time with deep pain, ask God to help to truly forgive them and still have hurtful thoughts for the rest of their lives. It's not at all a one time thing for every situation. Deep set resentments from being abused as a child carry into adulthood, or deeply hurt by church's (been there!) feeling ostracized and unwanted and unloved.

So, if our salvation comes only from one source, Jesus, I cannot understand how doing or not being able to do should not enter the picture, IMHO. But then, what of that scripture? There are several ways this is taught, here is one:

"A sin not paid for?
Some explain Matthew 6:15 by saying Jesus died for our sins, but not the sin of unforgiveness. This is contrary to the totality of Christ’s sacrifice. Like the Read the Hard Parts reader who asked the question said, “when Jesus said ‘it is finished’, he meant FINISHED!”

Does Lack of Forgiveness Make Me Lose My Salvation? Matthew 6:15 - Read the Hard Parts

I am always glad to receive a question from a Read the Hard Parts reader about a hard part of Scripture. Recently, a reader asked about Matthew 6:15 which says, “But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” What does this verse mean? Does it mean that […]

readthehardparts.com

I like that you bring up the tough teachings!
Many blessings in Christ!

 

[Tommy Cool]

Are you saying that in our higher calling, even if we don't forgive others, God will forgive us?

Higher calling are my words..
Our trespasses are forgiven... We forgive even as God for Christ sake has forgiven us ... hence, the higher calling.
Our contingent for the Father forgiving us is not by forgiving others.... our forgiveness was made unto us through Christ's accomplishments.

 

[Wrangler]

Otherwise, it becomes, "you are saved...IF you do this or do not do that", kind of message

Which is true. To say that nothing saves but Christ implies universalism is correct doctrine.

I do believe the Apostles would be dumbfounded at the rebellious and childish mentality that we don’t have to lift a finger to be saved. I guess it is a reflection of the pervasive entitlement mentality in our society.

The scenario I compare it to is you are drowning in the ocean during a hurricane. Still, your father begs the Coast Guard to rescue you. They refuse but your father is passionately persistent. They finally agree after much gnashing of teeth.

Enroute to your destination, several veterans get washed over board but they persevere. When they get to you, the hurricane is at its peak, 20 foot waves pound you and the Coast Guard ship that nearly capsizes with every wave.

A brave ensign, who is your actual brother, runs out to the nest to get you, attaches his vest to the fence with a carabiner and throws the life preserver two feet from you in a million to one shot. Few are self-centered enough to claim them reaching out their hand - that ‘work’ - is what saved them. But there you have it.

Only with Christ, it is so much more! He came back from death to save us! We aren’t going to reach out our hand to hold onto dear life cause that would mean we are saving ourselves?! Give me a break!

 

[TonyChanYT]

Hello Tony,
This is a hard saying and all I can say is that our forgiveness and salvation depend on our relationship with The Lord. Nothing else saves but Christ and the cross.

Otherwise, it becomes, "you are saved...IF you do this or do not do that", kind of message, it seems to say...you have to work to keep your salvation and Christ's sacrifice for our sins was for naught...?

It's a tough saying as many people are quite sensitive to others mistreatment, the mistreated one can go on for a very long time with deep pain, ask God to help to truly forgive them and still have hurtful thoughts for the rest of their lives. It's not at all a one time thing for every situation. Deep set resentments from being abused as a child carry into adulthood, or deeply hurt by church's (been there!) feeling ostracized and unwanted and unloved.

So, if our salvation comes only from one source, Jesus, I cannot understand how doing or not being able to do should not enter the picture, IMHO. But then, what of that scripture? There are several ways this is taught, here is one:

"A sin not paid for?
Some explain Matthew 6:15 by saying Jesus died for our sins, but not the sin of unforgiveness. This is contrary to the totality of Christ’s sacrifice. Like the Read the Hard Parts reader who asked the question said, “when Jesus said ‘it is finished’, he meant FINISHED!”

Does Lack of Forgiveness Make Me Lose My Salvation? Matthew 6:15 - Read the Hard Parts

I am always glad to receive a question from a Read the Hard Parts reader about a hard part of Scripture. Recently, a reader asked about Matthew 6:15 which says, “But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” What does this verse mean? Does it mean that […]

readthehardparts.com

I like that you bring up the tough teachings!
Many blessings in Christ!

I have not mentioned "salvation" in the OP. Salvation and Forgiving are two distinct concepts.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Higher calling are my words..
Our trespasses are forgiven... We forgive even as God for Christ sake has forgiven us ... hence, the higher calling.
Our contingent for the Father forgiving us is not by forgiving others.... our forgiveness was made unto us through Christ's accomplishments.

So we don't need to forgive anyone?

 

[Tommy Cool]

So we don't need to forgive anyone?

That is your choice …. It doesn’t really hurt the person you don’t forgive …but it → resentment and contentious anger ….will eat away at you if you harbor those things.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hello Tony,
This is a hard saying and all I can say is that our forgiveness and salvation depend on our relationship with The Lord. Nothing else saves but Christ and the cross.

Otherwise, it becomes, "you are saved...IF you do this or do not do that", kind of message, it seems to say...you have to work to keep your salvation and Christ's sacrifice for our sins was for naught...?

It's a tough saying as many people are quite sensitive to others mistreatment, the mistreated one can go on for a very long time with deep pain, ask God to help to truly forgive them and still have hurtful thoughts for the rest of their lives. It's not at all a one time thing for every situation. Deep set resentments from being abused as a child carry into adulthood, or deeply hurt by church's (been there!) feeling ostracized and unwanted and unloved.

