The Flesh & The Spirit

[Robbie]

I was just thinking the funniest thing about this discussion is no one is intentionally doing wrong if they really believe it's right... Father forgive us all because I'm sure there's been times where everyone one of us didn't know what we were doing when we really thought we did... haha

 

[Duckybill]

How can I respond? Not one Bible verse provided.

I understand....2 Tim 4:4 can only apply.

Colossians 1:16 (NKJV)
[sup]16 [/sup]For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.

 

[Alethos]

Colossians 1:16 (NKJV)
[sup]16 [/sup]For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.

Yes and three verses later we find exactly who gave Jesus this exalted position...

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him (Jesus) should all fulness dwell;

God is the source of the fulness, and not Jesus. Phil 2:9

When God raised His Son from dead it was due to him yielding perfect obedience to his Father therefore the grave could not hold him (Acts 2:24).

But you Ducky would have God obeying God. :wacko:

While I am here can you read verse 22?

Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Christ's participation in flesh Col 1:22
And blood Col 1: 20
So as to destroy "him (devil) that "had" the power of death" Heb 2:14,15.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Yes and three verses later we find exactly who gave Jesus this exalted position...
God is the source of the fulness, and not Jesus. Phil 2:9

Contradiction, Jesus is God:

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

When God raised His Son from dead it was due to him yielding perfect obedience to his Father therefore the grave could not hold him (Acts 2:24).

Jesus raised Himself from the dead. Have you never read John 10?

John 10:17-18 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. [sup]18 [/sup]No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

But you Ducky would have God obeying God. :wacko:

Yep, God the Son submitting to God the Father. That's the way it is.

While I am here can you read verse 22?

Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Christ's participation in flesh Col 1:22
And blood Col 1: 20
So as to destroy "him (devil) that "had" the power of death" Heb 2:14,15.

Don't you remember that you have been proven wrong over and over about this? The writers of the NT and Jesus believed in Satan/ the devil. The problem is with you, not them.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

So we clearly see that Jesus believed in Satan/ the devil. Why don't you?

 

[justaname]

How can I respond? Not one Bible verse provided.

I understand....2 Tim 4:4 can only apply.


Alethos

I have posted several scriptures to which you can not respond. What you "teach' as doctrine is myth.

 

[Foreigner]

Truth misses the point entirely.
Jesus is God. He came to earth as a human, giving up his position in heaven because His Father wished it.
He has now returned to heaven and all the fullness that was His.

Please note that Jesus not correct Thomas when Thomas called Him, "My Lord and my God."

Jesus is God.

 

[Duckybill]

Jesus is God.

Absolutely! Satan hates Jesus/God. I suspect that Satan is jealous.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NKJV)
[sup]6 [/sup]For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [sup]7 [/sup]Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever.

 

[justaname]

Look at the top of page seven. You will see several scriptures.
From the KJV Philippians 2 : 6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.


E=MC2
Energy=Mass*The Speed of Light squared (from math we know we can swap across the equal sign) Spirt = Love. God's Love is proven through Jesus. Love is energy.

God is everywhere, psalms proclaim 139 : 7. Jesus never left the Father. The name Yahweh needed no justification, still not all knew he was Lord, else why did people pray to false gods. Through Jesus all will know, and proclaim. Great is the Fathers plan, and worthy is the Lamb.

The god of this world has blinded you, your ears do not hear.
Isaiah 6 : 9

Take heed Son of Adam, remove God from the foundation from whence your temple is built, and you build on sand.

I pray you receive this in love. Isaiah 7 : 14, Isaiah 5 : 16, Isaiah 5 : 21

 

[justaname]

You ask why would God justify God.
So you might see him and believe. So those who do not believe stand condemned. So God's word would be fulfilled.

From Isaiah 9 : 6 we see the son called Everlasting Father, Mighty God. We all know there is only one God and one Father.

