The First Resurrection

[Scott Downey]

The three and a half years, for a time and times and half a time.

“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

365 days/yr: 3.53 years

Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 7 - New King James Version

Vision of the Four Beasts - In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of his head while on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream, telling the main facts. Daniel spoke, saying, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring...

www.biblegateway.com

Vision of the Ancient of Days​

9 “I watched till thrones were [d]put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The [e]court was seated,
And the books were opened.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel’s Visions Interpreted​

15 “I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit [g]within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four [h]kings which arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’

19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke [i]pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 “Thus he said:

‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.

His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
28 “This is the end of the [k]account. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed; but I kept the matter in my heart.”

 

[Scott Downey]

The same time, and times and half a time, 3.5 years shielded from the presence of the serpent.

Revelation 12:14
But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

 

[Davy]

I go by the bible, not your errors and omissions.
The verses I bring to the table are nowhere in your limited partial eschatology.

All rapture verses are pretrib setting

All of them.

None of you can unpack Noah or lot.
None of you can unpack the half taken in mat 24 or 25.
None of you understand the regathering of the Jews in romans 9-11.
None of you understand the Jewish gathering of rev 14;14.

None of you understand what the rapture is.
Instead of understanding it, you guys turn it into a, "tribulation endurance" centering.
In 100% defiance of the AC killing all believers!!!! DURING THE TRIB.
You guys have no answer..NONE...To the innumerable number in Rev.
You defy it, with much "authority "
Look at all your colleagues and yourself, your doctrine is void of looking for Jesus.
In fact, you guys are 100% looking for the antichrist.
Jesus said: "pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the earth and stand before the son of man."
(There is not a single postribber that can pray that honestly.)

Your faith is somewhere else.

The Bible ends with, "the spirit and the bride calling out to Jesus. And they say come lord Jesus maranatha.
The parting final words. Such a weight of purpose and heart of heaven.

No postribber has ever gone there. It would be totally fake.
You don't even know of the last parting words of the bible.
No postribber has ever brought it up.
Why?
Like I said....your heart and faith are not in the groom. The groom dynamic is abstract to you.
That is why IT IS MISSING in your doctrine.

*No Jesus.
*No heaven
*No Jews gathered.
*No bride
*No groom
....all of those are missing from your doctrine.
Your deal is an empty wagon of "trib endurance"
All your focus is there...on man....and the tribulation.
A narcissistic man centered fabrication of massive omission. ( trib trib trib trib)
So empty and void of God.

The bible is 100% pretrib in word, understanding, and spirit.
....AND VIVIDLY ILLUSTRATED IN THE VIRGIN PARABLE AND NOAH ANALOGY.
All of you, reframe, and change , the virgin parable.
That alone is shameful

You are being deceived brother, the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by John Nelson Darby.

Darby had gotten the idea from others like the Edward Irving church which Darby denounced later and even said they had some strange spiritual manifestations going on there. Darby at first taught a 'secret' idea with the pre-trib rapture, which still is a major component of the doctrine today with the Left-Behind books and ideas, as people just disappear and those left behind don't know where they went.

And about the Noah analogy...

Pre-trib's Noah analogy is wrong, because the one's Jesus said are 'taken' were those taken by the flood outside the ark.

And per the actual Biblical analogy using the flood of Noah's day, Revelation 12:15-16 uses the Noah flood idea to point to what comes out of the serpent's mouth (i.e., Satan).

Rev 12:15-16
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
KJV

That Biblical analogy for the end of this world is that the flood represents the lies that cause deception that comes out of Satan's mouth at the end during the coming tribulation. Those lies come out of the locust's mouths also per Revelation 9, so that Chapter links with the above Rev.12 idea. And in Rev.9, we are told the 'stinging' by the locusts will be upon those who do not... have the seal of God in their foreheads, and will last for "five months."

How does that "five months" link to the flood of Noah's day? Per Genesis 7, the waters of the flood prevailed upon the earth for one hundred and fifty days. Per the old Hebrew calendar for a month, they each equaled 30 days for a month. Thus 150 days = "five months". The analogy is that the symbolic flood at the end of this world out of Satan's and the locust's mouths will last for a period of "five months", thus the time Lord Jesus said He shortened the tribulation to for the sake of His elect.

