The First Condition of salvation

[robert derrick]

Grace is unconditionally open to all, and salvation by grace is conditioned on repentance from dead works:

The first condition of God for salvation by grace has always been that of repentance:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. (Acts 3)

No repent ye, no be converted, no being saved. Without repentance, there is no salvation. And so, salvation is conditioned on repentance.

To say salvation is unconditional is to say there is no condition that comes with salvation, which may be idolized by man, but is not of God. No one thinks for any second that salvation comes without the condition of repentance. People only try to invent such, when they find themselves not keeping that first condition of salvation: "Well, gosh, I'm not repenting of what I know to repent of, but at least I'm still saved!"

God's grace is unconditionally open to all: no respect of persons and no time limit but open eternally by the blood of the Lamb, that is incorruptible and everlasting as is His gospel of the cross (Rev 14), and God's salvation by grace comes with the first condition of repentance from dead works, which is the first principle of the doctrine of Christ, which is written even before having faith toward God. (Heb 6:1)

Grace is unconditionally open to all, salvation by God is conditional to all: with condition of repentance, which is first of the things that accompany salvation, without which there is no salvation by God:

Repentance and salvation are one, even as the Father and the Son are one: salvation accompanies repentance, even as repentance accompanies salvation. Without the shedding of blood of the Lamb, there is no remission of sins by grace, and without repentance of sins, there is no washing in the blood: no salvation of God the Father by His Son. God will save no man without repentance and belief in His Son.

Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The thing about the salvation of God, is that repentance and salvation always accompany one another, even as the Father and the Son.

Unless,

1. There is salvation without repentance.

2. Repentance is not necessary for salvation by grace.

3. Conversion does not come by necessary repentance.

4. Being converted is not salvation, but only after salvation.

5. We can be washed in the blood, without repenting of the sins that crucified the Lamb of God.

Faith without works is dead, and faith without repentance was never alive in the first place, since repentance is the first condition of salvation.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Grace is unconditionally open to all, and salvation by grace is conditioned on repentance from dead works:

The first condition of God for salvation by grace has always been that of repentance:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. (Acts 3)

No repent ye, no be converted, no being saved. Without repentance, there is no salvation. And so, salvation is conditioned on repentance.

To say salvation is unconditional is to say there is no condition that comes with salvation, which may be idolized by man, but is not of God. No one thinks for any second that salvation comes without the condition of repentance. People only try to invent such, when they find themselves not keeping that first condition of salvation: "Well, gosh, I'm not repenting of what I know to repent of, but at least I'm still saved!"

God's grace is unconditionally open to all: no respect of persons and no time limit but open eternally by the blood of the Lamb, that is incorruptible and everlasting as is His gospel of the cross (Rev 14), and God's salvation by grace comes with the first condition of repentance from dead works, which is the first principle of the doctrine of Christ, which is written even before having faith toward God. (Heb 6:1)

Grace is unconditionally open to all, salvation by God is conditional to all: with condition of repentance, which is first of the things that accompany salvation, without which there is no salvation by God:

Repentance and salvation are one, even as the Father and the Son are one: salvation accompanies repentance, even as repentance accompanies salvation. Without the shedding of blood of the Lamb, there is no remission of sins by grace, and without repentance of sins, there is no washing in the blood: no salvation of God the Father by His Son. God will save no man without repentance and belief in His Son.

Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The thing about the salvation of God, is that repentance and salvation always accompany one another, even as the Father and the Son.

Unless,

1. There is salvation without repentance.

2. Repentance is not necessary for salvation by grace.

3. Conversion does not come by necessary repentance.

4. Being converted is not salvation, but only after salvation.

5. We can be washed in the blood, without repenting of the sins that crucified the Lamb of God.

Faith without works is dead, and faith without repentance was never alive in the first place, since repentance is the first condition of salvation.

The very first step of salvation is found at Jn 17:3 Bob. Before one would even think about repentance, he would have to come to know Jehovah and Jesus and their requirements. All Christians take in knowledge, and then correct things as they learn about them. I have always loved watching the evolution of new ones who come into the faith. What a great privilege and joy when we personally have a hand in making a disciple of Christ.

 

[robert derrick]

The very first step of salvation is found at Jn 17:3 Bob. Before one would even think about repentance, he would have to come to know Jehovah and Jesus and their requirements. All Christians take in knowledge, and then correct things as they learn about them. I have always loved watching the evolution of new ones who come into the faith. What a great privilege and joy when we personally have a hand in making a disciple of Christ.

I'm talking about the first condition of salvation, which makes salvation by grace conditional.