You say yourself God lead and Jesus followed. Isaiah 45 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways...saith the Lord of hosts. Isaiah 5 : 16 But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgement, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

God did not dwell in sinful nature. Jesus' nature was/is divine, being the form, image, son of God. (overwhelming scripture providing this truth) As God extends to us 1 John 11 - 13
Jesus never sinned, but God's love is so great he bore Our sin so we may come to the Father. The flesh alone is not sin. Isaiah 6 18 "Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope." We are taught it is not that which goes into our mouths that makes us unclean, but that which comes out.

The issue you have is in swapping the words of God ie flesh for sin, mind for spirt. I warn you Revelation 22 18 - 19

You seek understanding from scripture asking why, instead of accepting truth as a child of God. You claim to have a deeper understanding of the word, yet your doctrine is riddled with holes. When words are plain you add complexity. God is not the author of confusion.

 

[Alethos]

You ask why would God justify God.
So you might see him and believe. So those who do not believe stand condemned. So God's word would be fulfilled.

From Isaiah 9 : 6 we see the son called Everlasting Father, Mighty God. We all know there is only one God and one Father.

You say yourself God lead and Jesus followed. Isaiah 45 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways...saith the Lord of hosts. Isaiah 5 : 16 But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgement, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

God did not dwell in sinful nature. Jesus' nature was/is divine, being the form, image, son of God. (overwhelming scripture providing this truth) As God extends to us 1 John 11 - 13
Jesus never sinned, but God's love is so great he bore Our sin so we may come to the Father. The flesh alone is not sin. Isaiah 6 18 "Woe unto them that draw iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope." We are taught it is not that which goes into our mouths that makes us unclean, but that which comes out.

The issue you have is in swapping the words of God ie flesh for sin, mind for spirt. I warn you Revelation 22 18 - 19

You seek understanding from scripture asking why, instead of accepting truth as a child of God. You claim to have a deeper understanding of the word, yet your doctrine is riddled with holes. When words are plain you add complexity. God is not the author of confusion.

Explain 2 Cor 5:21 Heb 2:14 Heb 4:15

Justaname, what was the enmity in Jesus flesh? Eph 2:15?

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

You deny the Word of God for man made doctrines which cannot save you.

Alethos

 

[justaname]

To start with Ephesians 1 : 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.
If he has chosen us in him since before the foundation of the world, how much less his plan in Christ, and the temple Jesus? By existing in the plan of God before time, we existed, if not the flesh, in the Spirit, only God knows.

To your question.

Ephesians 2 : 12 That at that time ye were without Chirst, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Here Paul is speaking to the Ephesians or Gentiles.
Ephesians 2 : 13 - 14
Now by the blood of Christ Gentiles and Jews are reconciled.
Ephesians 2 : 15
In Christ the enmity between Jew and Gentile is abolished, abolishing even the law contained in ordinances, making in Christ a new creation (Christian).

To continue fist let me tell you Jesus' temple was received in Heaven. I am sure you know scripture supports this, hence the empty tomb.
Jesus' life was/is sinless, death had no hold of his temple.

II Corinthians 5 : 21 For he hath made him to be sin, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Jesus (temple, sacrificial lamb) replaces our sin, freeing us from our bondage of sin and death, in return we become the righteousness of God. Jesus who did not sin, adopts our sin and in turn us, allowing us to sup with Him. Jesus was created, sent from Heaven, for us to be reconciled unto God.

Hebrews 4 : 15
Think of God in concepts. God who is Spirit cannot be contained. In all places in all times. Spirit can take many forms and concepts, but God by nature is love, unchanging, unable to be tempted. If God tires to succour man the response will be, How can YOU relate to ME?
God in Jesus Christ, humble servant, ordained son, glory of God, obedient unto death. His very nature is equal with God, but flesh and blood none the less, proven through action unwilling to fall to temptation, yet able to taste both temptation and death, sanctified in righteousness, exalted in judgement. Now there is a relation between man and God.

Hebrews 2 : 14
Jesus came also to destroy him that held the power over death.
This is the mystery revealed to Paul. In your view Satan does not exist so I must move on.