Five months (or 150 days) is how long Noah's ark was upon the height of the flood waters before those waters began receding. That's the actual Bible analogy about the Noah flood for the end of this world. It means those in Christ who remain faithful and wait for Jesus' coming will be spiritually protected by Lord Jesus (symbolic of the Ark at the end of this world), and go through that symbolic flood of Lies out of the dragon's mouth.

The other option is to be deceived, and believe the first Messiah that shows up is our Lord Jesus come to fly you away. The Pre-trib Rapture school even wrongly teaches Jesus' warning about being TAKEN per the end of Luke 17. When Christ's disciples asked Jesus, "Where, Lord?" about the ones taken and the other left, Jesus showed the first one TAKEN would be wheresoever the "carcase" is where the fowls are gathered together (Matthew 24:28 compared with Luke 17:37). Yet Pre-trib wrongly teaches being TAKEN means being raptured to Heaven by Lord Jesus prior to the tribulation.

Here is a way to definitely know when the coming false-Jesus comes to fly you away. Per Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, on the "last trump", we are to be changed to our "spiritual body" at the "twinkling of an eye", which is the day the True Lord Jesus Christ comes to gather His faithful Church. If you are NOT changed to that spiritual body when it is claimed Jesus has come, then you know that one is a FAKE.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I go by the bible, not your errors and omissions.
The verses I bring to the table are nowhere in your limited partial eschatology.

All rapture verses are pretrib setting

All of them.

None of you can unpack Noah or lot.
None of you can unpack the half taken in mat 24 or 25.
None of you understand the regathering of the Jews in romans 9-11.
None of you understand the Jewish gathering of rev 14;14.

None of you understand what the rapture is.
Instead of understanding it, you guys turn it into a, "tribulation endurance" centering.
In 100% defiance of the AC killing all believers!!!! DURING THE TRIB.
You guys have no answer..NONE...To the innumerable number in Rev.
You defy it, with much "authority "
Look at all your colleagues and yourself, your doctrine is void of looking for Jesus.
In fact, you guys are 100% looking for the antichrist.
Jesus said: "pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the earth and stand before the son of man."
(There is not a single postribber that can pray that honestly.)

Your faith is somewhere else.

The Bible ends with, "the spirit and the bride calling out to Jesus. And they say come lord Jesus maranatha.
The parting final words. Such a weight of purpose and heart of heaven.

No postribber has ever gone there. It would be totally fake.
You don't even know of the last parting words of the bible.
No postribber has ever brought it up.
Why?
Like I said....your heart and faith are not in the groom. The groom dynamic is abstract to you.
That is why IT IS MISSING in your doctrine.

*No Jesus.
*No heaven
*No Jews gathered.
*No bride
*No groom
....all of those are missing from your doctrine.
Your deal is an empty wagon of "trib endurance"
All your focus is there...on man....and the tribulation.
A narcissistic man centered fabrication of massive omission. ( trib trib trib trib)
So empty and void of God.

The bible is 100% pretrib in word, understanding, and spirit.
....AND VIVIDLY ILLUSTRATED IN THE VIRGIN PARABLE AND NOAH ANALOGY.
All of you, reframe, and change , the virgin parable.
That alone is shameful

What a bunch of gibberish. Are you unable to speak plainly and exegete scripture to show why you are saying all of this nonsense? I don't believe you are. You just make a bunch of claims and think you don't have to do anything to back them up. You are not someone who anyone can take seriously. Stop all this rambling and show exactly how you are coming to these conclusions for once. The Jewish gathering of Revelation 14:14? Where do you get that nonsense from? You explain nothing. Please step away and let the adults speak.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are being deceived brother, the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by John Nelson Darby.

Darby had gotten the idea from others like the Edward Irving church which Darby denounced later and even said they had some strange spiritual manifestations going on there. Darby at first taught a 'secret' idea with the pre-trib rapture, which still is a major component of the doctrine today with the Left-Behind books and ideas, as people just disappear and those left behind don't know where they went.

And about the Noah analogy...

