The fruits of OSAS and fruits its Opponent theolgy

[StanJ]

So if you find a verse that contradicts another verse (or as i say, trumps it), there is a problem in your thinking, not the bible. I speak that not to you, but for us all.

I absolutely agree with you, God's word does not contradict itself and you cannot use one verse to countermand another verse, so the bottom line is if you use one verse that is contradicted by another verse then your understanding was wrong and you need to amend your understanding so that both verses work.

 

[Phoneman777]

Refresh my memory... Where in mat 18 or mat 24 is it referring to saints? Where does it say the parties spoken of were saints and are calked ex saints?

It seems to me you are looking to find such an example to trump or make void 1 john 2:19.

Gods Word does not cancel out Gods word. It has ammended it, but it doesn't trump it.

So if you find a verse that contradicts another verse (or as i say, trumps it), there is a problem in your thinking, not the bible. I speak that not to you, but for us all.

OK, here it is: Matthew 24:12 KJV says "Because iniquity shall abound, the "agape" of many shall grow cold..."

The "many" are ex-saints b/c the agape which once characterized them as saints is now cold, dead, imperfect agape, and they are no longer counted among the saints who are Biblically defined as having perfected agape for God and men.

 

[FHII]

OK, here it is: Matthew 24:12 KJV says "Because iniquity shall abound, the "agape" of many shall grow cold..."

The "many" are ex-saints b/c the agape which once characterized them as saints is now cold, dead, imperfect agape, and they are no longer counted among the saints who are Biblically defined as having perfected agape for God and men.

Ok, I see where you are attempting to go. But i don't see validation for "many" being saints or ex saints. In fact the next verse says BUT THOSE that endure shall be saved. So the saints aren't apart of that many.

Mat 22:14 says many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Zachary]

I don't see validation for "many" being saints or ex saints.
In fact the next verse says BUT THOSE that endure shall be saved.
So the saints aren't apart of that many.
Mat 22:14 says many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 24:12 KJV "Because iniquity shall abound, the "agape" of many shall grow cold..."
This is referring to believers.
Horrible persecution will cause many believers to do many horrible things.
Also, many will take the mark of the beast ... and lose their salvation because of it.
Won't be fun watching your family die of starvation because y'all refused to take the mark.

IMO, in Matt 22:14 Jesus is claiming that many who were called to salvation
do not end up being chosen to actually receive it.
The NT teaches us that several things are involved in finally being chosen, such as:
believers must endure in the faith until the end of life to receive eternal life.
This is why we say that salvation is a process (not a one-time event).
Care to see all the verses again?

 

[StanJ]

1 Tim 1:6
Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk.

1 Tim 6:21
which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith. Grace be with you all.

Now where exactly is a OSAS in these two verses?

 

[justaname]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. - 1 John 2:19

This explains all apostasy.

I find it interesting those who claim you can lose your salvation, base it on nothing but their own belief these ever had salvation to begin with. Only God knows the heart of an individual, yet some claim to have knowledge equal to God. I know liars that are so habitual they believe their own lies.

I love this passage in 1 Timothy:

The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. - 1 Timothy 1:5

It seems some do not have a "sincere faith". Just something to think about...

 

[StanJ]

Matthew 24:12 KJV "Because iniquity shall abound, the "agape" of many shall grow cold..."
This is referring to believers.
Horrible persecution will cause many believers to do many horrible things.
Also, many will take the mark of the beast ... and lose their salvation because of it.
Won't be fun watching your family die of starvation because y'all refused to take the mark.

IMO, in Matt 22:14 Jesus is claiming that many who were called to salvation
do not end up being chosen to actually receive it.
The NT teaches us that several things are involved in finally being chosen, such as:
believers must endure in the faith until the end of life to receive eternal life.
This is why we say that salvation is a process (not a one-time event).
Care to see all the verses again?

The New Testament does not teach that anybody is chosen for salvation. The New Testament teaches that people choose salvation.

 

[StanJ]

Romans 11
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

The onus in the New Testament is always on the believer to continue believing. Apostasy results when people no longer believe. Apostasy is never a matter of never having believed, it is a matter of having believed and falling away.
Jesus commands us to 'endure', and that is not done apart from our will. Rev 3:10
The only security in Jesus, is continual obedience until the day we die. Hebrew 3:18

 

[mjrhealth]

The New Testament does not teach that anybody is chosen for salvation. The New Testament teaches that people choose salvation.

1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

God has alaways kept a remnant to Hinself, just like Noah, those whom He knew would remain faithfull.
God still calls even today, but men have become carnal and no longer follow after Him.

 

[justaname]

1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

God has alaways kept a remnant to Hinself, just like Noah, those whom He knew would remain faithfull.
God still calls even today, but men have become carnal and no longer follow after Him.

I agree here yet man has been carnal since the fall in the garden. The flood verifies this.

Yet those who are chosen do and will remain faithful, just like Noah. It is by God's strength and sovereign choice that they remain because God elects His own. It is also by and through their continual submission to God, their faith, that they abide. Many like to argue that it is either or, just because they like to argue or perhaps they are exercising their supposed great intellect, but they are wrong because it is both. The point I emphasize is God's strength and choice. Abiding is never accomplished through our strength, or our good decisions, or our will. No it is through our submission to God's strength, decisions, and will. This really sums up all the warnings in the Bible.