 

[Alethos]

To start with Ephesians 1 : 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.
If he has chosen us in him since before the foundation of the world, how much less his plan in Christ, and the temple Jesus? By existing in the plan of God before time, we existed, if not the flesh, in the Spirit, only God knows.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places “in” Christ:

Just in case you missed it I highlighted the relationship and hierarchy. The blessings come from God and they have been placed in and through the Son.

Anything outside of this truth is error. If you choose to twist this truth by adding something which is not presented you do so at your own peril.

Eph 1:4 According as he (God) hath chosen us “in” him (Jesus) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him (God) in love:

God (Yahweh) has chosen us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. This means that in His plan and purpose before “let their be light” God foreknew His Children, including Jesus Christ who is the firstborn Col 1:18 from the dead, that’s right justaname, I will repeat, the first-born among the “dead”. Before such time neither you, I nor Jesus Christ existed only in the Logos of Gods Mind.

This scripture speaks to the glorious position the Gentiles have been placed in through Jesus Christ. It’s also important as it states that we were always part of His plan and not just an afterthought. It demonstrates His great love and impartial view of mankind.

But nothing here speaks to Jesus being God.

You speak often of relationships but not once have I heard you speak of the Father and Son relationship, and how Jesus was totally reliant on the Father for knoweldge and wisdom and in fact everything.

If you believe Jesus is God and God can be killed? What hope have I in teaching you anything?

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

II Corinthians 5 : 21 For he hath made him to be sin, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus (temple, sacrificial lamb) replaces our sin, freeing us from our bondage of sin and death, in return we become the righteousness of God. Jesus who did not sin, adopts our sin and in turn us, allowing us to sup with Him. Jesus was created, sent from Heaven, for us to be reconciled unto God.

Where does the Bible tells us Jesus replaces our sins?
Where does the Bible tell us he adopts our sin?

You may be right? but show me a scripture to support your thoughts?

God "made" Jesus Christ to be:

"Made" him to be sin" 2 Corin 5:21 (explain how God "made" him to be sin?

"Jesus likewise took part in Flesh and Blood" Heb 2:14

"Jesus was tempted in "all" points yet without sin" Heb 4:15

Temptation comes from the flesh James 1:13-15 but you say he didnt have flesh, which could be tempted?

I ask what type of Flesh did Jesus have?

1Pe 2:24 Who his (Jesus) own self bare our sins in his (Jesus) own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

While Jesus certainly did share our sin-prone nature, and was tempted through the flesh like all of us, this is not what this above verse is telling us. I want to make that clear; Peter is saying that when Jesus was nailed to the tree, he bore in his body the marks of the sins which we committed against him, the stripes by which he later says 'we were healed'. It was we sinners who physically abused, brutally tortured and cruelly crucified Jesus.

However Justaname,

How could Jesus be a sin bearer if he ddint share our nature? Isa 53:4,5-6

The answer which you not accept now, due to the hardness of your heart, but in time, I pray it be softened to allow this beautiful lesson to sink into your ears and behold its wonder.

The victory over sin nature required the son of God to share in it...else its fraud, its the biggest hoax known to mankind, in my my view its no victory at all if Jesus did not share our flesh.

You might desire a Captian who couldnt sin? who was invincible in every way, well, I cannot change that. This makes a mockery of your temptaions and struggles in the Flesh.

Like I said, you will never come to a knowledge of the truth concerning Gods work in Christ, until you remove the trintiy far from you, until then you are under a cloud of darkness.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

God is the creator of all things, Jesus Christ included. God spoke things into being, Jesus being His very Word. God created God's son and temple. I can can think of no greater creation. Jesus was not sin ever, a suitable temple for God, ordained from inception of God who was, and is, and will be. His proof is in His Word, Jesus. By his very name are you saved and there is only one God. Check your scriptures. Jesus Christ is Lord. His name is justified, vindicated, Loved and proclaimed.

2 Cor 5:21

"Jesus was 'made sin for us'.

