The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[farouk]

Actually it’s not Reformed theology 101 . Read up on it . I suggest you read of course Calvin , Bucer ,Zwingli , Bullinger, Beza, and Farel . Even Luther was a complete inability guy . Funny thing is all those guys were Calvinist before Calvin. You will not find total depravity in any of their writings. I won’t spoil it for y’all but their views of those destined for hell as you put it is nowhere near what you posted .
Just a little side note concerning Jeremiah 29:11 it’s about a future event . It’s about what they will do . If God said it will happen then it’s set in stone that will happen correct ?
Blessings
Bill

Even if one doesn't read any of those authors, John 6 still stresses both Divine sovereignty and human responsibility.

 

[farouk]

I guess I need to read up on this Calvin guy, because it seem to be as if he thought God should receive all the glory.

Good way of putting it...

 

[Laish]

I guess I need to read up on this Calvin guy, because it seem to be as if he thought God should receive all the glory.

Yes He and they did believe that . It’s just that what is stated above by some folks is not what the biblical reformed belief is . It’s Like some guy driving a 1982 Toyota pickup truck calling it a BMW convertible.
Blessings
Bill

 

[farouk]

Yes He and they did believe that . It’s just that what is stated above by some folks is not what the biblical reformed belief is . It’s Like some guy driving a 1982 Toyota pickup truck calling it a BMW convertible.
Blessings
Bill

Or like a rusty, backfiring Lada manufactured in Volgograd...

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Nancy,

[Antinomianists ]
Could you explain what this is? I have no idea what this is.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

When considering the Five Points of Calvinism, the first point - "total depravity" - insists that:

• man, being dead in sin, cannot desire to escape the punishment of sin any more than a dead man desires to escape the grave he's buried in
• man cannot "accept Christ" as his Savior from sin because "accepting" is an act of works which would render his salvation by works.

However, when we consider that "she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth" - we see the Bible puts spiritual death in the present tense while we are yet alive. Though being spritually dead, we can still respond to God's generous invitation to "come now, let us reason together."

Reasoning together for what purpose? For God to justify to the lost His "celestial eternal-life lottery" of which they can't even buy a ticket? Obviously, He asks us to "reason together" with Him so that we can make an informed choice about the crucial issue He so desperately wants us to consider: "sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness". The choice to accept Jesus as Savior is not "works", but a thought.

The battle for our eternal destiny begins and ends in the mind, by either choosing to remain a servant of sin or choosing salvation by grace through faith in Christ through which God makes us a child of the King.

Your post has nothing to do with total depravity.it looks as if you do not understand the issue.

 

[Phoneman777]

Actually it’s not Reformed theology 101 . Read up on it . I suggest you read of course Calvin , Bucer ,Zwingli , Bullinger, Beza, and Farel . Even Luther was a complete inability guy . Funny thing is all those guys were Calvinist before Calvin. You will not find total depravity in any of their writings. I won’t spoil it for y’all but their views of those destined for hell as you put it is nowhere near what you posted .
Just a little side note concerning Jeremiah 29:11 it’s about a future event . It’s about what they will do . If God said it will happen then it’s set in stone that will happen correct ?
Blessings
Bill

We should EXPECT these men should mention the concept of “predestination” - its in Scripture. The debate is over how to interpret the idea based on whether “Free Will Choice” belongs to the human family or not...whether divine foreknowledge of who would CHOOSE to be saved or lost was the basis for predestination of those choosing the one or the other.

Who but only those seeking to escape responsibility for the eternal consequences of their temporal choices could ever be pleased with the notion that the power of choice doesn’t belong to us, ESPECIALLY when “choose you this day whom ye will serve” is such an integral, inseparable concept found Scripture?

 

[Phoneman777]

Your post has nothing to do with total depravity.it looks as if you do not understand the issue.

I understand it enough to know Calvinists believe “predestination” means most don’t get a chance to buy a ticket in God’s Eternal Life Lotto.

Lucifer worshipers believe the EXACT same thing: that they are among a “special” select few chosen to be “illuminated” by him while the rest of us are regarded as “undeserved” and “profane” - and the result is a bunch of “entitlement mentality” control freaks running the political, economic, entertainment, and religious world who look down at the rest of us with both disdain for even existing and license to exploit us to death.

Amazing how Satan can employ the same lie to deceive both those within and without the church, isn’t it?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I understand it enough to know Calvinists believe “predestination” means most don’t get a chance to buy a ticket in God’s Eternal Life Lotto.

