The fruits of OSAS and fruits its Opponent theolgy

[justaname]

The following link will take awhile to read but it's well worth the effort. It's one of the most balanced articles I've ever read on 'free will'

http://rzim.org/just-thinking/a-willful-walk

Twas a good read certainly. Cheers for the link!

 

[mjrhealth]

Twas a good read certainly. Cheers for the link!

Was a good read, surrendering our will to God is one of teh few things that pleases Him because it shows our willingness to loose our lives for His sake.

 

[Phoneman777]

Conditional Salvation paints a glorious picture of God. It is a belief system that reveals His infinite love for His fallen creatures that He demonstrated through the life, death, and resurrection of His Son, while at the same time maintaining the great Universal Law of Love, the standard of righteousness to which we must all come up. Without God's work of redemption we would be helpless slaves to sin without so much as even a thought of life beyond the misery and death that is the only reward for such servitude. But, thanks to Him, we have the choice to either remain in the same old service of Satan, or daily take up our Cross and follow Him all the way into His kingdom.

The most powerful evidence of God's indwelling power is not the hand that works miracles, but the mind that refuses to continue in Satan's service - that chooses to remain faithful to Him Who has never been unfaithful to us. Only those who choose to surrender and remain surrendered to God - those whose continual prayer is "not my will but Thy will be done" - will be heirs to the kingdom. The claim that this is "works based salvation" is made by those who are blinded by Satan; they cannot see that "choice" is not "works" but "thought". God appeals to intelligent human beings to choose Him day by day, hour by hour, moment by moment, and they are rewarded with power to become more in the image of Jesus with each passing day. I thank God that I have the choice to either stay surrendered to Him or turn back and be blotted out of existence for all eternity in the Day of Judgment. I pity those who wish to excuse the sin they so freely indulge now with false ideas, for the idea of an eternity without opportunity to sin must be torturous to them.

 

[FHII]

Phoneman,

That was a pretty good post up until the end.

I believe in predestination in that God chose some folks before the foundations of the world were laid. That does not mean it would be easy. It simplt means God knows, and wills it. And i believe God will get his way.

There are going to be trials: both physical and spiritual. Believers are going to have to contend for the faith. We don't know the end but God does and he declared it and his will will be done.

Speaking only on my behalf, i never thought going through such was work based as Paul declares works not being involved with faith and salvation.

We must have faith. The bible says Jesus gave us that faith, and at other times it says its our own.

What i object to is a person's works being needed: obeying the law (which no one does), not smoking, not drinking, not looking at playboy... Giving to charity, voting for pro life candidates.... All this is filthy rags.

Good works i believe in. Your works (my works incuded) i don't. I believe we should do them... But they aren't accounted as righteousness.

Now, you want to talk about your love for God and staying faithful. I agree. And you claim it is a shame that some accuse such as being works based salvation. I'm with you on that.

BUT at the end of ypur post ypu said you pity those who shrug off sin (paraphrasing)?

First, who says ANY of us do this? True, I don't fret about it, and i actually don't try not to sin. Then again, i don't codone any sin and I don't try TO sin. I focus on staying true to the commandments Jesus gave (not the ones that Moses gave). Vicariously, i tend to keep them too, but they arent my aim.

So, you stated you aren't about works, then said you pity those who don't do works. See, if you strive and make it your purpose to keep a law and covenant we are no longer under, you are under the law of works.

 

[Phoneman777]

Phoneman,

That was a pretty good post up until the end.

I believe in predestination in that God chose some folks before the foundations of the world were laid. That does not mean it would be easy. It simplt means God knows, and wills it. And i believe God will get his way.

There are going to be trials: both physical and spiritual. Believers are going to have to contend for the faith. We don't know the end but God does and he declared it and his will will be done.

Speaking only on my behalf, i never thought going through such was work based as Paul declares works not being involved with faith and salvation.

We must have faith. The bible says Jesus gave us that faith, and at other times it says its our own.

What i object to is a person's works being needed: obeying the law (which no one does), not smoking, not drinking, not looking at playboy... Giving to charity, voting for pro life candidates.... All this is filthy rags.