Some try to imply Paul means a sin – offering. However Paul means sin, but we must understand what is intended by the word “sin”. Christ was made “sin” in partaking of the nature in which sin reigns and which produces sin, and which therefore figuratively speaking is sin. We may go further and say Jesus was made 'sin' in enduring the consequences of sin, sin not his own, for he did not sin, but sin which has left its effects upon the whole race of mankind in bringing all under subjection to death.

Heb 2:15 shows why Jesus was required to be made of flesh and blood so as to overcome the devil power (sin) which caused all mankind to live in fear of death.

Put simply Jesus destroy that which reigned over him “death” through his perfect obedience and sacrifice.

You cannot fight an enemy within yourself, if it’s not there! Impossible for anyone to say the death did not reign over Jesus during his life, for he was killed and he died and was in the grave three days.

To understand this vital point we need to know God and understand how repugnant and horrible sin is in His sight. Only then can we see how the effects of sin are brought to a focal point in life, death & ressurection of Jesus Christ, where we find the very source of his victory which was “in” his own body.

Jesus in no way was of sinful character, 2 Cor 5:21 could only apply to his physical nature, which drawn from the veins of Mary, was ' made sin.' Again, in Rom. 8:3, we are informed that ' what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God (hath done) in sending forth His son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for (on account of) sin, condemned sin in the flesh '."

If you believe Jesus came in the flesh, he was under condemnation, for the nature he inherited was a condemned one. The sentence of death ran in the blood which he inherited from Adam through Mary. He was, therefore, ' in the days of his flesh', as much under its power as those he came to save.

This conclusion follows from the testimony that he was a man; The Holy Spirit has manifested him being in Flesh and Blood and it is testified that he was 'made sin for us ' (2 Cor 5:21).

Read Sin & Death

Alethos

 

[justaname]

Isaiah 45 : 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways...saith the Lord of hosts.
God is the Lord of hosts. If you do not believe me I suggest you read the entire chapter.

Isaiah 5 : 16 But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgement, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.


Who judges the Lord of hosts or God?


God that is holy shall be sanctified.
Why does a holy God need sanctification?


This is God proclaiming what Jesus, God, will undergo. Jesus is equal with God. Jesus on earth always humbled himself to the Father. Equals they are none the less. God does not need the temple Jesus, we do.
God who is holy, created Jesus who is holy. Now God that is already holy, created a holy sinless temple, and sanctified it with believers (three steps of holiness, kinda makes you think). The flesh is not sin for it is the Lord of hosts, God, that is the in temple Jesus, directing all his ways.
To echo the word, " just as you are in me, and I am in you."


Also to prove the flesh not sin Luke 2 : 23
All male offspring are called holy in accordance to God's law.
[font="tahoma][size="3"]Sinful flesh holy??????Nonsense. [/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="3"]Finally, by what you say, God can make a plan that could fail. That is a plain lie given from Satan. My Captain is God not Satan. My head is Christ, and Christ's head is God.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"]I fear Satan has invaded your temple and you are following his lead not His. I pray for you.[/size][/font]
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[justaname]

As far as God's death.<br>Temples come and temples go.&nbsp;&nbsp;Both righteous and unrighteous will be raised in time.&nbsp;&nbsp;Do I even need to post verses to support this?<br><br>What you call Jesus (temple) is nothing more than a shell.&nbsp;&nbsp;We all know God is everlasting, and those who believe in Jesus, share as children.&nbsp;&nbsp;We are more than mere temples, and so is Jesus. &nbsp;The temple Jesus houses the Mighty God. &nbsp;This concept has been proven many times over.<br>Jesus didn't completely die, else there would be nothing to even talk about.&nbsp;&nbsp;His temple is raised, justified, sanctified, and proven Holy God unto Satan and all his powers and principalities.&nbsp;&nbsp;His words are "<b>I </b>will raise this temple in 3 days"&nbsp;&nbsp;He is doing the raising.&nbsp;&nbsp;He who is connected to the Father from the beginning, and ye even before.<br>I know Jesus to be greater than you accept, for when I look unto the Everlasting Father, I see more than flesh and bone.

