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Featured The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Phoneman777, Apr 20, 2019.

  1. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    And your proof for that statement is?
     
  2. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    @SovereignGrace @Jon Mathews @Preacher4Truth @Laish

    Anyone?
     
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  3. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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  4. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Here is 117 page thread on this issue.

    I think it's been covered pretty thoroughly.
    Calvinism is a Cult
     
  5. Laish

    Laish Well-Known Member

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    Ok references please ? Not just a web search link
    cult
    /kəlt/
    noun
    1. a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
      "the cult of St. Olaf"
      • a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
        "a network of Satan-worshiping cults"
        synonyms: sect, religious group, denomination, religious order, church, faith, faith community, belief, persuasion, affiliation, movement; More
      • a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
        Ok show us .
        Which one.
        Blessings
        Bill
     
  6. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    @Mjh29 @Anthony D'Arienzo

    Is it your view that mankind was made by God to conform to a certain end, in which God would be glorified in those whom God alone selected becoming glorified in Christ through the cross, with the remaining, who were not selected, glorifying God in receiving the fit punishment to their sins?

    And that mankind is completely incapable of having any effect on the outcome, being completely depraved and therefore unable to do anything other than sin, unless first regenerated by the sovereign and sole act of God?

    Do I understand this right?

    Much love!
    Mark
     
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  7. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
    1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
    ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
    2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
    ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

    3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
    ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

    4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
    ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

    5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
    ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

    6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
    ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

    7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
    ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
     
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  8. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Theologically they called religion them adopts the name of a major religion but denies central beliefs thereof.

    Salvation by faith is central to the Bible.

    Freewell is central to the Bible.

    Calvinism denies both.
     
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  9. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    "Enoch111,d.


    [ROMANS 5: THE HEART OF THE GOSPEL
    5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
    8 But God commendeth [proves] his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


    There is a direct connection between the love of God and the cross of Christ not only in this passage but throughout the New Testament. And there is no mention of sovereignty, since sovereignty would focus on the wrath of God, and what the Gospel says above is "we shall be saved from wrath through him". So the glory of God is displayed in His grace through Christ, and God was glorified in Christ on the cross.]

    You quote a passage that you do not understand at all. This passage is 100% Calvinistic.
    the passage is about the elect.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  10. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    CoreIssue,

    [Freewell is central to the Bible]

    Even though it is not in the bible at all??? interesting...
     
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  11. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    post1127
     
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  12. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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  13. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure Lazarus died with as much faith in his Savior as did his sister who said, "I know my brother will live again, in the resurrection, in the last day" - which would mean he didn't die depraved, he died saved.
     
  14. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    I quoted that passage to show you (and others) that the Gospel is all about the love and grace of God. All those who have been saved by grace are the elect, but they were NOT elected for salvation (while others were ignored). All who believe -- indeed the whole world -- could become elect by obedience to the Gospel.

    And to claim that I do not understand that passage is sheer Calvinistic arrogance. Unless you can show men the word "sovereignty" in that passage, it is you who does not understand the simple Gospel.

    1. ALL ARE SINNERS
    2. CHRIST DIED FOR ALL BECAUSE OF GOD'S LOVE
    3. GOD WANTS ALL SAVED AND TO COME TO REPENTANCE
    4. ALL MAY BE SAVED IF ALL WILL OBEY THE GOSPEL
     
  15. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    The difference is calvinists read the whole passage to understand it correctly. You do not, but just offer anti biblical error.

    Who is being addressed in Romans 5:1-11 the elect. Why do I say that?
    look at who is described-

    5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

    4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

    5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

    6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

    8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

    Everything in blue speaks about the elect, not the unsaved world. The world does not have the Spirit, does not rejoice in hope, is not justified, is not reconciled....so you are clearly missing the whole passage.
     
  16. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously. The only glaring difference is that you think God elects some for salvation whereas God thinks that is utterly presumptuous.
     
  17. Preacher4Truth

    Preacher4Truth Well-Known Member

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    They're not going to discontinue taking Scripture out of context and cannot claim Paul's integrity in handling the word correctly; 2 Corinthians 2:17; 2 Corinthians 4:1ff; 2 Timothy 2:15.

    If they did they'd have to exchange their doctrine and gospel for the truth.

    But, the truth costs and they don't appear to have the means to purchase it; Proverbs 23:23. It is apparent that everything they teach is built off of out of context Scripture that is changed in order for them to arrive at their errant teachings. If they used context properly their entire message would change to truth.

    MLJ doesn't have very encouraging words for those who do these things. Note his message "Adoption" and especially about the last 12 minutes concerning those who think the things of the Spirit are "foolishness."

    Note also his message "Chosen in Him." It is excellent. In fact, all of his messages are excellent.

    I pray these will come to repentance; 2 Peter 3:9.
     
  18. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    No...the difference is we believe what is written as it is written, you scoff, and mock the truth as an unbeliever would.
    You made no comment on the Roman's 5 post. You should have said, thank you for correcting my sad post. I had no idea this is what it actually says!
     
  19. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I was hoping for a simple answer inviting discussion. I've actually read quite a bit of material of this sort.

    And listened to quite a number of reformed preachers.

    Oh well. I guess this is an answer.

    Much love!
     
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  20. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    If you want a discussion go over this line by line.
    If you agree keep going.
    When you do not agree post which sentence you do not agree with, and offer scripture why you think it is wrong.
     
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