Exactly! What about the early Church persecution? What about the 40 million believers martyred by the Roman Catholic church?
The First Resurrection
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
LOF and wicked burned is post mil.When Jesus returns it is the 'end of this world'
Read in context, whole chapter, anyone can see that
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you, in both of which I stir up your purity of mind by way of remembrance,
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Peter 3 - 21st Century King James Version
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you, in both of which I stir up your purity of mind by way of remembrance, that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first...www.biblegateway.com
2 that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior,
3 knowing this first: that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts
4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.”
5 For of this they are willfully ignorant: that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water,
6 whereby the world as it then was, being overflowed with water, perished.
7 But the heavens and the earth which now are, by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing: that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy manner of living and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening unto the coming of the Day of God, wherein the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Therefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given unto him, hath written unto you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things. Therein are some things hard to understand, which those who are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing that ye know these things beforehand, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.
18 But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Anyone can see that
v24-27 is the rapture, and it is after the great tribulation, and after the false antichrist prophet who shows signs and wonders to deceive the deceivable. Jesus teaches no other gathering of HIS elect believing people.
Bible Gateway passage: Mark 13 - 21st Century King James Version
And as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said unto Him, "Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!" And Jesus answering, said unto him, "Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down." And as He...
21 And then if any man shall say to you, ‘Lo, here is Christ!’ or, ‘Lo, He is there!’ believe him not;
22 for false christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed; behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, ‘the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.’
26 And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
QUOTEv24-27 is the rapture, and it is after the great tribulation, and after the false antichrist prophet who shows signs and wonders to deceive the deceivable. Jesus teaches no other gathering of HIS elect believing people.
Bible Gateway passage: Mark 13 - 21st Century King James Version
And as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said unto Him, "Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!" And Jesus answering, said unto him, "Seest thou these great buildings? There shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down." And as He...
21 And then if any man shall say to you, ‘Lo, here is Christ!’ or, ‘Lo, He is there!’ believe him not;
22 for false christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed; behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, ‘the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.’
26 And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
"Jesus teaches no other gathering of his elect people"
Matthew 24 has 2 separate gatherings. (Ironically...TAUGHT BY JESUS)
One ,postrib, WITH angels sent TO GATHER. ( Jesus stays...sends angels), so we know that CAN NOT POSSIBLY be the Rapture. 100% impossible.
The other coming , TAUGHT BY JESUS, (that is never in a postrib workbook) is "before the flood, normal life and everyday activities, with commerce,one taken, o n e left behind watch and be ready"
( which VIVIDLY, VIVIDLY depicts a PRETRIB RAPTURE.)
The third coming, which is never in any post tribber workbook, is revelation14 and verse 14, where Jesus is sitting on a cloud, holding a sickle, and gathering the elect.
That's the third one that you say does not exist and that Jesus never taught.
all 3 of those Comings are distinct, and separate.
They lineup perfectly with God's purpose.
that's the key missing ingredient; that you do not know the purpose of the rapture, you don't know the purpose of the groom coming for the bride and what that purpose is.
you don't know the purpose of the tribulation, you don't know the purpose of the Antichrist, you don't know the purpose of the Jewish people gathered, you do not know who the 144000 are, their distinct ethnic dynamic, and what they're purposes which is, or the main Jewish harvest, AFTER FIRSTFRUIT JEWS ARE HARVESTED IN REV 14, as prophesied in roman's chapter 9 through 11.
you're just tribulations, centered. All you can think about is the great tribulation. And how you're gonna stock up with can goods.
Postribbers have that exact prism, inspite of the bible.
Tons and tons of omissions, and actually reframing verses.
It is sad, and has left you guys with TOTAL misunderstanding OF END TIMES PURPOSE.
GOD'S PURPOSE.
BTW, YOUR ONLY verse of "after the trib"....when you post it, you are TESTIFYING, that that gathering is not including Jesus himself.( Jesus sends angels and excludes himself)
You guys BUILT AN ENTIRE DOCTRINE, BASED ON A GATHERING EXCLUDING JESUS, and are oblivious to it.
BIZARRE
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It is just a further explaining of the same rapture event, not a seperate rapture....How many raptures? How many gatherings?
There is only ONE...
One coming of Christ yet to come, and One gathering to Him, there is nothing else.
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 2 - 21st Century King James Version
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto Him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if from us that the Day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means, for...
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 that ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if from us that the Day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for that Day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth as God in the temple of God, showing himself to be God.
5 Remember ye not that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth, that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth back will hold him back, until he is taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming—
9 even him, whose coming is according to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 and with all the deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
12 that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you for salvation, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14 whereunto He called you by our Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold to the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word or our epistle.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God even our Father, who hath loved us and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.
And that is what the angels say, for further confirmation!
www.biblegateway.com
In the former treatise, O Theophilus, I have given an account of all that Jesus began both to do and teach
2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He had given commandments through the Holy Ghost unto the apostles, whom He had chosen.
3 To these also He showed Himself alive after His passion by many infallible proofs, being seen by them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, “which,” saith He, “ye have heard from Me;
5 for John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
6 When they therefore had come together, they asked of Him, saying, “Lord, wilt Thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?”
7 And He said unto them, “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father hath put in His own power.
8 But ye shall receive power after the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, “Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven.”
12 Then they returned unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day’s journey.
13 And when they had come in, they went up into an upper room where abode both Peter and James, and John and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the brother of James.
Bible Gateway passage: Acts 1 - 21st Century King James Version
In the former treatise, O Theophilus, I have given an account of all that Jesus began both to do and teach until the day in which He was taken up, after He had given commandments through the Holy Ghost unto the apostles, whom He had chosen. To these also He showed Himself alive after His passion...
2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He had given commandments through the Holy Ghost unto the apostles, whom He had chosen.
3 To these also He showed Himself alive after His passion by many infallible proofs, being seen by them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, “which,” saith He, “ye have heard from Me;
5 for John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”
6 When they therefore had come together, they asked of Him, saying, “Lord, wilt Thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?”
7 And He said unto them, “It is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father hath put in His own power.
8 But ye shall receive power after the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, “Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into Heaven.”
12 Then they returned unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day’s journey.
13 And when they had come in, they went up into an upper room where abode both Peter and James, and John and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the brother of James.
When He comes again a second time, He comes with clouds, just as was shown to the apostles when He ascended
Revelation 1:7
Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen.
Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, “I am; and ye shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”
Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This cloud is a divine sign of God, pointing to His authority and divine nature.
Luke 9:34
While he thus spoke, there came a cloud and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered into the cloud.
Luke 9:35
And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, “This Is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!”
Revelation 1:7
Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen.
Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, “I am; and ye shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”
Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This cloud is a divine sign of God, pointing to His authority and divine nature.
Luke 9:34
While he thus spoke, there came a cloud and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered into the cloud.
Luke 9:35
And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, “This Is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!”
All the scriptures which contain 'cloud', and in that you can see the divine pattern of God that He uses to show men that He is Heavenly.
www.biblegateway.com
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: cloud
- Revelation 1:7
Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Revelation 10:1
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud; and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Revelation 11:12
And they heard a great voice from Heaven, saying unto them, “Come up hither!” And they ascended up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beheld them.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Revelation 14:14
And I looked, and behold, a white cloud; and upon the cloud sat one like unto the Son of Man, having on his head a golden crown and in his hand a sharp sickle.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Revelation 14:15
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, “Thrust in thy sickle and reap; for the time has come for thee to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations - Revelation 14:16
And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