<div><br></div><div>Would you have another rebellion in Heaven? &nbsp;What you loose here on earth so you also loose in Heaven. &nbsp;How can you share in the throne of the Father less you know there is one God, one temple to which all knees will bow, all tongues will confess God Almighty. &nbsp; Why else do you think by grace and not works, so no man can boast. &nbsp;Jesus even said there will be those who do things greater than I (speaking of temple), yet all things are done through Christ Jesus spoken by the apostles.</div><div><br></div><div>If Jesus bore our nature he would have sinned, for every man falls short the glory of God. Again do I need verses here? &nbsp;Every man, except the one proclaimed God.</div><div><br></div><div>Jesus bare our sins on the tree. &nbsp;He was sinless until that point. &nbsp;There he accepted or adopted our sin, and accepted the just punishment already established, death.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Hmmmm, I thought I would return to this discussion sooner. I also thought I had some more to add. My thought's have been on this all week.

Admittedly I'm a little frustrated and have remembered all the other discussions I've had with JW's on many Saturday mornings.

This conversation is very complicated (although, it shouldn't be) by the fact of people using different manuscripts. Each one believing that theirs is the correct. Personally I try to stick with the KJV. Supossedly the KJV has been considered as close as you can get to the original manuscripts. This includes what might be lost in conversation due to translations.

As certain words which seem very small make huge points and change entire meanings of an entire paragraph.

I will think some more on this and try to compile a decent amount of scritpure to support my beliefs. The folks here are doing a fine job.

The biggest problem I can see is denying that Jesus is God, and claiming that Jesus could sin. This raises many more questions and seems so out of character for who we understand Jesus to be and who we understand God to be. These ideas overwhelmingly complicate explaination and understandings.

If Jesus is not God, how can we reconcile worshiping Him? God doesn't want anyone worshiping anyone but Him. If Jesus could sin, what made him special above all others? If Jesus could sin then we all have the potential on our own to not sin ever. So, why would Jesus be the one chosen?

If the idea of a trinity is wrong, how do you explain Father, Son and Holy Spirit? As I understand they're the same "person" just 3 different parts. And, to top it all of it's the only 3 parts of God that are revealed to us. I remember Revelation mentioning the 7 spirits of God.

 

[justaname]

As far as God's death.
Temples come and temples go. Both righteous and unrighteous will be raised in time. Do I even need to post verses to support this?

What you call Jesus (temple) is nothing more than a shell. We all know God is everlasting, and those who believe in Jesus, share as children. We are more than mere temples, and so is Jesus. The temple Jesus houses the Mighty God. This concept has been proven many times over.
Jesus didn't completely die, else there would be nothing to even talk about. His temple is raised, justified, sanctified, and proven Holy God unto Satan and all his powers and principalities. His words are "I will raise this temple in 3 days" He is doing the raising. He who is connected to the Father from the beginning, and ye even before.
I know Jesus to be greater than you accept, for when I look unto the Everlasting Father, I see more than flesh and bone.

Would you have another rebellion in Heaven? What you loose here on earth so you also loose in Heaven. How can you share in the throne of the Father less you know there is one God, one temple to which all knees will bow, all tongues will confess God Almighty. Why else do you think by grace and not works, so no man can boast. Jesus even said there will be those who do things greater than I (speaking of temple), yet all things are done through Christ Jesus spoken by the apostles.

If Jesus bore our nature he would have sinned, for every man falls short the glory of God. Again do I need verses here? Every man, except the one proclaimed God.

Jesus bare our sins on the tree. He was sinless until that point. There he accepted or adopted our sin, and accepted the just punishment already established, death.

 

[Alethos]

The biggest problem I can see is denying that Jesus is God, and claiming that Jesus could sin. This raises many more questions and seems so out of character for who we understand Jesus to be and who we understand God to be. These ideas overwhelmingly complicate explaination and understandings.