The first step toward repentance and conversion is all by grace of God: the seed sown in the heart by grace, whensoever we first hear the name of Jesus ministered to us.

But the repentance for salvation and conversion is all by us. God does not repent for us, nor do our repenting.

Jesus died on the cross for us, but He does not crucify our old man. We must do that.

Repentance is the first condition upon which the seed takes root in the honest and good heart: the one who honestly agrees with God from the heart, that repentance of sins is necessary for Jesus to save and keep us in His will and body.

With repentance comes faith toward God to go on to good works of faith and so fulfill the royal law to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Salvation and justification are all by grace of God, and by grace God gives the increase in our souls, but neither grace nor God does the work we must do ourselves to water and till our soul with good works of faith.

God prepares our soul to hear Him by drawing us to Him, but we must do our part of the working out our own salvation: repentance from dead works, faith toward God, purifying ourselves ever as He is pure, keeping ourselves in His love, that the wicked one touch us not.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I'm talking about the first condition of salvation, which makes salvation by grace conditional.

The first step toward repentance and conversion is all by grace of God: the seed sown in the heart by grace, whensoever we first hear the name of Jesus ministered to us.

But the repentance for salvation and conversion is all by us. God does not repent for us, nor do our repenting.

Jesus died on the cross for us, but He does not crucify our old man. We must do that.

Repentance is the first condition upon which the seed takes root in the honest and good heart: the one who honestly agrees with God from the heart, that repentance of sins is necessary for Jesus to save and keep us in His will and body.

With repentance comes faith toward God to go on to good works of faith and so fulfill the royal law to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Salvation and justification are all by grace of God, and by grace God gives the increase in our souls, but neither grace nor God does the work we must do ourselves to water and till our soul with good works of faith.

God prepares our soul to hear Him by drawing us to Him, but we must do our part of the working out our own salvation: repentance from dead works, faith toward God, purifying ourselves ever as He is pure, keeping ourselves in His love, that the wicked one touch us not.

Every single individual that will receive salvation is through the grace of God sir, no one is deserving, as all of us have sinned. Even a baby who dies in the womb is guilty through inherited sin from the parents. Most people should be aware of that. It is critical that one should realize that there are requirements to salvation. God offers life or death, those who choose life is agreeing to be obedient to God's laws and principles. Yes that is way down the road from the initial step, but I mention this as many faiths emphasize God's grace as being their salvation, even though He clearly reveals in His word the Bible, that few will actually be saved.

You made a very good point about repentance for sure, sincere sorrow for wrongdoing and desire not to repeat it secures our forgiveness, keep in mind as well, that forgiving those who sin against us, goes a very long way with Jehovah to be forgiving to us. Humility is a big key as well.

 

[DPMartin]

Grace is unconditionally open to all, and salvation by grace is conditioned on repentance from dead works:

The first condition of God for salvation by grace has always been that of repentance:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. (Acts 3)

No repent ye, no be converted, no being saved. Without repentance, there is no salvation. And so, salvation is conditioned on repentance.

To say salvation is unconditional is to say there is no condition that comes with salvation, which may be idolized by man, but is not of God. No one thinks for any second that salvation comes without the condition of repentance. People only try to invent such, when they find themselves not keeping that first condition of salvation: "Well, gosh, I'm not repenting of what I know to repent of, but at least I'm still saved!"

God's grace is unconditionally open to all: no respect of persons and no time limit but open eternally by the blood of the Lamb, that is incorruptible and everlasting as is His gospel of the cross (Rev 14), and God's salvation by grace comes with the first condition of repentance from dead works, which is the first principle of the doctrine of Christ, which is written even before having faith toward God. (Heb 6:1)

Grace is unconditionally open to all, salvation by God is conditional to all: with condition of repentance, which is first of the things that accompany salvation, without which there is no salvation by God:

Repentance and salvation are one, even as the Father and the Son are one: salvation accompanies repentance, even as repentance accompanies salvation. Without the shedding of blood of the Lamb, there is no remission of sins by grace, and without repentance of sins, there is no washing in the blood: no salvation of God the Father by His Son. God will save no man without repentance and belief in His Son.

Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The thing about the salvation of God, is that repentance and salvation always accompany one another, even as the Father and the Son.