Pre-trib's Noah analogy is wrong, because the one's Jesus said are 'taken' were those taken by the flood outside the ark.

And per the actual Biblical analogy using the flood of Noah's day, Revelation 12:15-16 uses the Noah flood idea to point to what comes out of the serpent's mouth (i.e., Satan).

Rev 12:15-16
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
KJV

That Biblical analogy for the end of this world is that the flood represents the lies that cause deception that comes out of Satan's mouth at the end during the coming tribulation. Those lies come out of the locust's mouths also per Revelation 9, so that Chapter links with the above Rev.12 idea. And in Rev.9, we are told the 'stinging' by the locusts will be upon those who do not... have the seal of God in their foreheads, and will last for "five months."

How does that "five months" link to the flood of Noah's day? Per Genesis 7, the waters of the flood prevailed upon the earth for one hundred and fifty days. Per the old Hebrew calendar for a month, they each equaled 30 days for a month. Thus 150 days = "five months". The analogy is that the symbolic flood at the end of this world out of Satan's and the locust's mouths will last for a period of "five months", thus the time Lord Jesus said He shortened the tribulation to for the sake of His elect.

Five months (or 150 days) is how long Noah's ark was upon the height of the flood waters before those waters began receding. That's the actual Bible analogy about the Noah flood for the end of this world. It means those in Christ who remain faithful and wait for Jesus' coming will be spiritually protected by Lord Jesus (symbolic of the Ark at the end of this world), and go through that symbolic flood of Lies out of the dragon's mouth.

The other option is to be deceived, and believe the first Messiah that shows up is our Lord Jesus come to fly you away. The Pre-trib Rapture school even wrongly teaches Jesus' warning about being TAKEN per the end of Luke 17. When Christ's disciples asked Jesus, "Where, Lord?" about the ones taken and the other left, Jesus showed the first one TAKEN would be wheresoever the "carcase" is where the fowls are gathered together (Matthew 24:28 compared with Luke 17:37). Yet Pre-trib wrongly teaches being TAKEN means being raptured to Heaven by Lord Jesus prior to the tribulation.

Here is a way to definitely know when the coming false-Jesus comes to fly you away. Per Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, on the "last trump", we are to be changed to our "spiritual body" at the "twinkling of an eye", which is the day the True Lord Jesus Christ comes to gather His faithful Church. If you are NOT changed to that spiritual body when it is claimed Jesus has come, then you know that one is a FAKE.

If you want me to ignore the pretrib rapture verses and join you in your doctrine, you need to get real.

You did nothing of the kind.
Even when I told you the bible takes authority in my doctrine.

You can bring up 50 dead men to justify going extra biblical.
Find 25 that believe like you and 25nthat believe like me.
You prove zero.
Get a bible and prove the pretrib rapture verses are Actually Jesus in confusion.
That is your assignment.
First get a bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are being deceived brother, the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by John Nelson Darby.

Darby had gotten the idea from others like the Edward Irving church which Darby denounced later and even said they had some strange spiritual manifestations going on there. Darby at first taught a 'secret' idea with the pre-trib rapture, which still is a major component of the doctrine today with the Left-Behind books and ideas, as people just disappear and those left behind don't know where they went.

And about the Noah analogy...

Pre-trib's Noah analogy is wrong, because the one's Jesus said are 'taken' were those taken by the flood outside the ark.

And per the actual Biblical analogy using the flood of Noah's day, Revelation 12:15-16 uses the Noah flood idea to point to what comes out of the serpent's mouth (i.e., Satan).

Rev 12:15-16
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
KJV

That Biblical analogy for the end of this world is that the flood represents the lies that cause deception that comes out of Satan's mouth at the end during the coming tribulation. Those lies come out of the locust's mouths also per Revelation 9, so that Chapter links with the above Rev.12 idea. And in Rev.9, we are told the 'stinging' by the locusts will be upon those who do not... have the seal of God in their foreheads, and will last for "five months."

How does that "five months" link to the flood of Noah's day? Per Genesis 7, the waters of the flood prevailed upon the earth for one hundred and fifty days. Per the old Hebrew calendar for a month, they each equaled 30 days for a month. Thus 150 days = "five months". The analogy is that the symbolic flood at the end of this world out of Satan's and the locust's mouths will last for a period of "five months", thus the time Lord Jesus said He shortened the tribulation to for the sake of His elect.

