The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Phoneman777]

God would not be good if he did not punish sinners. He would not be merciful if he didn't save some.

I agree. His justice demands death to the sinner, but His love compels Him to justify those who call out to Him for mercy in repentance.

 

[Dave L]

I agree. His justice demands death to the sinner, but His love compels Him to justify those who call out to Him for mercy in repentance.

Only those he has mercy on will call out. The rest love their sin more.

 

[Nancy]

First off, atoning sacrifice, propitiation in other versions, means God’s wrath has been appeased, satiated, placated, satisfied. In other words, He is satisfied with the Christ’s work He was sent to accomplish. Now, if everybody whoever lived sins were propitiated, then everybody whoever lived sins are forgiven and everybody ends up saved.

I cannot agree with this at all. Those who were dead before Jesus Sacrifice, were looking forward, with faith in their savior. If they had no faith in His coming then, I would say they were not saved. Only those with faith in His coming were saved.
BTW-I do know what "atoning sacrifice" and "propitiation" means. And, that awesome gift was to be offered to ALL people. I will never believe TULIP...especially the L and I. Sorry SG, these are my thoughts and beliefs on the matter.
God Bless,
nancy

 

[Phoneman777]

First off, atoning sacrifice, propitiation in other versions, means God’s wrath has been appeased, satiated, placated, satisfied. In other words, He is satisfied with the Christ’s work He was sent to accomplish. Now, if everybody whoever lived sins were propitiated, then everybody whoever lived sins are forgiven and everybody ends up saved.

Christ's sacrifice does indeed appease God's wrath against sinners - but only those sinners who accept by faith His grace demonstrated on the Cross of Calvary...as in the case where those who refused to bring a lamb to the door of the sanctuary were cut off, so it is for everyone from Adam to the last one.

 

[Phoneman777]

Only those he has mercy on will call out. The rest love their sin more.

His mercy is extended for "whosoever".

 

[Dave L]

Christ's sacrifice does indeed appease God's wrath against sinners - but only those sinners who accept by faith His grace demonstrated on the Cross of Calvary...as in the case where those who refused to bring a lamb to the door of the sanctuary were cut off, so it is for everyone from Adam to the last one.

= salvation by works.

 

[Dave L]

His mercy is extended for "whosoever".

But only those who already believe (are saved according to Jesus) believe enough to respond.

 

[Phoneman777]

But only those who already believe (are saved according to Jesus) believe enough to respond.

Only two kinds of people: the saved and the lost, the alive and the dead.

No third option, which Calvinism claims is "the lost who have no chance to be saved"

 

[Dave L]

The lost do not want to

Only two kinds of people: the saved and the lost, the alive and the dead.

No third option, which Calvinism claims is "the lost who have no chance to be saved"

They do not want to be saved. They think it is foolishness unless God opens their heart to hear and believe.

 

[marks]

But if God doesn't direct your steps who does?
“O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” (Jeremiah 10:23)

So then you are saying "direct his steps" = "decide everything for him"? Is that correct?

Much love!

 

[Dave L]

So then you are saying "direct his steps" = "decide everything for him"? Is that correct?

Much love!

We always choose for the reason God provides that he uses to control us. But it is always our free choice based on his reason. In this God gets the glory when you make good choices, instead of you getting it.

 

[Phoneman777]

= salvation by works.

Choice is not "works", it's thought.

 

[Dave L]

Choice is not "works", it's thought.

If salvation depends on it, it is works. If it depends on salvation, it is grace.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

If salvation depends on it, it is works. If it depends on salvation, it is grace.

Amen

 

[marks]

They do not want to be saved. They think it is foolishness unless God opens their heart to hear and believe.

There's more to it than that.

Titus 2 YLT
11 For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,
12 teaching us, that denying the impiety and the worldly desires, soberly and righteously and piously we may live in the present age,
13 waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
14 who did give himself for us, that he might ransom us from all lawlessness, and might purify to himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works;
15 these things be speaking, and exhorting, and convicting, with all charge; let no one despise thee!

John 1:9 "He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;"

God brings grace and light to all, desiring all to be saved. He reconciled the world to Himself. Now we are urged, be reconciled to God.

Why does God urge someone to be reconciled to Himself if He already has decided that they won't? That would be God pretending to want someone reconciled to Himself that God actually doesn't want reconciled to Himself.

And if He's already chosen to kill a sinner, would it not please Him that His will is accomplished? Therefore another place becomes dishonest, when God tells us that He is not pleased with the death of the sinner.

Is this not so?

Much love!

 

[Dave L]

There's more to it than that.

Titus 2 YLT
11 For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,
12 teaching us, that denying the impiety and the worldly desires, soberly and righteously and piously we may live in the present age,
13 waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
14 who did give himself for us, that he might ransom us from all lawlessness, and might purify to himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works;
15 these things be speaking, and exhorting, and convicting, with all charge; let no one despise thee!

John 1:9 "He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;"

God brings grace and light to all, desiring all to be saved. He reconciled the world to Himself. Now we are urged, be reconciled to God.

Why does God urge someone to be reconciled to Himself if He already has decided that they won't? That would be God pretending to want someone reconciled to Himself that God actually doesn't want reconciled to Himself.

And if He's already chosen to kill a sinner, would it not please Him that His will is accomplished? Therefore another place becomes dishonest, when God tells us that He is not pleased with the death of the sinner.

Is this not so?

Much love!

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (John 3:19–21)

 

[Phoneman777]

But only those who already believe (are saved according to Jesus) believe enough to respond.

How is it that you claim one's "choice" to accept or reject the offer of grace is salvation by works, but one's "response" to accept or reject the same is not? Don't both "choice" and "response" describe what's known as "thought"?

 

[marks]

God would not be good if he did not punish sinners. He would not be merciful if he didn't save some.

Good, or merciful, or just, none of these have any meaning in a context of God Alone the Story-teller, Who alone decided who will and who won't receive His mercy, and the rest He "justly" punishes, Hmm . . . that one, and that one . . . and that one! They deserve it! Well, they all deserve it! They did everything I wanted them to do, and now they must die!

I'm sorry, but that's how this tracks for me.

Much love!

 

[Dave L]

How is it that you claim one's "choice" to accept or reject the offer of grace is salvation by works, but one's "response" to the offer of grace is not? Don't both "choice" and "response" describe what's known as "thought"?

In our natural state we are spiritually dead and cannot discern God in truth. So we always worship idols bearing his name instead. But if he imparts the new birth, we can then discern him and follow him in our love for him.

 

[marks]

We always choose for the reason God provides that he uses to control us. But it is always our free choice based on his reason. In this God gets the glory when you make good choices, instead of you getting it.

That doesn't work.

Someone sets the play in motion.

I steal a candy bar. God get's the glory for that too.

It's just the same.

Much love!