Unless,

1. There is salvation without repentance.

2. Repentance is not necessary for salvation by grace.

3. Conversion does not come by necessary repentance.

4. Being converted is not salvation, but only after salvation.

5. We can be washed in the blood, without repenting of the sins that crucified the Lamb of God.

Faith without works is dead, and faith without repentance was never alive in the first place, since repentance is the first condition of salvation.

nope your saing here that God's grace is a entitlment, whereas God says otherwise:

Exo_33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

one has to find God's Grace (God's favor)
Gen_6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

some more here:

Exo_33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
Exo_33:13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
Exo_33:16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
Exo_33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
Exo_34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.

the grace or favor of God is not an automatic. the children of Noah can find God's Grace in God's sight. its not an entitlement. read the part of King Saul and Samuel where the Lord via Samuel confronted Saul on not following what Moses wrote in the case of attacking a certain town. Saul laid out some lame excuse for superseding God's instructions in the Torah and then offered and or asked to repent to make it better and Samuel and the Lord ignored Saul's asking to repent. after which David was on the very short list for a replacement.

Grace is favor of which the Lord God is not obligated to give.

 

[post]

Jesus died on the cross for us, but He does not crucify our old man. We must do that.

Romans 6:4-6
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be [in the likeness] of [His] resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him,] that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.


'our old man was crucified with Him'

The verb there is passive.
Indicating it was something done to us, rather than something we did.

 

[robert derrick]

Romans 6:4-6
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be [in the likeness] of [His] resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Him,] that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.


'our old man was crucified with Him'

The verb there is passive.
Indicating it was something done to us, rather than something we did.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Rom 8)

The old nature and heart are changed by God, the old inner man, we then crucify and mortify the outer man and deeds of body.

No one walks after the Spirit nor is led of the Spirit without our participation, as though unwillingly, but rather of agreed will and purpose and doing: Confession is to agree with God from the heart, that produces repentance with the body.

IF we don't do out part in the outer deeds of the body, we will have no part in his outer body, and no resurrection with His spiritual body.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die.

If we continue in sin to live after the flesh, we shall die like any other, for the wages of sin is death, without respect of persons.

Far from having special exemption from the law of sin and death, believers called to be saints in Christ are held more accountable to God:

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God... (1 Peter 4)

Even in God's work inwardly, we are not 'passive': the seed is planted by grace upon hearing, but the watering thereof to take root is up to us to believe God unto salvation and good works, which is not the passive 'faith' that is dead, being alone.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. (Col 3)

If we continue in these things by not doing our part in crucifying outward deeds of the body, then we will be judged worse than they, because we behaved ourselves no better than they, yet had the promise of the Spirit and of everlasting life.

For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience

Let's put it bluntly: According to Scripture, not ideas of men, God doesn't care whether we are 'saved' or not, but if we do as the children of disobedience, God's wrath will come on us as they.

'Passive Salvation', like workless faith, is worthless to God, and all our posturings and manipulations of Scripture to convince ourselves otherwise is as filthy rags to God.

The hypocrisy of the 'believer' has always been the same (Rom 2): I do as the heathen, but am not judged as the heathen, because I have 'faith'.

That is not the faith of Jesus, but is the delusion of 'believing to be saved', despite our continued works of darkness, which are of the devil (1 John 3:8), doing despite to the Spirit of grace:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb 10:29)

Unless,

We shall not be judged as they, while we do as they, because we 'believe' we are saved, unlike they.

Or, if we live after the flesh, we shall not die as they.

 

[Ziggy]

Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

After one has come to the knowledge of Christ, by the grace of God go I.
Then comes faith..
believing in and acting upon that knowledge which is given to the believer.

Conversion is a process.

Our old man has died, but we have a tendency to not want to let go to that old life.. like Lot's wife.
(funny how things all flow together like that.. )
anywhoo

I agree with the Opening Post.
Repentence (returning back to God and away from the world) is a key component to salvation.
And it is by grace that God gives us faith to believe that it is possible to cast off the old man and walk in the new.
And it can take many many years to connect the dots.
Some it is easy, they haven't walked according to the world completely their whole lives.
Some are fortunate to be brought up with believeing parents or teachers or peers.
Some have a harder time because they never were taught the Love of God.

There are still conditions even if we rather not die to self, no one ever wants to lose their identity.
Funny I was thinking about this very thought yesterday.
It is no longer I but Christ liveth in me...
Once you are fully converted.. there is no I anymore..
But you have to shed off that skin one layer at a time.
And some layers can be more painful and stubborn than others.

