The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[farouk]

Romans 2:4 absolutely destroys the Calvinistic idea of Total Depravity. Look at the words "leadeth" and "repentance":

• It says He "leadeth thee to repentance" - it implies an accepted invitation to follow Him to repentance, not a forced march there against their will like Jews to Auschwitz.

• It also demands those being led are yet unrepentant, having not yet reached the destination where repentance may be obtained. Once there, these depraved, unrepentant ones have opportunity to make an informed choice to either repent or refuse to do so.

A companion text in the OT is Isaiah 1:18-20:

"Come now, let us reason together...if ye be willing and obedient ye shall eat of the good of the land, but ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword, for the mouth fo the Lord hath spoekn it".​

This is the invitation of God to "lead" the depraved, unrepentant sinner to the conviction that hanging on to sin is not going to get them anywhere, and they reach the destination of where repentance may be obtained when they are convicted He's right. Once there, the informed choice is made to either repent or refuse to repent.

"Repent" is a command we're to execute, not a condition forced upon us by the god of Calvinism. The great error of Calvinism is insisting that repentance is "works" because it's a choice we make, not an action we take.

He leads by grace.

 

[Phoneman777]

"Antinomianists subtlely suggest the same." Ha, subtly indeed! The Anti-n.'s as well as the Calvinists can be sneaky. After 2 plus years of attending a Reformed Baptist Church, their subtleness was more like omission. My guess is that a good 90 or more percent of those that go there have no idea that they (according to their pastor and elders) do not have free will. I "subtly" brought the subject up a few times with certain other congregants there and they have no idea. And, if TULIP is so awesome and true, why does the pastor not teaching openly about it?? My guess is that he would have a mostly empty Church...?

"Brace yourselves, here come the “we were guilty before we were born” arguments. Bring em on LOL"

Hahaha! Their all yours! They just take me in circles...they use way too much "splainin" for their doctrine to fit. The Gospel is so simple to me, or maybe it's just that I am too simple, lol.

I'm sure most agree by your posts that you're FAR from simple - like Mensa level far

BTW, Paul says no shame in being simple when we're "wise unto that which is good but simple concerning evil".

 

[Phoneman777]

He leads by grace.

Praise God!

 

[Nancy]

I'm sure most agree by your posts that you're FAR from simple - like Mensa level far

BTW, Paul says no shame in being simple when we're "wise unto that which is good but simple concerning evil".

"like Mensa level far " <--- Laughing way out loud! Surely you jest! But gee, tanx
"wise unto that which is good but simple concerning evil"
I may be childlike in some ways but, I'm not innocent, lol. Good scripture quote BTW ♥

 

[Preacher4Truth]

When considering the Five Points of Calvinism, the first point - "total depravity" - insists that:

• man, being dead in sin, cannot desire to escape the punishment of sin any more than a dead man desires to escape the grave he's buried in
• man cannot "accept Christ" as his Savior from sin because "accepting" is an act of works which would render his salvation by works.

However, when we consider that "she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth" - we see the Bible puts spiritual death in the present tense while we are yet alive. Though being spritually dead, we can still respond to God's generous invitation to "come now, let us reason together."

Reasoning together for what purpose? For God to justify to the lost His "celestial eternal-life lottery" of which they can't even buy a ticket? Obviously, He asks us to "reason together" with Him so that we can make an informed choice about the crucial issue He so desperately wants us to consider: "sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness". The choice to accept Jesus as Savior is not "works", but a thought.

The battle for our eternal destiny begins and ends in the mind, by either choosing to remain a servant of sin or choosing salvation by grace through faith in Christ through which God makes us a child of the King.

Straw man argument. Why not at least try to understand total depravity instead of making up your own definition only to attack your made up definition? Is this all orchestrated to make it look like you've accomplished a victory?

 

[Phoneman777]

Straw man argument. Why not at least try to understand total depravity instead of making up your own definition only to attack your made up definition? Is this all orchestrated to make it look like you've accomplished a victory?

