The fruits of OSAS and fruits its Opponent theolgy

[r4hnsn]

This is not intended as a mud slinging, point at the log in the others eye discussion/debate.

The premise set here is that right theology proves itself by its fruit.

Does belief in unshakeable eternal security from new birth till death produce good fruit, ie repentance from sin and faith towards God and concern for souls.

And does belief in the danger of losing salvation produce insecurity and neurosis and carnal fear of God?

What is your experience been in your church? Please don`t comment on someone else`s church, or a church not actively involved for reasonable time.

I have not been in a TULIP believing church, so can only say that in my experience (Pentecostal) most seem to have security in Gods love, but not nesessarily thorough repentance from sins. Mostly there is strong emphasis of evangelism and love towards the lost.

Lets be honest with ourselves here.

 

[StanJ]

In order to have a fruitful or productive dialogue one has to frame the issue properly which is not done in this OP. You will get the same responses that are continually being given in this regard which you can find on other threads.

There are two things to Bible does not teach and that is eternal security and losing salvation.

 

[Angelina]

Like most theologies, I think it is an individual belief system rather than a whole church thing ie: The Pre trib, mid trib, no trib Rapture, replacement theology, Preterism etc. Although they seem to collect together in one place. I have met Christians who do not believe that the gifts are for today, among those who exercise them. JMO

 

[Dan57]

A believer is saved as long as they believe, but anyone can turn their backs on God and fall away, in which case they aren't saved. As Paul said towards his end; "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith" (2 Timothy 4:7). OSAS is conditional and dependent on us keeping the faith till our end, the bible has many warnings for those who fail to do that. A person must believe and keep on believing, otherwise they don't finish the race.. I personally know once professed Christians who don't believe anymore. That's a very real danger, when his Truth no longer resides with us, we aren't saved, we're lost...jmo

 

[Wormwood]

There are devoted, God-loving and God-fearing Christians amongst Calvinists and non-Calvinists. This is not an issue of salvation so I dont think it is appropriate to say that the correct group should produce fruit while those in error will not. If that were the case, none of us would produce fruit as we are all certainly limited in our understanding and in error on many things. Correct doctrine on debatable matters is not a guarantee of Christ-likeness. A person can be theologically correct but also be void of kindness and love.

 

[Angelina]

so true... :huh: bless ya!

 

[Phoneman777]

My position is that, among many other proofs, OSAS is disproved by the parable of the Unmerciful Servant.

That said, why should my salvation that is fully predicated on whether I abide in the Vine or not drive me to anxiety? True conversion awakens the desire to serve righteousness and resist temptation. False security demands the constant defense of sinful behavior because it focuses on the frailty of human weakness, rather than the strength of the indwelling Jesus. Any man who reclines to bench press a weight bar is fully confident that he will complete all his reps before he even begins, because his spotter is standing directly behind him ready to help, yet OSAS fiercely declines the help of our Heavenly Spotter and then proceeds to make excuses for why it cannot escape the weight of sin under which it becomes trapped. Confidence in Jesus' ability to give us victory over sin before temptation even arrives is the only confidence available to us - belief that God's justice is crippled by His mercy is as useless as ropes of sand.

 

[mjrhealth]

That said, why should my salvation that is fully predicated on whether I abide in the Vine or not drive me to anxiety? True conversion awakens the desire to serve righteousness and resist temptation

True no arguement there.

False security demands the constant defense of sinful behavior because it focuses on the frailty of human weakness, rather than the strength of the indwelling Jesus.

Hoiw can one be falsely secure in Christ, either one is secure in Christ or is not, either one is saved or one is not,

and yet no where in the bible does it declare one wil ever be free of sin, what is says is one will no longer be condemend, I would love to see a man perfect as Christ is perfect and free of sin.

An here we have those non OSAS troubled by sin and always feeling condemned, now how can that be if,

Rom_8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom_6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom_6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom_6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord

seems tha tonly those not in Christ should have such a problem.

 

[Phoneman777]

True no arguement there.

Hoiw can one be falsely secure in Christ, either one is secure in Christ or is not, either one is saved or one is not,

and yet no where in the bible does it declare one wil ever be free of sin, what is says is one will no longer be condemend, I would love to see a man perfect as Christ is perfect and free of sin.

An here we have those non OSAS troubled by sin and always feeling condemned, now how can that be if,

Rom_8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom_6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom_6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom_6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord

seems tha tonly those not in Christ should have such a problem.

Good gravy, man, did you even read the OP? This thread is not for debating each other about whether the Bible teaches OSAS, but how those on both sides of the issue are affected by their belief. Please read the OP.

 

[ATP]

That said, why should my salvation that is fully predicated on whether I abide in the Vine or not drive me to anxiety?

Isa 55:13 ESV Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress; instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle; and it shall make a name for the LORD, an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.”

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - and it shall be to the Lord for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off; that is, these persons, who are become and made like to fir and myrtle trees, shall be called by the name of the Lord, shall bear his name, support his Gospel and interest, and be for his praise, and to the glory of his grace, who has done such great and wonderful things for them;

and shall be for an everlasting sign and monument of the love, grace, power, and faithfulness of God, and for a sure token that the church and people of God shall not be cut off, but that God will have a people to serve him as long as the sun and moon endure.

 

[ATP]

Let's see if everybody can connect the dots..

peithó: to persuade, to have confidence
Original Word: πείθω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: peithó
Phonetic Spelling: (pi'-tho)
Short Definition: I persuade, urge
Definition: I persuade, urge.