Lucifer worshipers believe the EXACT same thing: that they are among a “special” select few chosen to be “illuminated” by him while the rest of us are regarded as “undeserved” and “profane” - and the result is a bunch of “entitlement mentality” control freaks running the political, economic, entertainment, and religious world who look down at the rest of us with both disdain for even existing and license to exploit us to death.

Amazing how Satan can employ the same lie to deceive both those within and without the church, isn’t it?

There you go, attaboy, linking up Lucifer with Calvinists again!

It doesn't matter that all your accusations are false to you, doesn't matter, and it doesn't matter to you that you don't know what total depravity means either. Yours is like a preacher that reads a verse then preaches about nothing contained in that verse, it just serves a purpose in order to slander.

You're doing a bang up job as long as you avoid Scripture, make up your own definitions, make up your own facts, and libel others.

Fact is Scripture teaches that not all will be saved, not all will hear, and that some will, without hearing, be justly condemned as sinners. Your issue isn't really with us, it's with God.

Furthermore we could pull your same accusations on you, showing your thinking is flawed and inconsistent. Nowhere in Scripture are all going to hear, or get a chance to be saved, or vote themselves into heaven. Here you go: Your belief then, since not in Scripture must be a belief of you "enlightened ones" while us "underserved" and "profane" Calvinists are left to hell.

One last thing, you used the word "undeserved" in a sense that you think people "deserve" heaven. Guess what? They don't. Your entire premise is libelous, flawed, filled with false definitions and false accusations, but that won't mean you'll end doing it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I understand it enough to know Calvinists believe “predestination” means most don’t get a chance to buy a ticket in God’s Eternal Life Lotto.

Lucifer worshipers believe the EXACT same thing: that they are among a “special” select few chosen to be “illuminated” by him while the rest of us are regarded as “undeserved” and “profane” - and the result is a bunch of “entitlement mentality” control freaks running the political, economic, entertainment, and religious world who look down at the rest of us with both disdain for even existing and license to exploit us to death.

Amazing how Satan can employ the same lie to deceive both those within and without the church, isn’t it?

Hey @"ByGrace" are you going to tell him off for being unfriendly, seeing he is calling us the same as devil worshippers, or are you going to give him a pass as he agrees with much of your theology?

 

[SovereignGrace]

There you go, attaboy, linking up Lucifer with Calvinists again!

It doesn't matter that all your accusations are false to you, doesn't matter, and it doesn't matter to you that you don't know what total depravity means either. Yours is like a preacher that reads a verse then preaches about nothing contained in that verse, it just serves a purpose in order to slander.

You're doing a bang up job as long as you avoid Scripture, make up your own definitions, make up your own facts, and libel others.

Fact is Scripture teaches that not all will be saved, not all will hear, and that some will, without hearing, be justly condemned as sinners. Your issue isn't really with us, it's with God.

Furthermore we could pull your same accusations on you, showing your thinking is flawed and inconsistent. Nowhere in Scripture are all going to hear, or get a chance to be saved, or vote themselves into heaven. Here you go: Your belief then, since not in Scripture must be a belief of you "enlightened ones" while us "underserved" and "profane" Calvinists are left to hell.

One last thing, you used the word "undeserved" in a sense that you think people "deserve" heaven. Guess what? They don't. Your entire premise is libelous, flawed, filled with false definitions and false accusations, but that won't mean you'll end doing it.

They are the idolaters who worship their (mythical) free will more than God. Let someone attack the divinity of the Christ and its crickets. Let someone say there is no free will and they attack like a swarm of bees.

In fact, @Phoneman777 said the Christ laid aside His divinity, and nary a rebuke from them.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

They are the idolaters who worship their (mythical) free will more than God. Let someone attack the divinity of the Christ and its crickets. Let someone say there is no free will and they attack like a swarm of bees.

In fact, @Phoneman777 said the Christ laid aside His divinity, and nary a rebuke from them.

What is happening here is they simply make up what we believe, make false accusations, and don't bat an eye when shown their entire premise is based on falsities. This has never stopped them.

On the other hand, we don't falsely misrepresent their beliefs, but accurately, and take their beliefs head on disproving them with Scripture. @Phoneman777 has yet to argue in truth, represent definitions accurately, or make a case from Scripture. Complete waste of time. Sadly, he just doesn't know much of Scripture or of the true God contained therein. He's following the traits of some other entity obviously because his posts are filled with libel, slander, lies, not truth, and not Bible.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Hey @"ByGrace" are you going to tell him off for being unfriendly, seeing he is calling us the same as devil worshippers, or are you going to give him a pass as he agrees with much of your theology?

