The Flesh & The Spirit

[justaname]

[font="tahoma][size="2"]St. John 10 37-38
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma] [/font][/color]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][size="2"] "But from the hereditary effects of sin in his nature;"[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]Jesus being the Word, form, image of God held God's nature. He did not/was not sin until he adopted it and in turn us into His kingdom.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"] [/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]The Father is in Him, and He in the Father, as we are in them, which together we are one. This is why we share in the glory of the Father. This is the demise of powers and principalities. Do not subject yourself to your Satan any longer. See the glory which is in the Son and glorify Him, for by the same shall you be glorified, and share in the glory which is God's.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"] [/size][/font]

 

[Alethos]

[font="tahoma][size="2"]St. John 10 37-38
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][/font][/color]
[color="#5d5d5d"][font="tahoma][size="2"]"But from the hereditary effects of sin in his nature;"[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]Jesus being the Word, form, image of God held God's nature. He did not/was not sin until he adopted it and in turn us into His kingdom.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"][/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]The Father is in Him, and He in the Father, as we are in them, which together we are one. This is why we share in the glory of the Father. This is the demise of powers and principalities. Do not subject yourself to your Satan any longer. See the glory which is in the Son and glorify Him, for by the same shall you be glorified, and share in the glory which is God's.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="2"][/size][/font]

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Rom 8:3

While you both play with words the "Word" places your noun and verb in the Flesh.

you might think!

By the way Flesh can be a noun and verb also...but lets not go there.

You should also no that God Himself cannot dwell in something which is sin 2 Cor 5:21 James 1:13,14,15 Heb 2:14,15 HEb 4:15 Gal 4:4 and so on...

Alethos

 

[justaname]

I would have to say the key word here is "likeness".&nbsp;&nbsp;It in my humble opinion is the same type of flesh and blood as you and I have, without sin.<br>Please reconcile the end of verse 38 from my post.

<div><br></div><div>Also I would like to restate Jesus is the one raising the temple on the third day, even though he prayed to the Father. &nbsp;St John 2 : 19</div><div><br></div><div>How can a dead body raise itself up, unless it is the Spirit that is doing the raising? &nbsp;Why did Jesus not say my Father will raise it in three days?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

 

[justaname]

I would have to say the key word here is "likeness". It in my humble opinion is the same type of flesh and blood as you and I have, without sin.
Please reconcile the end of verse 38 from my post.

Also I would like to restate Jesus is the one raising the temple on the third day, even though he prayed to the Father. St John 2 : 19

How can a dead body raise itself up, unless it is the Spirit that is doing the raising? Why did Jesus not say my Father will raise it in three days?

 

[Alethos]

I would have to say the key word here is "likeness". It in my humble opinion is the same type of flesh and blood as you and I have, without sin.

Agreed

However, how does God view Jesus flesh? even though he did no sin all his days!

2 Cor 5:21

What is Yahweh's assessment of flesh in its mortal state?

Alethos

I will post shortly on verse 38

 

[Alethos]

[font="tahoma][size="2"]John 10:37-38
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][/font][/color]
[/quote]

[color="#000000"]Maybe you should have quoted the verse which qualifies verse John 10:37,38

"Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? John 10:36

"do you say of him (Jesus) whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? ESV

I am the son of God: So even “here” Christ does not assume the title of "God". You may be surprised he never does.

set apart... and sent into the world: As believers are sanctified (John 17:17,19), and sent into the world (Mark 16:15).

Jesus Prayer in John 17 should be read carefully:

That they (us) all may be one; as thou, Father, art “in” me, and I “in” thee, that they also may be one “in” us: that the world may believe that thou (God) hast sent me (Jesus).

And the glory which thou (God) gavest me (Jesus) I (Jesus) have given them (us) ; that they (us) may be one, even as we are one:

Are you also saying that you and I will one day be God?

Read it again!

Jesus was given glory; if you are given something it means you didnt have it before hand!

God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, “in” is the operative word.

If you apply your understanding from the above language it is clear this is speaking about God manifestation. God making Himself known through a multitude (as His name teaches) as below:

1. His Son (Jesus)

2. His Angels (Gabriel, Michael etc)

3. His Children (you and I)

If you believe Jesus is God from John 10:37,38 you must also believe that YOU are God also from John 17:21,22!

“that they also may be one “in” us (God & Jesus):

Gods thinking and actions were in Christ fully, but here Jesus prays that one day that same oneness in mind & purpose may also be made complete in us (when sinful flesh is removed).

This pray and understanding of Jesus and the Father should cause us to love them eternally; This prayer is one of a husband to his bride that he wants to make spiritually rich as himself, he will not take the glory & grave given to him by his Father and not share it with us. His desire for his wife is to make her joint heirs with himself, so that you and I might share equal possessions.