Five months (or 150 days) is how long Noah's ark was upon the height of the flood waters before those waters began receding. That's the actual Bible analogy about the Noah flood for the end of this world. It means those in Christ who remain faithful and wait for Jesus' coming will be spiritually protected by Lord Jesus (symbolic of the Ark at the end of this world), and go through that symbolic flood of Lies out of the dragon's mouth.

The other option is to be deceived, and believe the first Messiah that shows up is our Lord Jesus come to fly you away. The Pre-trib Rapture school even wrongly teaches Jesus' warning about being TAKEN per the end of Luke 17. When Christ's disciples asked Jesus, "Where, Lord?" about the ones taken and the other left, Jesus showed the first one TAKEN would be wheresoever the "carcase" is where the fowls are gathered together (Matthew 24:28 compared with Luke 17:37). Yet Pre-trib wrongly teaches being TAKEN means being raptured to Heaven by Lord Jesus prior to the tribulation.

Here is a way to definitely know when the coming false-Jesus comes to fly you away. Per Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, on the "last trump", we are to be changed to our "spiritual body" at the "twinkling of an eye", which is the day the True Lord Jesus Christ comes to gather His faithful Church. If you are NOT changed to that spiritual body when it is claimed Jesus has come, then you know that one is a FAKE.

Lol
Jesus said " one taken, one left behind" so what you DID WAS CHANGE WHAT HE SAID to "God killed them all."
1) nowhere in the flood was half of any dynamic mentioned.
2) no where in the future is the world's population completely destroyed.

...and yet you incorporate dynamics the analogy can not possibly point to.

Morbdo you get that "...where the body is eagles gather"

You do not get to accuse others of deception while omitting and changing verses.

You do not at all know what you are talking about.

You come away from the Noah analogy in deception with changed and omitted components

 

[Scott Downey]

Lol
Jesus said " one taken, one left behind" so what you DID WAS CHANGE WHAT HE SAID to "God killed them all."
1) nowhere in the flood was half of any dynamic mentioned.
2) no where in the future is the world's population completely destroyed.

...and yet you incorporate dynamics the analogy can not possibly point to.

Morbdo you get that "...where the body is eagles gather"

You do not get to accuse others of deception while omitting and changing verses.

You do not at all know what you are talking about.

You come away from the Noah analogy in deception with changed and omitted components

God did kill them all except the ones in the Ark, His return is like the time of Noah.
Genesis 6:17
And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.

1. Genesis 7:15
   And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life.
2. Genesis 7:22
   All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.

If when Christ returns you are not found in Him you will die, everyone will die who is not saved-redeemed by Christ at His returning, because in Christ is the breath of LIFE, Christ is the way, the truth, the life.

1. Acts 17:28
   for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For weare also His offspring.’
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 2 Corinthians 13:4
   For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Himby the power of God toward you.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. 1 Peter 2:24
   who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. 1 John 4:9
   In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

 

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 17 - 21st Century King James Version

Then said He unto His disciples, "It is impossible but that offenses will come, but woe unto him through whom they come! It were better for him that a millstone were hung about his neck and he cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to fall. "Take heed to...

www.biblegateway.com

20 And when the Pharisees had demanded of Him when the Kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, “The Kingdom of God cometh not with outward show.

21 Neither shall they say, ‘Lo, it is here!’ or ‘Lo, it is there!’ For behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.”

22 And He said unto the disciples, “The days will come when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, ‘See, here!’ or ‘See, there!’ Go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning that lighteneth one part under heaven shineth unto the other part under heaven, so shall also the Son of Man be in His day.

25 But first must He suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man:

27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;

29 but the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “Even thus shall it be in the Day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 In that Day, he that shall be upon the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot’s wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it, and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said unto Him, “Where, Lord?” And He said unto them, “Wheresoever the body (carcass of the dead) is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

 

[Davy]

If you want me to ignore the pretrib rapture verses and join you in your doctrine, you need to get real.

That Lord Jesus Christ said He comes AFTER... the tribulation is not MY doctrine. It is HIS.

