The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

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brakelite

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Because Scripture commands us to do so, so, even being a sinful but saved creature, I obey said mandate.

You know it's in there as well. Titus 1:9 is just one example.
Oh, most assuredly so. We are to preach the gospel to every creature under heaven, and it is through the preaching of the word that faith comes. But I'm not talking about the gospel. It is the denigrating of others that is prevalent throughout your posts that I query. If people who do not, in your estimation, believe the gospel, what do you hope to accomplish by rebuking them and trekking them off? I mean, it is not as if they can change their mind right? If they are lost, why rub it in and call them out?
 

Nancy

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Ok when it gets into some details Reformed folks don’t agree like I posted above . Calvinism isn’t some monolithic denomination . There are going to be some differences in doctrine between each group.
Yea and some times folks get things wrong either out of heat of debate , or not fully understanding the subject. It happens.
. Note if it happens way too often we have to take action by taking back his or her 5 point Calvinist secret decoder ring along with their golden membership cards .

Blessings

Bill


Yes, I know of some 2 point or 3 point Calvinists but...since I only have a problem with Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible grace, does that make me a 2 point Calvinist? Am still not cemented in OSAS.
In Him,
nancy
 
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brakelite

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And while you're here @Preacher4Truth there was that question I put to you that you may have missed a few days ago. You agreed with Paul that we should examine ourselves to see iif we are in the faith. Can you explainf from your perspective why we should do this?
 
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Preacher4Truth

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... The Reformers were all Calvinistic. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Melanchton [for a time], Knox [Founder of the Presbyterian Church]

All of them were Calvinistic. And might I also say I know all of the other Reformed believers on this site are

1.) Concerned first and foremost with what the Word of God has to say, not with being right.
2.) Have thoroughly examined Calvinism as a whole [not just the 5 Points]
3.) Are more concerned with the Glory of God than worshiping the god of free will

You make it out like we just don't know what it is Calvinism teaches. On the contrary, we know it very well; much better than you do. And the fact that you would rather ignore our posts, disregard our statements, and refuse to listen to the reasoning and Scripture behind our remarks show that you are so fixated on proving that Calvinism is wrong that you ignore trying to let the Scriptures speak for themselves. It says a lot about a person when they refuse to let Scripture [as a whole, not taken out of context] correct them.

Also, most if not all of the Calvinists on this site could attest to being Arminian at one point or another. I hated Calvinism for a long time, and attacked it much the same way you do now; by telling them that if the would just 'open their eyes, they would see the truth.' The problem was, I was the blind man telling others to see. When I actually read Calvinist books, It was to tear down the philosophy and expose Calvinist as heretics. But when God opened my heart to the gospel, I was changed.

So please, do not make it out like my brothers and I do not know what we are talking about, and that the problem is that we've been indoctrinated by Calvinism, or that if we would just 'open our eyes, we would see the truth.' We've all been where you are right now, and know the Arminian stance as well as the next guy. You love to talk about the 'flaws of our theology', but when we answer your questions about the flaws, they go ignored. And I think I know why. Because if we were to answer every question, and you were to genuinely read our responses instead of casually brushing them to the side, you would see that you are the true die-hard; clinging to Arminianism at any cost; even at the cost of the truth. This is the real reason my brothers have slowed down a bit debating with you. Because you don't debate. In a debate, you deal with the opponents points, and counterpoint. What happens here is half a debate. You make an accusation, and we answer with Scripture, then ask where we went wrong. But we are never answered. It is always a 'moving right along' kind of debate, where our answers are burried under mounds of more questions that we answer, only to answer 20 or 30 more. If we were to have an actual debate with you, where questions are answered and answers are either proven or disproven using Scripture, we'd make more headway. But instead, all that goes on is ridicule and mockery, laughing at and spitting on Calvinism for baseless reasons.

If you want to debate the proper way, I'm sure we would be more than happy to do so. But it's high time you either play ball or get off the field. If you are going to attack something, you should at least give fair trial rather than a rigged system.