Good works i believe in. Your works (my works incuded) i don't. I believe we should do them... But they aren't accounted as righteousness.

Now, you want to talk about your love for God and staying faithful. I agree. And you claim it is a shame that some accuse such as being works based salvation. I'm with you on that.

BUT at the end of ypur post ypu said you pity those who shrug off sin (paraphrasing)?

First, who says ANY of us do this? True, I don't fret about it, and i actually don't try not to sin. Then again, i don't codone any sin and I don't try TO sin. I focus on staying true to the commandments Jesus gave (not the ones that Moses gave). Vicariously, i tend to keep them too, but they arent my aim.

So, you stated you aren't about works, then said you pity those who don't do works. See, if you strive and make it your purpose to keep a law and covenant we are no longer under, you are under the law of works.

Works are an essential component of salvation, but not as the means by which we obtain salvation, just the evidence that we have obtained it through faith. But, many refuse to believe this, claiming their "freedom in Christ" allows them to deliberately sin while covered by His forgiveness. Jesus will treat these as He never knew them in the Judgment, even though these Christians plead with Him for mercy as they draw His attention to all the things they'd done in His name. That's what I like about Conditional Salvation. It sweeps away the saccharine sentimentalism of cheap grace and sets a clear dividing line between the service of Christ or Satan and allows me to see clearly that I'm on the winning side with Jesus.

 

[FHII]

Works are an essential component of salvation, but not as the means by which we obtain salvation, just the evidence that we have obtained it through faith. But, many refuse to believe this, claiming their "freedom in Christ" allows them to deliberately sin while covered by His forgiveness. Jesus will treat these as He never knew them in the Judgment, even though these Christians plead with Him for mercy as they draw His attention to all the things they'd done in His name. That's what I like about Conditional Salvation. It sweeps away the saccharine sentimentalism of cheap grace and sets a clear dividing line between the service of Christ or Satan and allows me to see clearly that I'm on the winning side with Jesus.

1. No works are NOT an essential component of faith. Faith is an essential component of salvation and our works of the flesh have no part of it.

2. Works are NOT evidence of faith in the eyes of God. -- he looks not on the flesh but one the heart; he lloks not at the seen but the unseen. This is why he said give in secret, pray in secret and fast in secret. Works do not justify you in the eyes of God. They only justify you in the eyes of men.

3. Show me someone who HASN'T deliberately sinned! Or willfully sinned!

4. I absolutely agree with what you said about Jesus saying "i never knew you" to THOSE who parade their works before him. People who try to justify themselves with their works are damned. Absolutely agree!

5. Grace ain't cheap. Its free to thosr who have faith. You had it right until you tried to usher in works through the back door.

Again, good works paul and jesus said to do.

 

[mjrhealth]

Works are an essential component of salvation, but not as the means by which we obtain salvation

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Grace requires you to believe, you say it is easy yet so few christians do, they walk in unbelif, just go read your own posts.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

and one to stir the pot

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

So what was Abrahams work, he walked in faith, He believed God, and God worked through Him. It is never ever ever our work.

Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

[Phoneman777]

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Grace requires you to believe, you say it is easy yet so few christians do, they walk in unbelif, just go read your own posts.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

and one to stir the pot

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

So what was Abrahams work, he walked in faith, He believed God, and God worked through Him. It is never ever ever our work.

Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. y works, and not by faith only?" James 2:21,24 KJV

Abraham was not justified by his works per se, but that his works evidenced outwardly the inward salvation he'd already accepted.I agree, works cannot save anyone. They are the essential evidence that salvation has been received by faith, just as disdain for works and a refusal to allow the Holy Spirit to empower us to live a life of obedience is the evidence of a soul bound for destruction.

 

[FHII]

James was looking for justification in the eyes of men.

 

[mjrhealth]

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

They where not His works, Abraham believed God,

at age 99,

Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

God made a promise to him,

problem

Gen 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
Gen 18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

Gen 21:1 And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken.
Gen 21:2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.
Gen 21:3 And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac.

Faith is never easy, it is why it pleases God so much, to believe when everything stands against you.


Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

God tempts no man, He may test us not same thing, but here He is tested in His"FAITH".

So you see it was because God sent Him that He went, it was by faith He did this thing it was not of Himself, it was not his idea, it was God,

Abraham believed God and tha twas counted for righteousness.

When we believe God His works will follow, not our own.

And yet Abraham died before God fulfilled His final promise. making Him a father of many nations,

God is not slack in these things.

 

[KingJ]

Abraham believed God and tha twas counted for righteousness.

When we believe God His works will follow, not our own.

And yet Abraham died before God fulfilled His final promise. making Him a father of many nations,

God is not slack in these things.

It is more then that I believe MJR. Abraham believed ''IN'' God. He knew God was good and trusted his son in His hands....because he approves of what is good. The devils believe God but hate Him.

 

[KingJ]

1. No works are NOT an essential component of faith. Faith is an essential component of salvation and our works of the flesh have no part of it.

2. Works are NOT evidence of faith in the eyes of God. -- he looks not on the flesh but one the heart; he lloks not at the seen but the unseen. This is why he said give in secret, pray in secret and fast in secret. Works do not justify you in the eyes of God. They only justify you in the eyes of men.

3. Show me someone who HASN'T deliberately sinned! Or willfully sinned!

4. I absolutely agree with what you said about Jesus saying "i never knew you" to THOSE who parade their works before him. People who try to justify themselves with their works are damned. Absolutely agree!

5. Grace ain't cheap. Its free to thosr who have faith. You had it right until you tried to usher in works through the back door.

Again, good works paul and jesus said to do.

1. Faith is given to those who are after His heart. Without it given nobody can truthfully call Jesus Lord 1 Cor 12:3.

2. Jesus says we are known by our fruits.

3. All have sinned and continue to sin but not all continue in mortal sin.

4. You need to look closer at the works. Compare Matt 7:22 to James 1:27. Works are not the issue. Vanity is.

5. Grace / salvation is a plane that leaves the airport to heaven. We have to get to the airport. Then being human, we need to constantly ensure we are on the plane. OSAS is true but only something God can know for certain. He does not make mistakes but we do. We can only have confidence after harsh self judgment 1 Cor 11:31 / Phil 2:12.

 

[mjrhealth]

It is more then that I believe MJR. Abraham believed ''IN'' God.

Play of words, a lot of people believe in, ie they believe He exists, but very few actually " believe" Him. ie look at all the posts about how God seemingly cannot save mankind. Id be more inclined to say, Abraham Knew God, he had a relationship with Him as did Enoch and Elijiah even David. We can even today, but you need to believe He is real..

 

[KingJ]

This is not intended as a mud slinging, point at the log in the others eye discussion/debate.

The premise set here is that right theology proves itself by its fruit.

Does belief in unshakeable eternal security from new birth till death produce good fruit, ie repentance from sin and faith towards God and concern for souls.

And does belief in the danger of losing salvation produce insecurity and neurosis and carnal fear of God?

What is your experience been in your church? Please don`t comment on someone else`s church, or a church not actively involved for reasonable time.

I have not been in a TULIP believing church, so can only say that in my experience (Pentecostal) most seem to have security in Gods love, but not nesessarily thorough repentance from sins. Mostly there is strong emphasis of evangelism and love towards the lost.

Lets be honest with ourselves here.

It is a Rom 14:5 disagreement so I can't imagine any significant difference in fruits. All I can think of is that NON OSAS tend to be more conservative and this leads to less flamboyant outreaches.

 

[KingJ]

Play of words, a lot of people believe in, ie they believe He exists, but very few actually " believe" Him. ie look at all the posts about how God seemingly cannot save mankind. Id be more inclined to say, Abraham Knew God, he had a relationship with Him as did Enoch and Elijiah even David. We can even today, but you need to believe He is real..

Yes, Abraham had a relationship with God. He could not have this unless he already believe He existed. There are terrible doctrines on faith in churches today. I explain it like this:

1. Faith that there is a God (we should all have Rom 1:20).
2. Faith that God is great (we should all have Rom 1:20).
3. Faith that Jesus is God (only Christians have 1 Cor 12:3).
4. Faith that God is good (this is the faith we all grow in. This was Abraham and Job's faith).