Rom 8:38-39 NIV For I am convinced (peithó) that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

1 Cor 15:17-18 NIV And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.

Rom 6:3-7 NIV Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

2 Cor 4:10-12 NIV We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

 

[mjrhealth]

Does belief in unshakeable eternal security from new birth till death produce good fruit, ie repentance from sin and faith towards God and concern for souls.

And does belief in the danger of losing salvation produce insecurity and neurosis and carnal fear of God?

Exactly.

On point 1. yes. it says " for those whom He sets free are free indeed" how can one be troubled by sin when one has being redeemd by Christ.

While point 2 the other side are always troubled by sin. plenty of posts, sorry, far to many posts, on teh subjec of sin.

 

[StanJ]

Let's see if everybody can connect the dots..
peithó: to persuade, to have confidence
Original Word: πείθω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: peithó
Phonetic Spelling: (pi'-tho)
Short Definition: I persuade, urge
Definition: I persuade, urge.
Rom 8:38-39 NIV For I am convinced (peithó) that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 John 5:13-14 NIV I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
1 Cor 15:17-18 NIV And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.
Rom 6:3-7 NIV Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
2 Cor 4:10-12 NIV We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

I'll tell you the same thing I told you here; http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/21933-analysis-of-matthew-2412-13-why-it-disproves-osas/page-19#entry275272

Apparently you're very much into cookie-cutter answers?

 

[r4hnsn]

There are devoted, God-loving and God-fearing Christians amongst Calvinists and non-Calvinists. This is not an issue of salvation so I dont think it is appropriate to say that the correct group should produce fruit while those in error will not. If that were the case, none of us would produce fruit as we are all certainly limited in our understanding and in error on many things. Correct doctrine on debatable matters is not a guarantee of Christ-likeness. A person can be theologically correct but also be void of kindness and love.

Not so my friend, as a man thinketh in his heart (theology) so he is.

I didnt intend to say that there were not lovely people in each group. What I was asking was Does your theology lead to true Christ-likeness?

Please read the OP carefully folks, I was asking what is others observations of their own church experience, but its already degenerated into a right/wrong thread. Guess i shouldn`t have posted in theology topic?

 

[mjrhealth]

Please read the OP carefully folks, I was asking what is others observations of their own church experience, but its already degenerated into a right/wrong thread. Guess i shouldn`t have posted in theology topic?

Truth is I didnt quiet understand the question, got it now. Wouldnt matter where you posted it, would of ended up teh same way. Should state I belong to no man made church, I belong to Christ, which is where all men should be. And I have no thelology cant even spell it...

 

[Wormwood]

Not so my friend, as a man thinketh in his heart (theology) so he is.
I didnt intend to say that there were not lovely people in each group. What I was asking was Does your theology lead to true Christ-likeness?
Please read the OP carefully folks, I was asking what is others observations of their own church experience, but its already degenerated into a right/wrong thread. Guess i shouldn`t have posted in theology topic?

Perhaps you need to clarify your OP because clearly most are not understanding what kind of discussion you are looking to promote here. This is what you said in the OP...

The premise set here is that right theology proves itself by its fruit.

I disagreed with this premise. I argued that there are fruitful people on both sides. This is a debatable issue and so I do not think we can say that only the people who are "right" on this issue will be fruitful.

Does belief in unshakeable eternal security from new birth till death produce good fruit, ie repentance from sin and faith towards God and concern for souls.
And does belief in the danger of losing salvation produce insecurity and neurosis and carnal fear of God?

I think I was trying to answer this question as well. I have been in and know leaders from both camps. I can attest that they both have good fruit and neither doctrine is to be the sole blame of any person's neurosis or lack of fruit. That is my experience and I think church history testifies as well that there have been powerful, godly and influential people from both sides of this issue.

 

[H. Richard]

True no arguement there.

Hoiw can one be falsely secure in Christ, either one is secure in Christ or is not, either one is saved or one is not,

and yet no where in the bible does it declare one wil ever be free of sin, what is says is one will no longer be condemend, I would love to see a man perfect as Christ is perfect and free of sin.

An here we have those non OSAS troubled by sin and always feeling condemned, now how can that be if,

Rom_8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom_6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom_6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom_6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord

seems tha tonly those not in Christ should have such a problem.

I feel that those who are always troubled by their sins of the flesh have never been set free of them by believing Jesus when He had Paul tell us that His shed blood has already paid for ALL our sins of the flesh. Jesus paid the price for the sins of ALL men/women. THEY ARE ALREADY PAID FOR. That is why it says we have been set free.

The only sin that condemns a person today is to refuse to trust (have faith, belief, confidence) in what Jesus did for all of mankind. Think of it this way, God had His only begotten Son shed His blood on a cross so that mankind could be saved. How do you think God feels when a person rejects what His Son has done and wants to trust in what they do in religions?

 

[H. Richard]

being "Christ like" is not what a child of God is all about. No one can be like Christ. I remember well that Satan told Eve that if she ate from the tree she would be "LIKE GOD".

The fruit that a child of God is to bring forth is more children of God.

 

[Wormwood]

being "Christ like" is not what a child of God is all about. No one can be like Christ.

“Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.” (1 John 2:6, NIV84)

“Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:” (Philippians 2:5, NIV84)

“To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.” (1 Peter 2:21, NIV84)

 

[StanJ]

Not so my friend, as a man thinketh in his heart (theology) so he is.
I didnt intend to say that there were not lovely people in each group. What I was asking was Does your theology lead to true Christ-likeness?
Please read the OP carefully folks, I was asking what is others observations of their own church experience, but its already degenerated into a right/wrong thread. Guess i shouldn`t have posted in theology topic?

As I said in the second post of this thread, you have not properly framed your OP. Why are you then surprised that everybody is not clear on what the issue is?