This is exactly it. No need to "debate" these types when all they do is ignore what is offered, mock, lie, ridicule, erect straw man arguments, misrepresent...

These never address any Scripture given them that shows choosing does not save anyone.

Pretty much done talking to them. All they do is talk of how they weren't robots, chose out of true love, then high five one another for denying the Gospel of Grace for a gospel based on merit.
 
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Preacher4Truth

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Yes, I know of some 2 point or 3 point Calvinists but...since I only have a problem with Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible grace, does that make me a 2 point Calvinist? Am still not cemented in OSAS.
In Him,
nancy
There's no such thing as a 2 or 3 point Calvinist. The five points of "Calvinism" are coherent and cannot be divorced from one another.
 
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Preacher4Truth

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And while you're here @Preacher4Truth there was that question I put to you that you may have missed a few days ago. You agreed with Paul that we should examine ourselves to see iif we are in the faith. Can you explainf from your perspective why we should do this?

Going to have to deny you any explanation. You've rejected so many Scriptures and posts I've offered that refute you it would be a waste of my time to do so again.

You never actually address what I've given you. Sad to say, but it is true.

Instead, you offer insults, inflammatory comments, mockery, ridicule, bear false witness, makeup what I believe, throw in a little name calling by implication, and then ask another question.

When I respond you just ignore it and all the texts given that show you to be in error. You refuse to face yourself, your teachings, the truth in light of Scripture that shows you to be in error.

You really need to take a look at that behavior of yours. Funny thing is you act like you're calling me out on the carpet while you behave exactly the way I've mentioned.

Since you want to talk about self-examination, well, you need to start with yourself and face the truth of what I've said.
 
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Preacher4Truth

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Oh, most assuredly so. We are to preach the gospel to every creature under heaven, and it is through the preaching of the word that faith comes. But I'm not talking about the gospel. It is the denigrating of others that is prevalent throughout your posts that I query. If people who do not, in your estimation, believe the gospel, what do you hope to accomplish by rebuking them and trekking them off? I mean, it is not as if they can change their mind right? If they are lost, why rub it in and call them out?
Again, you're misrepresenting me and presupposing. How? By claiming I'm saying these are lost folk. I've never said this, and this is at least the second time I've told you this, yet you carry on and don't accept correction.

Those who are lost and are opposing the Gospel are to be handled gently.

Those, like yourself, and several on here who claim to be converted who preach a false message are to be handled in a rebuking fashion. This is how Scripture gives protocol in this matter and is in accordance with the testimony of Scripture, OT and NT.

Stop preaching your false message, bearing false witness, name calling, insulting, ignoring Scripture correcting you and you'll be handled in a differing manner.
 
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marks

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So please, do not make it out like my brothers and I do not know what we are talking about, and that the problem is that we've been indoctrinated by Calvinism, or that if we would just 'open our eyes, we would see the truth.' We've all been where you are right now, and know the Arminian stance as well as the next guy. You love to talk about the 'flaws of our theology', but when we answer your questions about the flaws, they go ignored. And I think I know why. Because if we were to answer every question, and you were to genuinely read our responses instead of casually brushing them to the side, you would see that you are the true die-hard; clinging to Arminianism at any cost; even at the cost of the truth. This is the real reason my brothers have slowed down a bit debating with you. Because you don't debate. In a debate, you deal with the opponents points, and counterpoint. What happens here is half a debate. You make an accusation, and we answer with Scripture, then ask where we went wrong. But we are never answered. It is always a 'moving right along' kind of debate, where our answers are burried under mounds of more questions that we answer, only to answer 20 or 30 more. If we were to have an actual debate with you, where questions are answered and answers are either proven or disproven using Scripture, we'd make more headway. But instead, all that goes on is ridicule and mockery, laughing at and spitting on Calvinism for baseless reasons.

I keep reading this part. It's like you were reading my mind about how my attempts to debate this went.

Yeah. I slowed down too. Would that there could be a real debate.

Much love!
 
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marks

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I always enjoy the "not robots" argument, as if a person who was lost and hostile toward God chose to love God.