Such is the great love of Jesus Christ toward his Bride.

Alethos

 

[justaname]

2 Corinthians 5 - 21 (KJV)
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Huge verse. Notice "to be" as it is written in my KJV. It totally breaks the verse at this point and I feel very exactly for as we continue to read "sin for us, who knew no sin" It does not say sin to the Father. In the Father's eye Jesus is not sin but reconciliation between his creation (man) and Him. We need the blood to be in the presence of the Father. Jesus is the blood. This point is covered in verse 18.

Now to verse 19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Again the scripture are overwhelming. God was in Christ. Jesus did no work of his own but the work of the Father through the Father.

 

[Alethos]

2 Corinthians 5 - 21 (KJV)
For he hath made (Flesh) him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who "knew" (mind) no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Huge verse. Notice "to be" as it is written in my KJV. It totally breaks the verse at this point and I feel very exactly for as we continue to read "sin for us, who knew no sin" It does not say sin to the Father. In the Father's eye Jesus is not sin but reconciliation between his creation (man) and Him. We need the blood to be in the presence of the Father. Jesus is the blood. This point is covered in verse 18.

Now to verse 19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Again the scripture are overwhelming. God was in Christ (True). Jesus did no work of his own (True) but the work of the Father through the Father (FALSE should place Jesus "God was in Christ" dont move away from the text!).

I added red text

 

[justaname]

I can say through the Father as the Son.

As it was I see your point.

 

[Alethos]

I can say through the Father as the Son.

As it was I see your point.

The Son "represented" the Father in all things, but everywhere written in the Word the Son is "always" subject to God in all things, both in Heaven and on Earth.

You can say God was "in" Christ; God worked "through" Christ; BUT never God "being" or "is" Christ nor vice visa.

We must learn to read with care, the Spirit has framed the text to convey a true meaning and it is for us to work out, and be revealed their meaning.

Alethos

 

[justaname]

I am expressively not God. But God is in me. If I live by the Spirit it is God that is the director of the temple, and I bear witness, to give testimony to God's glory and not my own.

Now we have Jesus on earth. Hebrews 2 - 7
Jesus today. Hebrews 1 - 4
Jesus at his final return. Revelations 22 13 - 16

 

[Alethos]

Justaname

An old sparring partner here in the forum likes to randomly put up quotes that appear to say one thing but actually mean another. Here is one such example which I don’t mind looking at now we have formed a foundation to work from.

[sup]28[/sup] Thomas said to him (Jesus), “My Lord and my God!” John 20:28

The question is why would Thomas refer to Jesus in such away?

Alethos

 

[justaname]

The Son is one with the Spirit making him equal with God. The Son will never have to reflect and think what would the Spirit do, he will always act in accordance to their ways. The flesh (temple) is not spirit, but skin, blood, and bone. The flesh always subjects itself to the Spirt through Jesus. Jesus being the very Word of God created all things, and all things were created for him. God and his Word are intertwined.
Now I would say that I am not the Word of God. But a minister of the Word. Thereby I am subject to Jesus.

Genesis 1 - 26
And God said , Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ...
There is only one God, there is no other God beside him.

 

[Alethos]

Genesis 1 - 26
And God said , Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ...
There is only one God, there is no other God beside him.

Ok, who do you believe the "us" is referring to in Gen 1:26?

 

[Duckybill]

Answer is No!

Good.

 

[[email protected]]

Well stated, I stand corrected

Sin, being an action or act against God, still is not physical. There may be a physical manifestation in God's presence but I am only speculating. Here on earth sin is not something we can touch and that is the case I attempting to prove. I am good at looking up Bible verses just not Webster's LOL

I think the problem is the limitations of the English language. I'm not a scholar of Hebrew or Greek. Such persons often come up with clear explanations for words and meanings that escape the rest of us.

That "sin is not something we can touch" is probably as close as we're going to get here.

I use many sources other than scripture quotations. They are useful in embellishing an assertion and illustrating a point.

I am arguing on another site with a bunch of atheists and have arrived at the conclusion that truth and testimony are not sufficient to persuade.
They are not interested in the truth, only the suppression of it.

As for your point about sin, it is well taken. Webster or no Webster.

 

[justaname]

Well we know God and His Word were there. Anything else would be pure speculation. Unless you know of scripture that proves different.
St. John 1 - 1

 

[lawrance]

I think the problem is the limitations of the English language. I'm not a scholar of Hebrew or Greek. Such persons often come up with clear explanations for words and meanings that escape the rest of us.

That "sin is not something we can touch" is probably as close as we're going to get here.

I use many sources other than scripture quotations. They are useful in embellishing an assertion and illustrating a point.

I am arguing on another site with a bunch of atheists and have arrived at the conclusion that truth and testimony are not sufficient to persuade.
They are not interested in the truth, only the suppression of it.