I didn't make that up. It's Calvinism 101. Besides, if Calvinism were true, then Jeremiah 29:11 mistakenly left out "...and to agonizingly burn with unspeakably anguish the others I predestined for the Lake of Fire."

 

[farouk]

Psalm 79:9 KJV
[9] Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.

The Psalms have such depth, such heights, such Messianic content, such inexhaustible resources for those looking for them in faith. There is often a verse or verses in the Psalms which can add to a serious doctrinal discussion, isn't there?

 

[farouk]

John 3:8-9 KJV
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. [9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


Tecarta BibleI believe we all know what the wind is here, blowing where it chooses

But Pharisees say how can this be. Look on me behold my righteousness!

Isaiah 55 is a similar passage; verse 11 particularly. "My word shall not return unto me void".

 

[Waiting on him]

Isaiah 55 is a similar passage; verse 11 particularly. "My word shall not return unto me void".

I believe that many on the Mensa list will have their portion with the goats. They’ll be saying it’s me lord, I did it, I did it all

 

[farouk]

I believe that many on the Mensa list will have their portion with the goats. They’ll be saying it’s me lord, I did it, I did it all

Simple, child-like trust is what counts in matters of faith.

 

[Waiting on him]

Simple, child-like trust is what counts in matters of faith.

Humility is becoming a thing of the past

 

[farouk]

Humility is becoming a thing of the past

Well, we need to get back to Philippians 2, to the One Who humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross.

 

[Waiting on him]

Well, we need to get back to Philippians 2, to the One Who humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross.

Psalm 115:1 KJV
[1] Not unto us, O Lord , not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.


Tecarta Bible

 

[farouk]

Psalm 115:1 KJV
[1] Not unto us, O Lord , not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.


Tecarta Bible

The sentiment fits excellently, and again from the Psalms.

 

[Waiting on him]

Isaiah 48:11 KJV
[11] For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it : for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.


Tecarta Bible

 

[farouk]

Isaiah 48:11 KJV
[11] For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it : for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.


Tecarta Bible

Thinking "upon the name" was indeed in the Old Testament the privilege of the faithful remnant amidst apostasy, as per Malachi 3.16.

 

[Waiting on him]

Thinking "upon the name" was indeed in the Old Testament the privilege of the faithful remnant amidst apostasy, as per Malachi 3.16.

Awesome chapter.

 

[farouk]

Awesome chapter.

Indeed; and there's been discussion of Malachi on another thread also.

 

[Laish]

I didn't make that up. It's Calvinism 101. Besides, if Calvinism were true, then Jeremiah 29:11 mistakenly left out "...and to agonizingly burn with unspeakably anguish the others I predestined for the Lake of Fire."

Actually it’s not Reformed theology 101 . Read up on it . I suggest you read of course Calvin , Bucer ,Zwingli , Bullinger, Beza, and Farel . Even Luther was a complete inability guy . Funny thing is all those guys were Calvinist before Calvin. You will not find total depravity in any of their writings. I won’t spoil it for y’all but their views of those destined for hell as you put it is nowhere near what you posted .
Just a little side note concerning Jeremiah 29:11 it’s about a future event . It’s about what they will do . If God said it will happen then it’s set in stone that will happen correct ?
Blessings
Bill

 

[Waiting on him]

Actually it’s not Reformed theology 101 . Read up on it . I suggest you read of course Calvin , Bucer ,Zwingli , Bullinger, Beza, and Farel . Even Luther was a complete inability guy . Funny thing is all those guys were Calvinist before Calvin. You will not find total depravity in any of their writings. I won’t spoil it for y’all but their views of those destined for hell as you put it is nowhere near what you posted .
Just a little side note concerning Jeremiah 29:11 it’s about a future event . It’s about what they will do . If God said it will happen then it’s set in stone that will happen correct ?
Blessings
Bill

I guess I need to read up on this Calvin guy, because it seem to be as if he thought God should receive all the glory.