Like repenting and not living the way you used to but walking in a new life in a new way, and Jesus is who we follow.
We can make all the excuses we like, or find any verse that fits our trying to escape dying to oneself.
But in the end...
it is appointed unto man once to die..
and every knee shall bow.
Whether by Grace or by condemnation.

thinking..
hugs

 

[post]

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Rom 8)

The old nature and heart are changed by God, the old inner man, we then crucify and mortify the outer man and deeds of body.

given Romans 6:6 exists, Romans 8:13 'mortify the deeds of the body' is not equal to 'crucify the old man'
these are different things.

it's the same Paul speaking by the same Holy Spirit and He, the Author, says 'mortify the deeds of the body' because the old man 'has been crucified'
God did not say 'crucify yourself' but God said 'mortify the deeds of the flesh' -- and God has an excellent command of language.

Jesus tells us to pick up our cross.
He doesn't say nail yourself to it.
believe me buddy you're gonna have trouble with that last nail.

 

[post]

Our old man has died, but we have a tendency to not want to let go to that old life.. like Lot's wife.

Lot's wife didn't miss her bridge club or wish she'd grabbed some bauble off the shelf before she left.
i'm sorry but 99.99 to 100% of the teachings you've ever heard on this are wrong.
she had other children.

Abraham didn't arrive at an hypothetical '10 righteous people' in Sodom arbitrarily. he too was considering his family with concern.
Lot & Mrs. Lot had 2 married daughters & 2 sons-in-law, the 2 daughters that were with them in their home, and 2 other unmarried sons. that makes 10 relatives of Abraham.
she lingered because she loved her children. Lot didn't speak to his two sons, even when the angels reminded him of them ((Genesis 19:12)). nor his married daughters - but only to their husbands ((Genesis 19:14)).

Lot's wife remembered them. the ones who weren't warned.

salt is always a 'good' symbol in the scripture. Lot's wife is no exception. she was taken by the hand of an angel and the LORD did not allow her to be destroyed in Sodom. He made her a pillar, ((also always a 'good' symbol)) and Christ identifies her as a sign to Israel in the last days.
they will remember her.

when the day approaches, forget about your 'stuff'
remember the people. the souls. just like Abraham did when he rescued Lot after Sodom was sacked in Genesis 14. he didn't take any of the 'loot' -- he refused it. he only cared about the people.

 

[Curtis]

Grace is unconditionally open to all, and salvation by grace is conditioned on repentance from dead works:

The first condition of God for salvation by grace has always been that of repentance:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you. (Acts 3)

No repent ye, no be converted, no being saved. Without repentance, there is no salvation. And so, salvation is conditioned on repentance.

To say salvation is unconditional is to say there is no condition that comes with salvation, which may be idolized by man, but is not of God. No one thinks for any second that salvation comes without the condition of repentance. People only try to invent such, when they find themselves not keeping that first condition of salvation: "Well, gosh, I'm not repenting of what I know to repent of, but at least I'm still saved!"

God's grace is unconditionally open to all: no respect of persons and no time limit but open eternally by the blood of the Lamb, that is incorruptible and everlasting as is His gospel of the cross (Rev 14), and God's salvation by grace comes with the first condition of repentance from dead works, which is the first principle of the doctrine of Christ, which is written even before having faith toward God. (Heb 6:1)

Grace is unconditionally open to all, salvation by God is conditional to all: with condition of repentance, which is first of the things that accompany salvation, without which there is no salvation by God:

Repentance and salvation are one, even as the Father and the Son are one: salvation accompanies repentance, even as repentance accompanies salvation. Without the shedding of blood of the Lamb, there is no remission of sins by grace, and without repentance of sins, there is no washing in the blood: no salvation of God the Father by His Son. God will save no man without repentance and belief in His Son.

Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The thing about the salvation of God, is that repentance and salvation always accompany one another, even as the Father and the Son.

Unless,

1. There is salvation without repentance.

2. Repentance is not necessary for salvation by grace.

3. Conversion does not come by necessary repentance.

4. Being converted is not salvation, but only after salvation.

5. We can be washed in the blood, without repenting of the sins that crucified the Lamb of God.

Faith without works is dead, and faith without repentance was never alive in the first place, since repentance is the first condition of salvation.

Hyper-grace teachers claim repentance is unneeded after being saved, but Jesus never got that memo - He warned four out of seven churches of their need to repent.

Some of them claim no repentance is even needed to be saved, by claiming that repentance is included in faith, which is not so.

Paul made clear that repentance AND faith are needed:

Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, AND faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Curtis]

Lot's wife didn't miss her bridge club or wish she'd grabbed some bauble off the shelf before she left.
she had other children.