So WHY... do YOU reject what Lord Jesus Christ said? ...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV


Also, Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 showed the SAME TIMING ABOVE when Paul showed Jesus comes He will bring the 'asleep' saints that had died with Him from Heaven, as they will be raised from the dead first. And there is NO Bible Scripture that says the resurrection of the dead happens Prior to the "great tribulation."

1 Thess 4:14-16
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

Also Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 showed the resurrection with the change to the spiritual body will happen on the "last trump", or 7th Trumpet which is the final trumpet of Revelation 11 when all kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Christ, as written.

 

[Davy]

Lol
Jesus said " one taken, one left behind" so what you DID WAS CHANGE WHAT HE SAID to "God killed them all."
1) nowhere in the flood was half of any dynamic mentioned.
2) no where in the future is the world's population completely destroyed.

Your idea is completely 'off the wall', like you're on drugs or something.

When Jesus said the day of His coming would be with two in the field, one taken and the other left, His disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord?" And below is what HE... answered...

Luke 17:36-37
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

The Matthew 24:28 version of Christ's answer shows those gathered where those eagles will be, is like a DEAD CARCASE; it cannot mean Christ's coming to rapture His Church!

It means just the opposite; the deceived being TAKEN to where the fowls are that eat on a DEAD CARCASE. Those eagles represent those fowls. And the dead "carcase" represents the deceived who are gathered instead to Satan's host instead of waiting on Lord Jesus to return later.

 

[David in NJ]

If you want me to ignore the pretrib rapture verses and join you in your doctrine, you need to get real.

You did nothing of the kind.
Even when I told you the bible takes authority in my doctrine.

You can bring up 50 dead men to justify going extra biblical.
Find 25 that believe like you and 25nthat believe like me.
You prove zero.
Get a bible and prove the pretrib rapture verses are Actually Jesus in confusion.
That is your assignment.
First get a bible.

If you ignore the error of pre-trib, you will be able to SEE the Truth in the Scriptures.

But that requires sacrifice = which you are not willing......

 

[rebuilder 454]

God did kill them all except the ones in the Ark, His return is like the time of Noah.
Genesis 6:17
And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.

1. Genesis 7:15
   And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life.
2. Genesis 7:22
   All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.

If when Christ returns you are not found in Him you will die, everyone will die who is not saved-redeemed by Christ at His returning, because in Christ is the breath of LIFE, Christ is the way, the truth, the life.

1. Acts 17:28
   for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For weare also His offspring.’
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 2 Corinthians 13:4
   For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Himby the power of God toward you.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. 1 Peter 2:24
   who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. 1 John 4:9
   In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

Nope

Jesus, USES PART ,of the Noah story, PREFLOOD...YES PREFLOOD.
In the ACTUAL rapture there is :
No killing of every human,
no flood,
no boat,
no eight people saved.
So either seek the meaning, of Jesus's BEFORE THE FLOOD ANALOGY, or just try and impose a FALSE post flood removal.

I know...you opt for a post flood removal.
( which is not only wrong, but ridiculous)

 

[rebuilder 454]

That Lord Jesus Christ said He comes AFTER... the tribulation is not MY doctrine. It is HIS.

So WHY... do YOU reject what Lord Jesus Christ said? ...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV


Also, Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 showed the SAME TIMING ABOVE when Paul showed Jesus comes He will bring the 'asleep' saints that had died with Him from Heaven, as they will be raised from the dead first. And there is NO Bible Scripture that says the resurrection of the dead happens Prior to the "great tribulation."

1 Thess 4:14-16
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

Also Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 showed the resurrection with the change to the spiritual body will happen on the "last trump", or 7th Trumpet which is the final trumpet of Revelation 11 when all kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Christ, as written.

2 different references to a postrib GATHERING FROM HEAVEN.
One of which includes the "UTTERMOST PART", ( THE HEAVENS), OF EARTH.
I 100% AGREE with the scripture.
You guys got an actual passage to point to your theory?
You correctly point out a Postrib rapture NOT FROM EARTH...but from heaven
Why do you reject what is said, by Jesus, in the gathering from heaven postrib , and the Noah story?
You need both to fit your tired doctrine of men.
Anyone with a bible can see you changed both to attempt to force fit a false postrib rapture.

