The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[farouk]

If people are not totally depraved, they rob God of his glory in salvation. Thinking God saved them because of some foreseen goodness in them.

Yes, indeed; and a thorough reading of the Epistle to the Ephesians may enable ppl to take this to heart.

 

[farouk]

Did you read where it says “the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance”?

Proves two things:

That the depraved are not so filthy as to be beyond the reach of God’s love.

That the love of God is more than enough to both convince the depraved of their filthiness and cleanse all who accept His invitation to be clean.

...but it's not filthy us, but God's grace, that leads us there...

 

[Waiting on him]

My question is not 'Why?' to God, but, 'What does He reveal in His Word'?

Maybe the why informs the how.

 

[farouk]

Maybe the why informs the how.

My point was that our eminently trustworthy God is sovereign and He knows why, whether or not He chooses to tell us. I guess we can say about the Scriptures that revelation is revelation, and God is God.

 

[Enoch111]

If people are not totally depraved, they rob God of his glory in salvation.

The same old stupid mantra being repeated. What robs God of His glory is denying the power of the Gospel, and asserting that the Gospel is all about sovereignty rather than grace.

Thinking God saved them because of some foreseen goodness in them.

Another stupid remark which fails to take into account the reason for the Gospel. God saves people by His grace because He foresees their FAITH in Christ, not their goodness.

People need to stop making foolish remarks in order to support their false theology. Time to grow up and get real.

 

[farouk]

The same old stupid mantra being repeated. What robs God of His glory is denying the power of the Gospel, and asserting that the Gospel is all about sovereignty rather than grace.

Another stupid remark which fails to take into account the reason for the Gospel. God saves people by His grace because He foresees their FAITH in Christ, not their goodness.

People need to stop making foolish remarks in order to support their false theology. Time to grow up and get real.

Psalm 40.2-3 is relevant also:

"He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the Lord."

It's something that God did by Himself by His grace, in bringing us out of the horrible pit.

 

[Waiting on him]

John 3:8-9 KJV
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. [9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


Tecarta BibleI believe we all know what the wind is here, blowing where it chooses

But Pharisees say how can this be. Look on me behold my righteousness!

 

[Waiting on him]

Psalm 40.2-3 is relevant also:

"He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the Lord."

It's something that God did by Himself by His grace, in bringing us out of the horrible pit.

How can these things be?

 

[farouk]

How can these things be?

It's all part of the revealed mystery of the workings of grace through faith.

 

[Enoch111]

It's something that God did by Himself by His grace, in bringing us out of the horrible pit.

No one is denying this. God saves each and every sinner from eternal Hell entirely by His grace, and only because of the finished work of Christ, not for any goodness in anyone.

That does not in any way diminish the need to obey the Gospel. Please read and study Romans 10 in its entirety.

 

[farouk]

No one is denying this. God saves each and every sinner from eternal Hell entirely by His grace, and only because of the finished work of Christ, not for any goodness in anyone.

That does not in any way diminish the need to obey the Gospel. Please read and study Romans 10 in its entirety.

In the same vein, John 6 emphasizes both Divine sovereignty and human responsibility.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6.37)

 

[Waiting on him]

No one is denying this. God saves each and every sinner from eternal Hell entirely by His grace, and only because of the finished work of Christ, not for any goodness in anyone.

That does not in any way diminish the need to obey the Gospel. Please read and study Romans 10 in its entirety.

I never read any where in scripture where Jesus said obey me.

 

[farouk]

I never read any where in scripture where Jesus said obey me.

John 14.15.

Paul also speaks at the beginning and at the end of Romans about 'the obedience of faith' and 'obedience to the faith'.

 

[Enoch111]

I never read any where in scripture where Jesus said obey me.

Do you even know what "obedience to the Gospel" means?

REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD A COMMAND
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent (Acts 17:30)

FAITH TOWARD OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST A COMMAND
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 Jn 3:23)

 

[Waiting on him]

Do you even know what "obedience to the Gospel" means?

REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD A COMMAND
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent (Acts 17:30)

FAITH TOWARD OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST A COMMAND
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 Jn 3:23)

Ok, so show me where in the gospels Jesus says obey me.

 

[Nancy]

Also, Calvinists aren’t alone in their insistence that “choice” is an act of “works” - Antinomianists subtlely suggest the same.

Fact is, God could point to the exact moment we chose to sin that very first sin, whether by thought, word or act and became lost without hope - and He requires we choose Jesus as both our Substitute Who died to pay the penalty that was ours, and our Sovereign to Whom we by His grace render loving obedience as our “reasonable service”.

Brace yourselves, here come the “we were guilty before we were born” arguments. Bring em on LOL

"Antinomianists subtlely suggest the same." Ha, subtly indeed! The Anti-n.'s as well as the Calvinists can be sneaky. After 2 plus years of attending a Reformed Baptist Church, their subtleness was more like omission. My guess is that a good 90 or more percent of those that go there have no idea that they (according to their pastor and elders) do not have free will. I "subtly" brought the subject up a few times with certain other congregants there and they have no idea. And, if TULIP is so awesome and true, why does the pastor not teaching openly about it?? My guess is that he would have a mostly empty Church...?

"Brace yourselves, here come the “we were guilty before we were born” arguments. Bring em on LOL"

Hahaha! Their all yours! They just take me in circles...they use way too much "splainin" for their doctrine to fit. The Gospel is so simple to me, or maybe it's just that I am too simple, lol.

 

[Waiting on him]

Psalm 79:9 KJV
[9] Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.

1 Corinthians 1:29 KJV
[29] That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1 Corinthians 5:6 KJV
[6] Your glorying is not good.


Tecarta Bible

Tecarta Bible
http://tbibl.es/6mE

 

[Waiting on him]

Psalm 79:9 KJV
[9] Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.

1 Corinthians 1:29 KJV
[29] That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1 Corinthians 5:6 KJV
[6] Your glorying is not good.


Tecarta Bible

Tecarta Bible
http://tbibl.es/6mE

This is the why

 

[farouk]

Psalm 79:9 KJV
[9] Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.

1 Corinthians 1:29 KJV
[29] That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1 Corinthians 5:6 KJV
[6] Your glorying is not good.


Tecarta Bible

Tecarta Bible
http://tbibl.es/6mE

This is exactly 'on target', so to speak. It's all of Him, all of grace (Ephesians 2.8-9), all glory to Him (Revelation 5.12).

 

[Phoneman777]

...but it's not filthy us, but God's grace, that leads us there...

Romans 2:4 absolutely destroys the Calvinistic idea of Total Depravity. Look at the words "leadeth" and "repentance":

• It says He "leadeth thee to repentance" - it implies an accepted invitation to follow Him to repentance, not a forced march there against their will like Jews to Auschwitz.

• It also demands those being led are yet unrepentant, having not yet reached the destination where repentance may be obtained. Once there, these depraved, unrepentant ones have opportunity to make an informed choice to either repent or refuse to do so.

A companion text in the OT is Isaiah 1:18-20:

"Come now, let us reason together...if ye be willing and obedient ye shall eat of the good of the land, but ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword, for the mouth fo the Lord hath spoekn it".​

This is the invitation of God to "lead" the depraved, unrepentant sinner to the conviction that hanging on to sin is not going to get them anywhere, and they reach the destination of where repentance may be obtained when they are convicted He's right. Once there, the informed choice is made to either repent or refuse to repent.

"Repent" is a command we're to execute, not a condition forced upon us by the god of Calvinism. The great error of Calvinism is insisting that repentance is "works" because it's a choice we make, not an action we take.