Abraham didn't arrive at an hypothetical '10 righteous people' in Sodom arbitrarily. he too was considering his family with concern.
Lot & Mrs. Lot had 2 married daughters & 2 sons-in-law, the 2 daughters that were with them in their home, and 2 other unmarried sons. that makes 10 relatives of Abraham.
she lingered because she loved her children. Lot didn't speak to his two sons, even when the angels reminded him of them ((Genesis 19:12)). nor his married daughters - but only to their husbands ((Genesis 19:14)).

Lot's wife remembered them. the ones who weren't warned.

salt is always a 'good' symbol in the scripture. Lot's wife is no exception. she was taken by the hand of an angel and the LORD did not allow her to be destroyed in Sodom. He made her a pillar, ((also always a 'good' symbol)) and Christ identifies her as a sign to Israel in the last days. they will remember her.

And unfortunately, since God didn’t spare Sodom because there weren’t even ten righteous there, none of those family members were righteous.

Noah had some relatives left behind, too.

Baruch HaShem HaMashiach Yehoshua

 

[post]

And unfortunately, since God didn’t spare Sodom because there weren’t even ten righteous there, none of those family members were righteous.

that does not follow.

God promised that if 10 righteous were in the city, He would spare it.
God removed 4 of Abraham's family.
God made one of those 4 a sign.

2 of the 6 that remained scoffed at Lot.

that means 4 may have been righteous.

 

[Ziggy]

i'm sorry but 99.99 to 100% of the teachings you've ever heard on this are wrong.

I like your post,
but I never heard any teachings pretty much on anything..
I'm a self-learner.. And so I only grapple with my understanding of scripture as the Lord brings them clearer into view.
Thank you for sharing your info, I didn't realize there was 10 and that's why Abraham stopped there and didn't proceed to 1.
I am a work in progress learning bit by bit everyday.
:)
HUGS

 

[marks]

Hyper-grace teachers claim repentance is unneeded after being saved, but Jesus never got that memo - He warned four out of seven churches of their need to repent.

The thing to understand is when I say, repentance, I'm using it in the NT manner, which is not the same as the OT repentance, to change your direction. To stop this, and start that. The NT "metanoia" is the "after mind", or, the result of an exchanged mind. You have this mind, you exchange it for another mind.

It can be used and is in a metaphorical sense, having a new mind towards something. The Bible teaches a very literal sense, where once we lived according to our "mind of the flesh", but this has been replaced with the "mind of Christ". Being reborn, we are new people, a new kind of person, with a new kind of mind.

So instead of repentance being about tracking and repudiating each sin in turn, repenting daily, this idea of repentance is that we've repudiated our flesh itself. We reject the entire idea of being right with God in any way having to do with us, how good we are, or something like that. We realize our need for Jesus, and in receiving Him, believing in His Name, God begets us again. We were flesh born from flesh, now we are spirit born from spirit, with that spiritual mind.

The one thing to do if we are committing sin now is to stop. Sins we have difficulty stopping, we trust Jesus to deal with these. This is His promise to do, and something He claims for Himself. We are to do what we can, when we cannot, we trust Him for it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Let's put it bluntly: According to Scripture, not ideas of men, God doesn't care whether we are 'saved' or not, but if we do as the children of disobedience, God's wrath will come on us as they.

Saved meaning what?

I equate being saved with being reborn. Having been forgiven of sins and now born of God. You are saying this doesn't matter to God?

Much love!

 

[Curtis]

that does not follow.

God promised that if 10 righteous were in the city, He would spare it.
God removed 4 of Abraham's family.
God made one of those 4 a sign.

2 of the 6 that remained scoffed at Lot.

that means 4 may have been righteous.

Which means, God deliberately killed some righteous people in Sodom?

That would be the logical conclusion to your reply.

Is that your intended meaning, or was there a point I missed?

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Ziggy]

what is the definition of saved?
It means so many things to so many people on so many levels...

This takes patience...

It's the "transition" or the aha moment, when one crosses over to a new understanding.

Here is where teaching is an art I wished I'd learned..
How to get from here to there is the door that God opens .. it is the Light seeing for the first time...
It is the renting of the veil...
Some people have a talent of explaining things in easy terms..

The first time a friend taught me that the word Bread meant the Word of the Lord.. and I understood how to make the connection between
earthy thought and spiritual thought...
That was an AHA moment...

I get them all the time still, but that first one.. that transition.. is the key that opens a lot more doors.

So Cool
Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

There is none righteous no not one.
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy

 

[Ziggy]

The first condition of salvation...

that's heavy..

what was the first conditioin the woman who was going to be stoned but was told to go and sin no more, had to do?
The blind man, the lame, the deaf and blind...
what was the first condition they had to do in order to saved?