So to me your statement was sounding like Abraham had 1 and 2 and that made him special. When anyone who does not have 1 or 2 is described in Psalm 14:1.

 

[Zachary]

Where exactly do you see this 'true saving belief' you talk about?

I see it referred to in many NT passages.
Many of these are the conditional "IF" passages.
Butski, you don't seem to understand what "IF" means.
If you are American, then I understand why.
'Tis quite beneficial to have been trained to think critically.
Butski, Americans have been trained to be mere sheeple.
I say this NOT to offend, but to speak Truth!

 

[FHII]

1. Faith is given to those who are after His heart. Without it given nobody can truthfully call Jesus Lord 1 Cor 12:3.

2. Jesus says we are known by our fruits.

3. All have sinned and continue to sin but not all continue in mortal sin.

4. You need to look closer at the works. Compare Matt 7:22 to James 1:27. Works are not the issue. Vanity is.

5. Grace / salvation is a plane that leaves the airport to heaven. We have to get to the airport. Then being human, we need to constantly ensure we are on the plane. OSAS is true but only something God can know for certain. He does not make mistakes but we do. We can only have confidence after harsh self judgment 1 Cor 11:31 / Phil 2:12.

2. No he didn't. Read more carefully.
3. Mortal sin.... Sins of the flesh??? Yea we all continue in them until the day we die.
4. No I don't... Says nothing about vanity in Mat 7:22 and Jas 1:27 says nothing about vanity either.
5. There are no airports in heaven.... Never cared much for analogies that make no sense

 

[KingJ]

2. No he didn't. Read more carefully.
3. Mortal sin.... Sins of the flesh??? Yea we all continue in them until the day we die.
4. No I don't... Says nothing about vanity in Mat 7:22 and Jas 1:27 says nothing about vanity either.
5. There are no airports in heaven.... Never cared much for analogies that make no sense

2. Matt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? What am I missing? We are not God that can look inside a heart.

3. No. Mortal sins got you stoned to death OT and in the Rom 7:15 Paul was certainly not referring to killing Christians when he said ''what I do I hate''.

4. Matt 7:22 can cause vanity. Helping widows and orphans, hardly ever. Hence these works are called religion undefiled VS chasing out demons and such.

5. Well we are not saved by our ability to believe the unseen is seen. We are given saving faith because we actually have a heart after God's, evidenced by our works.

 

[FHII]

2. Matt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? What am I missing? We are not God that can look inside a heart.

3. No. Mortal sins got you stoned to death OT and in the Rom 7:15 Paul was certainly not referring to killing Christians when he said ''what I do I hate''.

4. Matt 7:22 can cause vanity. Helping widows and orphans, hardly ever. Hence these works are called religion undefiled VS chasing out demons and such.

5. Well we are not saved by our ability to believe the unseen is seen. We are given saving faith because we actually have a heart after God's, evidenced by our works.

Mat 7:16 is talking about how to identify false prophets, not how to identify if one has faith. Jesus talked about how to do that in the 6th chapter, and it was not for men to see, but for God to see.

"Fruits" we are supposed to have are listed in Eph 5 and i believe Gal 5. They aren't works we do but attributes we have.

Thankyou for the clatification on "mortal sin". The concept is obsolete, however, because Jamed,Paul and Jesus noted if you break the smallest commandments you are guilty of all.

Your point about vanity and Mat 7:22 is a stretch. Thats not what it says.

 

[StanJ]

I see it referred to in many NT passages.
Many of these are the conditional "IF" passages.
Butski, you don't seem to understand what "IF" means.
If you are American, then I understand why.
'Tis quite beneficial to have been trained to think critically.
Butski, Americans have been trained to be mere sheeple.
I say this NOT to offend, but to speak Truth!

I asked you a simple and direct question which you just now avoided and deflected on. Answer the question. I can't be bothered discussing things with people that avoid the issue and just obfuscate the truth.