To @"ByGrace" unfriendly means those who are dismantling the beliefs of others by using Scripture, while being attacked by the same with libel and false accusations. Seems to be a trait here among their ilk, this misdefining everything.

 

[Taken]

[QUOTE="Enoch111, post: 548040, member: 7853] God saves each and every sinner from eternal Hell....
[/QUOTE]

Sin AGAINST God;
IS a mans DISBELIEF, IN God.

Please elaborate on your statement of HOW it is so, that God Saves (from Eternal hell) Each and Every sinner who IS "AGAINST" God.

Thank you,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

The same old stupid mantra being repeated. What robs God of His glory is denying the power of the Gospel, and asserting that the Gospel is all about sovereignty rather than grace.

Another stupid remark which fails to take into account the reason for the Gospel. God saves people by His grace because He foresees their FAITH in Christ, not their goodness.

People need to stop making foolish remarks in order to support their false theology. Time to grow up and get real.

You rob God of his glory when you claim free will saves people.

Here's a set of lyrics I wrote so free willers can sing Amazing Grace without lying.

Poet's Corner

 

[Taken]

Also, Calvinists aren’t alone in their insistence that “choice” is an act of "works"...

Agree.

Choices, Works, Service, Obedience ~

Are all intermingled, Presicely; Because they pertain to Each Individual, in Relationship OF THAT Individual TO God...and TO Christ.

The problem within All religions;
Is Faulty Teaching
And
Is Faulty Acceptance

That...
Choices, Works, Service, Obedience,
Are defined By the Same meanings and Actions; When that is Not True.

Without two establishing a common ground on what words mean and their applicability...
Conversations, Debates are a pointless, meaningless circle jerks that turn to personal jabs, evidenced by umpteen posts on this forum and other media outlets.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[SovereignGrace]

To @"ByGrace" unfriendly means those who are dismantling the beliefs of others by using Scripture, while being attacked by the same with libel and false accusations. Seems to be a trait here among their ilk, this misdefining everything.

It’s obvious we’all never get a fair shake on any of these boards. We get called many things, even devil worshippers now.

Old Socrates nailed it...

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.

― Socrates

 

[Preacher4Truth]

It’s obvious we’all never get a fair shake on any of these boards. We get called many things, even devil worshippers now.

Old Socrates nailed it...

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.

― Socrates

Since when have those declaring themselves to be in God's kingdom not hated when they heard God's word being declared to them? They've always liked the smooth things, to think of God only in terms they like, and in terms that made them feel good about themselves. Preach what God really says and they tear into you. Same thing since the beginning so no surprise here.

 

[Enoch111]

Please elaborate on your statement of HOW it is so, that God Saves (from Eternal hell) Each and Every sinner who IS "AGAINST" God.

Of course everyone is against God until they hear the Gospel, repent, and believe of the Lord Jesus Christ. Only then are they saved.

Why did you take a partial quote of what I said to misrepresent it. Here is the complete post:"No one is denying this. God saves each and every sinner from eternal Hell entirely by His grace, and only because of the finished work of Christ, not for any goodness in anyone.That does not in any way diminish the need to obey the Gospel.Please read and study Romans 10 in its entirety."

The point under discussion was the grace of God. And those who are saved are all saved by the grace of God, but as stated above That does not in any way diminish the need to obey the Gospel.

Total Depravity turns everything on its head, and claims that because no one can respond to, or obey, the Gospel, they are FIRST regenerated, then believe, and then they are saved. And that is TOTALLY ABSURD and contrary to the Bible. So if that is your belief, it is unbiblical and you should give it up.

 

[Dave L]

Of course everyone is against God until they hear the Gospel, repent, and believe of the Lord Jesus Christ. Only then are they saved.

Why did you take a partial quote of what I said to misrepresent it. Here is the complete post:"No one is denying this. God saves each and every sinner from eternal Hell entirely by His grace, and only because of the finished work of Christ, not for any goodness in anyone.That does not in any way diminish the need to obey the Gospel.Please read and study Romans 10 in its entirety."

The point under discussion was the grace of God. And those who are saved are all saved by the grace of God, but as stated above That does not in any way diminish the need to obey the Gospel.

Total Depravity turns everything on its head, and claims that because no one can respond to, or obey, the Gospel, they are FIRST regenerated, then believe, and then they are saved. And that is TOTALLY ABSURD and contrary to the Bible. So if that is your belief, it is unbiblical and you should give it up.

Only the born again can grasp this truth.