It is an impossibility but for God...Ephesians 2:3-4. Furthermore it is a false gospel, and has made salvation not of grace but meritorious.

Then you all pat each other on the back over it. Remarkable to behold!

Hi P4T,

This "chose to love God" argument is a Straw Man argument. I've never said I chose to love God. That's not how I've personally normally heard this side of the argument expressed, though I'm certain there are instances.

Rather we are saved by grace through faith. We believe God.

Much love!
Mark
 

marks

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Going to have to deny you any explanation. You've rejected so many Scriptures and posts I've offered that refute you it would be a waste of my time to do so again.

You never actually address what I've given you. Sad to say, but it is true.

Instead, you offer insults, inflammatory comments, mockery, ridicule, bear false witness, makeup what I believe, throw in a little name calling by implication, and then ask another question.

When I respond you just ignore it and all the texts given that show you to be in error. You refuse to face yourself, your teachings, the truth in light of Scripture that shows you to be in error.

You really need to take a look at that behavior of yours. Funny thing is you act like you're calling me out on the carpet while you behave exactly the way I've mentioned.

Since you want to talk about self-examination, well, you need to start with yourself and face the truth of what I've said.

That's a rather abrasive way to avoid answering a rather simple question, don't you think?

I'm wondering too. Why so antagonistic?

Much love!
 

Laish

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I only have a problem with Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible grace, does that make me a 2 point Calvinist? Am still not cemented in OSAS.
In Him,
Hey Nancy.
Last question first. Most will say no only that you have some leanings. Still it doesn’t mean by Reformed or Calvinist beliefs that your not saved . Even Calvin believed that some Catholics were saved . That is if their faith was directed to our Triune God .
I want to ask you something. Not as a call out just to clarify. What do you think total depravity means as Reformed folks believe it ?
Dose your idea of what Calvinist believe lineup with how Calvin describes a totally deprived man ?

John Calvin. Institutes (Book II, Chapter 3, Section 3):

In every age there have been persons who, guided by nature, have striven toward virtue throughout life. I have nothing to say against them even if many lapses can be noted in their moral conduct. For they have by the very zeal of their honesty given proof that there was some purity in their nature. . . .These examples, accordingly, seem to warn us against adjudging man’s nature wholly corrupted, because some men have by its prompting not only excelled in remarkable deeds, but conducted themselves most honorably throughout life. But here it ought to occur to us that amid this corruption of nature there is some place for God’s grace; not such grace as to cleanse it, but to restrain it inwardly.
Blessings
Bill
 
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SovereignGrace

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I always enjoy the "not robots" argument, as if a person who was lost and hostile toward God chose to love God.

It is an impossibility but for God...Ephesians 2:3-4. Furthermore it is a false gospel, and has made salvation not of grace but meritorious.

Then you all pat each other on the back over it. Remarkable to behold!
Hey, I am not a robot...a robot...a robot...beep...bonk....boop....a robot....bzzzz....woop....a robot...
 
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Enoch111

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...I only have a problem with Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible grace...
You missed Unconditional Election, which cannot be divorced from the above. And OSAS is not exactly the same as the Perseverance of the Saints. Which means you are back to square one.
 

Enoch111

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John Calvin. Institutes (Book II, Chapter 3, Section 3):

In every age there have been persons who, guided by nature, have striven toward virtue throughout life. I have nothing to say against them even if many lapses can be noted in their moral conduct. For they have by the very zeal of their honesty given proof that there was some purity in their nature. . . .These examples, accordingly, seem to warn us against adjudging man’s nature wholly corrupted, because some men have by its prompting not only excelled in remarkable deeds, but conducted themselves most honorably throughout life. But here it ought to occur to us that amid this corruption of nature there is some place for God’s grace; not such grace as to cleanse it, but to restrain it inwardly.
This tells us that Calvin would reject the idea of Total Depravity as stated in the Westminster Confession.
 
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brakelite

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God created evil for his glory. We cannot know his mercy, sovereignty, justice, righteousness etc., apart from sin.