As for your point about sin, it is well taken. Webster or no Webster.

rjp. i also get the same on other web sites it's amazing how many people reject truth.
I have found they just do not want to know about it, because it is to much for them to be able to work out in there own mind.
But they will accept idolatry full on.
The problem is they are mainly to shallow and only really think of there self.
Others is just a concept to them.
So how can they grow as they have not come out of there shell ?
I had a hard time talking to people like this. and i just miss there point of view, it was they did not care at all.
They only idolise concepts like communism, capitalism, socialism for what they think they can get out of it and so what is the point of Christianity when you are worldly?
If someone is only self oriented there is no point wasting your time talking about it with them.

I think they try to suppress it, because they have their own god or gods and some don't even know that they are bowing down to this god they have, as they don't comprehend they are under it's influence, like some greed driven fool desperate to make his way with his own ego.

 

[justaname]

I think the problem is the limitations of the English language. I'm not a scholar of Hebrew or Greek. Such persons often come up with clear explanations for words and meanings that escape the rest of us.

That "sin is not something we can touch" is probably as close as we're going to get here.

I use many sources other than scripture quotations. They are useful in embellishing an assertion and illustrating a point.

I am arguing on another site with a bunch of atheists and have arrived at the conclusion that truth and testimony are not sufficient to persuade.
They are not interested in the truth, only the suppression of it.

As for your point about sin, it is well taken. Webster or no Webster.

The suppression of truth is their object, it continues these nations instead of God's Kingdom. It is their opinion to be God rather than to hear of Him. They hide behind the guise of "there is no God". Some truly believe God does not exist, and thirst for truth. They want to be great leaders instead of great followers.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I've thought about this alot. I've researched and thought of what I was going to say. There's so many scriptures and books upon books have written about it from both sides. I even checked out a Muslim forum. It's odd they use the same argument about Jesus being God.

I thought that I would write some sort of thesis with scriptures and studies and provide references and such.

The many who have argued against the point that Jesus is not God, and that Jesus could've sinned, have done a great job. There's not much more I can add to this conversation.

I will leave this conversation with the following as my final statement.

At one time, I thought that Jesus could've sinned. I thought that was the point of His temptation and His prayer to God to stop His death. Someone on the radio of all places explained that if Jesus is God, there was no chance for Him to sin because God can't sin. That was easy for me to accept because I knew Jesus was God. I was surprised that I never made any different connections.

As a human we all know we have several different parts. We know we have a brain that controls the rest of the body and that the body does what the brain says. We also know that the rest of the body communicates with the brain and the brain acts accordingly to keep the whole thing running smooth. It's a mystery to us how exactly this works although we can explain things by way of chemicals and neurons that process them along with the nervous system and the vast aray of capilaries. We know this and accept this. Not one of us asks if one part of our body is truely our body. Lose a finger and you'll quickly understand that your are not complete anymore. You're missing something that you needed and used everyday. You're very well aware that a finger is your body.

As a Human we understand and accept that we have a mind, a body, and a soul. Each seperate, yet each part of one or the other. Scientists often debate over the mind as being a series of chemical and nervous reactions that creat thought or the mind being a seperate entity from the brain that requires no chemicals or nervous system to act. We also as believers accept that we have a soul that is seperate from our body, yet somehow contained within as a very real part of us.

All of these are easily accepted by even those who don't believe God has different manifestations of Himself. That's interesting. God has revealed 3 seperate manifestations of Himself to us. God the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

People that don't believe Jesus is God often site presidence that Jesus prayed to God, and called God His Father. But, those same often times read scriptures that says the "Holy Sprit intercedes for us with groans......." That's accepted and rarely subjected to such scrutiny as the diety of Jesus Christ. We also accept that the Spirit of God can be in millions of people at the same time in millions of different places. No scrutiny there.

At one time I was trying to understand some of the deeper mysteries of God such as this one. I asked God and the reply was simply, "You don't have to understand all of this. Let me worry about it." I then felt a sense of relief! And, I haven't concerned myself to much depth any of these things. God says they are and I take it and run with it. I don't need to understand that God's Spirit communicates with Him, so why wouldn't the fleshly manifestation of God communicate with Him and vice versa? These are mysteries of an all knowing all powerful imortal creator.

We have yet to fully understand the mysteries that are God's written word and come to a whole hearted agreement, what are we really trying to do when we try to explain or understand the deeper charictaristics of God's physical manifestations?

However, it is important on many levels to understand who Jesus was/is. Once accepted that the "HOW'S" are simply a mystery we can move from that point.

The one scripture I'm going to leave, (in which there may be man more) is the one that I believe speaks more powerfully, clearly and with no misunderstandings is

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.