So, if our salvation comes only from one source, Jesus, I cannot understand how doing or not being able to do should not enter the picture, IMHO. But then, what of that scripture? There are several ways this is taught, here is one:

"A sin not paid for?
Some explain Matthew 6:15 by saying Jesus died for our sins, but not the sin of unforgiveness. This is contrary to the totality of Christ’s sacrifice. Like the Read the Hard Parts reader who asked the question said, “when Jesus said ‘it is finished’, he meant FINISHED!”

Does Lack of Forgiveness Make Me Lose My Salvation? Matthew 6:15 - Read the Hard Parts

I am always glad to receive a question from a Read the Hard Parts reader about a hard part of Scripture. Recently, a reader asked about Matthew 6:15 which says, “But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” What does this verse mean? Does it mean that […]

readthehardparts.com

I like that you bring up the tough teachings!
Many blessings in Christ!

That is so well said, Nancy! The Scriptures, including Jesus' words, often reflect abbreviated statements, requiring the listener or reader to understand the full context. In "not forgiving" Jesus would be speaking of those who refuse to submit to God's judgment, and instead, wish to take God's place. In doing so they are actively choosing to live their own life the way they see fit, and not submit to God's requirements for their lives.

It certainly is not a matter of basing our Salvation on works, or on perfection in our ability to "forgive." Some sins committed against us create a lifelong bitterness in us, and is not what Jesus meant by "not forgiving." My opinion only....

 

[Wrangler]

I have not mentioned "salvation" in the OP. Salvation and Forgiving are two distinct concepts.

I don't think so. I believe they are equivelent expressions, like born again and sealed by the HS are equivelent expressions.

The context is sin is what separates us from God. Atonement is a necessity. To expect God to forgive your sins, while you presume to sit in his judgment seat and not forgive others is close to blasphemy and what the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant is all about.

32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.
matthew 18:32-34

 

[TonyChanYT]

That is your choice ….

I always forgive.

It doesn’t really hurt the person you don’t forgive …but it → resentment and contentious anger ….will eat away at you if you harbor those things.

Right. See When do we forgive?

But you don't think it is necessary to forgive because God always forgives you anyway?

 

[Wrangler]

But you don't think it is necessary to forgive because God always forgives you anyway?

It is necessary to forgive. One cannot be a child of God and hold onto resentment. This stops the joy, which is the fruit of the Spirit. It is up to us to complete the circuit.

 

[marks]

Are you saying that in our higher calling, even if we don't forgive others, God will forgive us?

God Himself says that He has forgiven us, and because He has forgiven us that we are also to forgive others. Not under pain of condemnation, but because He is making us to be like Himself in this way.

Much love!

 

[Tommy Cool]

But you don't think it is necessary to forgive because God always forgives you anyway?

Tony …. Keep your day job. You will never be a good Psychic trying to guess what people think.

Instead of trying to force an answer in a.. gotcha … read what I stated.

Our trespasses are forgiven... We forgive even as God for Christ sake has forgiven us ... hence, the higher calling.

 

[Nancy]

Which is true. To say that nothing saves but Christ implies universalism is correct doctrine.

I do believe the Apostles would be dumbfounded at the rebellious and childish mentality that we don’t have to lift a finger to be saved. I guess it is a reflection of the pervasive entitlement mentality in our society.

The scenario I compare it to is you are drowning in the ocean during a hurricane. Still, your father begs the Coast Guard to rescue you. They refuse but your father is passionately persistent. They finally agree after much gnashing of teeth.

Enroute to your destination, several veterans get washed over board but they persevere. When they get to you, the hurricane is at its peak, 20 foot waves pound you and the Coast Guard ship that nearly capsizes with every wave.

A brave ensign, who is your actual brother, runs out to the nest to get you, attaches his vest to the fence with a carabiner and throws the life preserver two feet from you in a million to one shot. Few are self-centered enough to claim them reaching out their hand - that ‘work’ - is what saved them. But there you have it.

Only with Christ, it is so much more! He came back from death to save us! We aren’t going to reach out our hand to hold onto dear life cause that would mean we are saving ourselves?! Give me a break!

So, you then must believe in "salvation by works". TRUE works come naturally AFTER being born of The Spirit. It's not your "works" that save you. And even if you did have any works, without agape love for your neighbor ("...especially those of the household of God.")

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity (love) , I am nothing."

"To say that nothing saves but Christ implies universalism is correct doctrine."

Whaaa?? Who but Christ saves??!

That is so well said, Nancy! The Scriptures, including Jesus' words, often reflect abbreviated statements, requiring the listener or reader to understand the full context. In "not forgiving" Jesus would be speaking of those who refuse to submit to God's judgment, and instead, wish to take God's place. In doing so they are actively choosing to live their own life the way they see fit, and not submit to God's requirements for their lives.

It certainly is not a matter of basing our Salvation on works, or on perfection in our ability to "forgive." Some sins committed against us create a lifelong bitterness in us, and is not what Jesus meant by "not forgiving." My opinion only....

Agreed Randy.

 

[Nancy]

This was true under the Law. Now we are admonished to forgive others because we have been forgiven.

Ephesians 4:32 KJV
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Much love! ever

Perfect verse! Our hearts should melt at the thought of being like the "wicked steward" after what He did for us it "should" come easy, lol. Maybe for some it does, or is naturally in them, like a sister of mine
"Now we are admonished to forgive others because we have been forgiven." Ephesians 4:32

Even though we Christians do not look back, but forward, it would do us good, IMHO to remember some of the things The Lord God forgave us of; even if we cannot yet forgive ourselves; it does not negate the forgiveness, amen!
"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." Matthew 5:7


This sentence immediately comes into my mind when others have hurt me. It does for me.
It makes me recall all the horrible things that consumed my life, and how He forgave me for all of them, and also forgot them completely! That is not to say that there are no struggles in that area anymore, there are. And then this is brought to mind too. "But He who began a good work in you..." He is working in all of His children.
Jesus is Lord!