God would not be good if he did not punish sinners. He would not be merciful if he didn't save some.
The above is typical reasoning from Calvinists that I cannot understand or agree with. God deliberately creates evil, sin, in order to show His mercy, that He may receive more glory!

Did God intentionally incite David to number Israel and then judge the nation due to this? Yes, he did; 2 Samuel 24. What did he do with the Assyrians against Israel, then to Assyria afterward? These are hard truths, yet are true and show the glory of God. There is also what he did to set up Absalom as well; 2 Samuel 17:14.

And more than that, what of his determined will to do what he did to his Son; Isaiah 53:10; Acts 2:23?

These are some of the things God has done, and is free to do, which our minds being finite struggle with. Some struggle with it because they deem God as unfair, and the reasoning behind it is they think too highly of man and self and don't think God is allowed as Judge to exercise justice at will. Well guess what everyone? He's God.

Many spend their time trying to get God "off the hook" for this, and for the fact he elects and predestines to save whom he wills. He doesn't need anyone to get him off the hook, he desires for you and all who name him as LORD to believe and trust him.
And you agreed with it...

Again, you're misrepresenting me and presupposing. How? By claiming I'm saying these are lost folk.

Not only so, but claiming I am misrepresenting you by believing you are saying people who don't accept the Calvinist gospel are unsaved, when you have said many times that we cannot "choose our way into heaven"...if we therefore have, according to you, chosen our way into heaven, then how can we be saved? You have repeatedly accused us all of being advocates for "free-will"...agreed with others that we are "word of faith misfits" all following a false gospel. Isn't that why you are here? To somehow prove we are mislead, teaching heresy, trying to earn our way into the kingdom? How else are we to understand you other than to think we are not, cannot be, saved????? Because preacher, the fact of the matter is that if anyone here were trying to gain salvation by those means, I would agree with you that they cannot be saved!!!
But all that aside, your continuing accusations and put-downs of anyone who disagrees with you on the supposition that they "have all chosen their way into heaven" is a straw-man anyway. No-one here has claimed to have chosen , without the aid, inspiration, motivation and conviction of the holy Spirit. Which means we are not claiming any glory whatsoever. So all your pompous ravings are essentially vacuous reasonings and empty discharges. You're firing blanks bro.
Going to have to deny you any explanation. You've rejected so many Scriptures and posts I've offered that refute you it would be a waste of my time to do so again.

You never actually address what I've given you. Sad to say, but it is true.

Instead, you offer insults, inflammatory comments, mockery, ridicule, bear false witness, makeup what I believe, throw in a little name calling by implication, and then ask another question.

When I respond you just ignore it and all the texts given that show you to be in error. You refuse to face yourself, your teachings, the truth in light of Scripture that shows you to be in error.

You really need to take a look at that behavior of yours. Funny thing is you act like you're calling me out on the carpet while you behave exactly the way I've mentioned.

Since you want to talk about self-examination, well, you need to start with yourself and face the truth of what I've said.
The only things you have attempted to refute are your own straw man arguments. I have already testified to what God has done in my life. My question to you was, if I had the power of choice, and left my salvation lying in the gutter, and trampled underfoot all the good that God has accomplished in my life, seeing, according to you that my salvation cannot be real because you believe
  1. That the Christ I believe in was created and
  2. Whatever changes in my life were merely outward self improvement attempts
…(and I could search back for those direct quotes if you need them, but I am sure you remember exactly what you said)….

….would I be better off doing that seeing my salvation is not real? ...According to your Calvinist teachings? ...and simply wait for God to do His thing?

Now if I am barking up the wrong tree, great! And if that be the case, then why not stop accusing us of working our way into God's good books by our own efforts and simply accept us as brothers and sisters in Christ and cease the pontificating over issues that don't exist?
 