You need to come to terms that Jesus Flesh was the same Flesh that you and I have today.

If you don’t believe Jesus came under the same condemnation as you and I then his victory was over what?

What did Jesus conquer?
What battle did he fight in the Flesh?
How did become your Captain?

If you make Jesus God you reduce the atoning work and make a mockery of Jesus sufferings.

If he couldn’t sin, then he couldn’t be tempted to sin, if he couldn’t be tempted then the Word of God is a lie and he wasn’t tempted as we are.

The doctrine of the trinity removes all possibility of Jesus overcoming in the Flesh. And if this be so Whiteknuckle how can Jesus say in Rev 3:21 if he himself didn’t fight the good fight as Paul state.

This would be hypocrisy in its highest form.

Thankfully I myself have a high priest who knows the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.

If Jesus is not God, how can we reconcile worshiping Him? God doesn't want anyone worshiping anyone but Him. If Jesus could sin, what made him special above all others?

He was only man to ever overcome temptation, sin & death.

And you dont believe thats special?

Its on this basis Jesus was vindicated "through" the Spirit and given a name above every name? Do you believe he aways had that name! How can you be given sometihng you already had? And on what basis was the name granted?

If Jesus could sin then we all have the potential on our own to not sin ever. So, why would Jesus be the one chosen?

If the idea of a trinity is wrong, how do you explain Father, Son and Holy Spirit? As I understand they're the same "person" just 3 different parts. And, to top it all of it's the only 3 parts of God that are revealed to us. I remember Revelation mentioning the 7 spirits of God.

Whiteknuckle,

I appreciate the tone of your above thoughts. At the very least you display a mind which is open and inquisative.

In time I will open up a discussion on the Deity as present by the Holy Writ. For now I need many to understand the work of the Father in the Son.

Alethos

As far as God's death.
Temples come and temples go. Both righteous and unrighteous will be raised in time. Do I even need to post verses to support this?

What you call Jesus (temple) is nothing more than a shell. We all know God is everlasting, and those who believe in Jesus, share as children. We are more than mere temples, and so is Jesus. The temple Jesus houses the Mighty God. This concept has been proven many times over.
Jesus didn't completely die, else there would be nothing to even talk about. His temple is raised, justified, sanctified, and proven Holy God unto Satan and all his powers and principalities. His words are "I will raise this temple in 3 days" He is doing the raising. He who is connected to the Father from the beginning, and ye even before.
I know Jesus to be greater than you accept, for when I look unto the Everlasting Father, I see more than flesh and bone.

Would you have another rebellion in Heaven? What you loose here on earth so you also loose in Heaven. How can you share in the throne of the Father less you know there is one God, one temple to which all knees will bow, all tongues will confess God Almighty. Why else do you think by grace and not works, so no man can boast. Jesus even said there will be those who do things greater than I (speaking of temple), yet all things are done through Christ Jesus spoken by the apostles.

If Jesus bore our nature he would have sinned, for every man falls short the glory of God. Again do I need verses here? Every man, except the one proclaimed God.

Jesus bare our sins on the tree. He was sinless until that point. There he accepted or adopted our sin, and accepted the just punishment already established, death.

If you dont ask the right questions of the Fathers Word, you will not be revealed the answers.

What did Jesus overcome?
How did he overcome?
As a result of his overcoming what did His Father given him?

Provide verse if you like I have nothing to hide nor does the Word of God.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

2 Cor 5:21

"Jesus was 'made sin for us'.

Some try to imply Paul means a sin – offering.

That's exactly what Paul meant, a sin offering, a sacrifice. That's why Jesus is called the Lamb.

John 1:29 (NKJV)
[sup]29 [/sup]The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 10:12-14 (NKJV)
[sup]12 [/sup]But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, [sup]13 [/sup]from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. [sup]14 [/sup]For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

If you don’t believe Jesus came under the same condemnation as you and I then his victory was over what?

Is anyone else seeing what this guy is saying???