VIA IGNORING/OMITTING the pretrib rapture verses.
Not at all honest exegesis .
Deception big time

 

[rebuilder 454]

I think the 'AC' - Beast system of world government kills whoever is in their power-control, those they have physical possession of such person.

The way it is written
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause to be killed as many as would not worship the image of the beast.

Can also imply that a person has to presented such a choice! In front of an authority of that world government.

It does not imply there is no way of escape, but one exists simply by being somewhere else.
A pre trib rapturist says that is the escape.
A post trib raptuist says there is for some a means of escape before the rapture.

The bible says the AC is given power to overcome the saints.
The bible says every man woman and child accept the mark not written in the book.
The bible says the saints overcome the AC, by NOT LOVING THEIR LIVES UNTO DEATH.

They die.
There is no saints to rapture postrib.
1) you do not understand the purpose of the Tribulation.
2) you did not understand the purpose of the rapture
3) you do not understand the gathering of the Jews.
Which is explained in romans nine through eleven

 

[Scott Downey]

Nope

Jesus, USES PART ,of the Noah story, PREFLOOD...YES PREFLOOD.
In the ACTUAL rapture there is :
No killing of every human,
no flood,
no boat,
no eight people saved.
So either seek the meaning, of Jesus's BEFORE THE FLOOD ANALOGY, or just try and impose a FALSE post flood removal.

I know...you opt for a post flood removal.
( which is not only wrong, but ridiculous)

Your not believing what Christ says about His own return.
Not only Christ speaks this way, so does Paul

All are destroyed who do not believe at the return of Christ; this is a consistent theme in the NT
Jesus saves us from the wrath of God to come on the unbelieving on that DAY
Luke 17

22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, [h]‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:

27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 12 - New King James Version

The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon - Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold...

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6 And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became examples to all in Macedonia and Achaia who believe. 8 For from you the word of the Lord has sounded forth, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place. Your faith toward God has gone out, so that we do not need to say anything.

9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,

10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 1 - New King James Version

Greeting - Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. God’s Final Judgment and Glory - We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting...

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3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you,

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

 

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: Malachi 4 - New King James Version

The Great Day of God - “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the Lord of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name The Sun of...

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1 “For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.

3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

 

[Scott Downey]

Unless you believe in Him your not going to be saved.
When He returns He returns to judge the world in righteousness.

If you do not believe, having placed your trust in Him to be your savior, you have no imputed righteousness from God, and you are not saved from His wrath.

Acts 17
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the [i]Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one [j]blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.

30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

 

[Scott Downey]

John 3

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

 

[Scott Downey]

The bible says the AC is given power to overcome the saints.
The bible says every man woman and child accept the mark not written in the book.
The bible says the saints overcome the AC, by NOT LOVING THEIR LIVES UNTO DEATH.

They die.
There is no saints to rapture postrib.
1) you do not understand the purpose of the Tribulation.
2) you did not understand the purpose of the rapture
3) you do not understand the gathering of the Jews.
Which is explained in romans nine through eleven

​

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Thessalonians 4 - New King James Version

Plea for Purity - Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your...

www.biblegateway.com

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Clearly there are living saints on the earth at the Day of the Lord's returning.
To read this any other way, like inserting a pause, like Christ partially comes back halting His return, is warping these scriptures and all the others that talk about His return

 

[Scott Downey]

Revelation 13 has the idea of some taken into captivity, meaning not immediately killed by the Beast world system
ELSE, why the mention for the patience of the saints? Who needs patience to endure? The ones taken captive...

The saints are to trust in God and have faithful patience awaiting their deliverance coming for them from Heaven with the return of Christ.

Jesus said we believers are not of the world, not earthly, we are of God.

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to [c]continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every [d]tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the [e]patience and the faith of the saints.

Some are led into captivity, and some are killed with the sword, like perhaps beheaded. But the ones who do that to the faithful in Christ shall also receive the same back again from God.

2 Thess 1
6 For it is a righteous thing with God to recompense with tribulation those who trouble you;

7 and to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.