Judas was chosen as the son of perdition, the remaining eleven were chosen as apostles. Peter who denied Jesus three times submitted back onto God. This is because Jesus interceded on his behalf when Satan wanted to sift him like wheat. Had Peter been left to his own strength, God knows what would have happened to him.

We as humanity are all called to repent and believe Jesus is the Christ. Those who do are chosen by God to do so all to the glory and honor of His great name. It is through their submission to God, not their fortitude in their own ability to remain.

I will never abide if I place my faith in my fortitude, only if my faith is in Christ and what He has done.

 

[Zachary]

The New Testament does not teach that anybody is chosen for salvation.
The New Testament teaches that people choose salvation.

I've come across several NT verses LATELY about God choosing who will believe.
Please read those words carefully!

Unbelievable ... you've blown my mind again!

I'd be happy to send you an NT @ my expense.

 

[Zachary]

The onus in the New Testament is always on the believer to continue believing.
Apostasy results when people no longer believe.
Apostasy is never a matter of never having believed, it is a matter of having believed and falling away.
Jesus commands us to 'endure', and that is not done apart from our will. Rev 3:10
The only security in Jesus, is continual obedience until the day we die. Hebrew 3:18

Cannot God foist choose who will believe, and then continue on with your words of truth above?

Apostasy results when people no longer believe ... or fall into disobedience, etc.
But yes, IMO, true saving "belief" is to NOT fall away for any reason whatsoever.

 

[Zachary]

God has alaways kept a remnant to Hinself, just like Noah, those whom He knew would remain faithfull.

Yes, this faithful enduring remnant are none other than God's elect.
And no one knows who these special ones are, except the Lord Himself.
E.G. the tares who are IN the kingdom of God/heaven
will be separated out, taken out, and burned.
No one gets raptured out HERE ... the tares get taken out and disposed of.

 

[Zachary]

Yet those who are chosen do and will remain faithful, just like Noah.
It is by God's strength and sovereign choice that they remain because God elects His own.
It is also by and through their continual submission to God, their faith, that they abide.
... it is both.

Of course, it is both ... the Holy Spirit does everything possible
to KEEP believers faithful and enduring!

However, their free will is honored ... it is not compromised.
It is always a free-will choice to remain faithful and enduring unto eternal life
... yes, salvation is a life-long process!

 

[StanJ]

I've come across several NT verses LATELY about God choosing who will believe.
Please read those words carefully!

Then show them IN context and exegete them properly.

 

[StanJ]

Cannot God foist choose who will believe, and then continue on with your words of truth above?
Apostasy results when people no longer believe ... or fall into disobedience, etc.
But yes, IMO, true saving "belief" is to NOT fall away for any reason whatsoever.

Not if that precedent is not set in the word of God.

Where exactly do you see this 'true saving belief' you talk about?

 

[StanJ]

The following link will take awhile to read but it's well worth the effort. It's one of the most balanced articles I've ever read on 'free will'

http://rzim.org/just-thinking/a-willful-walk

 

[Zachary]

Where exactly do you see this 'true saving belief' you talk about?

We has the Holy Spirit within ... for a poipose!
One poipose is to reveal spiritual Truth out of the Scriptures!
What?
Yes, not everything in Scripture is crystal clear for everyone to read and understand.
Unbelievers, for example.
Think the Muslims understand what's taught in the NT?

Some spiritual Truths come from reading between the lines,
as per revelation via the precious Holy Spirit.

Like, what is this all about?
1 John:
2 By this you know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.

I'll give you a hint ... It was Christian code-language back when.

 

[StanJ]

We has the Holy Spirit within ... for a poipose!
One poipose is to reveal spiritual Truth out of the Scriptures!
What?
Yes, not everything in Scripture is crystal clear for everyone to read and understand.
Unbelievers, for example.
Think the Muslims understand what's taught in the NT?
Some spiritual Truths come from reading between the lines,
as per revelation via the precious Holy Spirit.
Like, what is this all about?
1 John:
2 By this you know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.
I'll give you a hint ... It was Christian code-language back when.

So you just made it up then.

It is the vernacular of RT but I was wanting to see if you actually admitted that which I guess you have. What is weird is that you don't seem to support OSAS, but you use a lot of RT vernacular.

What John 14 actually says is;
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach YOU all things and will remind YOU of everything I have said to YOU.

As usual you fail to understand the context and the meaning of what Jesus said here. The Bible / Canon of scripture that we currently use has all that teaching in it and will not say anything to contradict the Holy Spirit nor will the Holy Spirit teaches anything that contradicts the word of God.

 

[mjrhealth]

nor will the Holy Spirit teaches anything that contradicts the word of God

yes the Holy Spirit cannnot conrtadict Christ for Jesus is the Word Of God, even the bible declares that, but He doesnt have to agree with teh bible, the bible is supposed to agrre with God, not the othe rway round. and for those who missed it

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I would still ike to know how those who believe God has nothing to say can be taught by teh Holy Spirit since, He can only speak what He has being told???

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.