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Laish

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This tells us that Calvin would reject the idea of Total Depravity as stated in the Westminster Confession.
Lol no because this is from a foot note the writers used for the confession it referenced Calvin’s institutes read up
Westminster confession of faith 16:
Section 7) Works done by unregenerate men, although, for the matter of them, they may be things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and others;1) yet, because they proceed not from an heart purified by faith;(2) nor are done in a right manner, according to the Word;(3) nor to a right end, the glory of God;(4) they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God.
Blessings
Bill
 
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Nancy

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Hey Nancy.
Last question first. Most will say no only that you have some leanings. Still it doesn’t mean by Reformed or Calvinist beliefs that your not saved . Even Calvin believed that some Catholics were saved . That is if their faith was directed to our Triune God .
I want to ask you something. Not as a call out just to clarify. What do you think total depravity means as Reformed folks believe it ?
Dose your idea of what Calvinist believe lineup with how Calvin describes a totally deprived man ?

John Calvin. Institutes (Book II, Chapter 3, Section 3):

In every age there have been persons who, guided by nature, have striven toward virtue throughout life. I have nothing to say against them even if many lapses can be noted in their moral conduct. For they have by the very zeal of their honesty given proof that there was some purity in their nature. . . .These examples, accordingly, seem to warn us against adjudging man’s nature wholly corrupted, because some men have by its prompting not only excelled in remarkable deeds, but conducted themselves most honorably throughout life. But here it ought to occur to us that amid this corruption of nature there is some place for God’s grace; not such grace as to cleanse it, but to restrain it inwardly.
Blessings
Bill

DEPRAVED in totality- morally corrupt, deviant, wicked...pretty much your plain dictionary definition. Spiritually speaking, born into a fallen state because of Adam and Eve's original sin.
The only difference in my own view is that, despite the fact that we were born into sin, God still chose to reveal Himself to us. He revealed himself to Cain and Abel, who were born of woman, under original sin. Yet, not so depraved as to be in ignorance of God and His ways. And, we see that Abel's heart was right before God. God even warned Cain that if he did right he would be treated well, Cain was too consumed with jealousy and anger toward his bro. So...I see God as being quite just in that He gives all people the knowledge of His presence (they are without excuse)...dead in sin or not.
 

Laish

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DEPRAVED in totality- morally corrupt, deviant, wicked...pretty much your plain dictionary definition. Spiritually speaking, born into a fallen state because of Adam and Eve's original sin.
The only difference in my own view is that, despite the fact that we were born into sin, God still chose to reveal Himself to us. He revealed himself to Cain and Abel, who were born of woman, under original sin. Yet, not so depraved as to be in ignorance of God and His ways. And, we see that Abel's heart was right before God. God even warned Cain that if he did right he would be treated well, Cain was too consumed with jealousy and anger toward his bro. So...I see God as being quite just in that He gives all people the knowledge of His presence (they are without excuse)...dead in sin or not.
Ok did you see how it was described nearly 500 years ago? I left a quote .
Blessings
Bill
 
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Nancy

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Ok did you see how it was described nearly 500 years ago? I left a quote .
Blessings
Bill

Not sure what you mean by "it" being described 500 years ago, unless you are talking about the "T" doctrine?? But still, there is little difference in how you and I look at Total Depravity....and, what quote did you leave? :)
 

Laish

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Not sure what you mean by "it" being described 500 years ago, unless you are talking about the "T" doctrine?? But still, there is little difference in how you and I look at Total Depravity....and, what quote did you leave? :)
This one from Calvin
John Calvin. Institutes (Book II, Chapter 3, Section 3):

In every age there have been persons who, guided by nature, have striven toward virtue throughout life. I have nothing to say against them even if many lapses can be noted in their moral conduct. For they have by the very zeal of their honesty given proof that there was some purity in their nature. . . .These examples, accordingly, seem to warn us against adjudging man’s nature wholly corrupted, because some men have by its prompting not only excelled in remarkable deeds, but conducted themselves most honorably throughout life. But here it ought to occur to us that amid this corruption of nature there is some place for God’s grace; not such grace as to cleanse it, but to restrain it inwardly.
That’s how it was looked upon then and by most Reformed folks now.
Blessings
Bill