THE FULFILLMENT OF BABYLON THE GREAT, Part 2 of 2

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Spiritual Israelite

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"Father" for only God the Father in terms of worship, not in terms of normal titles used in the Bible. This is precisely where you are dead wrong.
1 Cor. 4:15 – Paul writes, “I became your father in Christ Jesus.” along with 18 other verses in post #2 you seem to be blind to.
You have way too high of an opinion of how convincing you think your arguments are. They are always very weak. What we're talking about here is addressing someone with the title "Father". That verse (1 Cor 4:15) has NOTHING to do with Paul expecting people to address him as "Father". Please spare me these weak arguments. They are a waste of time.

We use the figure of speech known as hyperbole or overstatement quite often in ordinary conversation. We overstate what we intend for the sake of emphasis or to make our statement colorful and memorable. Usually, our partner in the conversation immediately detects and unconsciously translates the overstatement. We accept it as a normal component of our communication. "It's raining cats and dogs" or "I told you a million times".
I don't need you to tell me what hyperbole is. Good grief. Do you know that you can't get this time back that you wasted telling me things I've already known for a long time?

Hyperbole occurs often in the Bible as well, but our detachment from biblical culture and language makes us prone to miss this figure of speech and take it literally instead. As a result, we misunderstand yet another biblical text. We may need help identifying hyperboles and distinguishing them from literal statements of fact.
Speak for yourself.

Some have taken literally the hyperbolic statements of Jesus about gouging out an eye or cutting off a hand (Matt. 5:29-30) or about self-castration (Matt. 19:12), with tragic results. Jesus is using hyperbole to emphasize the importance of resisting sin rather than blaming our transgression on our ability to see and touch or on our power to reproduce.
You're wasting your time. I never said that hyperbole is never used, I'm saying it wasn't used in this case. Are you able to understand that?

Your extreme literalism is probably due to the fundamentalist approach to the Bible, who are as literal as you are.
This is possibly the most ridiculous and hilarious statement that anyone has ever made to me. Do you know that, as an Amillennialist, I get accused of spiritualizing everything by Premillennialists? And here you are telling me about my supposed "extreme literalism"? LOL!!! You are a comedian.

You are the one who takes Jesus literally when He said to take the bread and eat of His body and take the drink of His blood. LOL. Who is the extreme literalist again? Such hypocrisy.

There is plenty of "text" in post #2 you keep running from, and you say I am stubborn?
I'm not running from anything. I'm showing you how weak your arguments are over and over again, but you won't ever acknowledge it because of how stubborn you are.
 
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Illuminator

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You have way too high of an opinion of how convincing you think your arguments are. They are always very weak. blah, blah, blah...
"call no man father"
1 Cor. 4:15 – Paul writes, “I became your father in Christ Jesus.” He calls himself "father" (in Christ Jesus) that according you, he's not supposed to do. "father", in this case, is a biblical title, such as "Father Abraham". You need to be correcting Paul and Moses. Or stop reading into text what isn't there.

Besides, priests don't care if you use the prefix, their first name will do. But most people, Catholic or not, will use the prefix "Father So&so" because they have manners. Priests don't expect everybody to be polite.

Judges 17:10; 18:19 – priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means “communicating one’s nature,” and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example.

I have to wonder which "father" you are railing against, because spiritual fatherhood to you is non-existent. It wouldn't surprise me if you didn't even have a pastor or a messianic rabbi.
 
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covenantee

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"call no man father"
1 Cor. 4:15 – Paul writes, “I became your father in Christ Jesus.” He calls himself "father" (in Christ Jesus) that according you, he's not supposed to do. "father", in this case, is a biblical title, such as "Father Abraham". You need to be correcting Paul and Moses. Or stop reading into text what isn't there.
Who addressed Paul as father?

Answer: No one.
 
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Illuminator

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You are the one who takes Jesus literally when He said to take the bread and eat of His body and take the drink of His blood. LOL. Who is the extreme literalist again? Such hypocrisy.
Try and retract your claws for a minute.

Mystery of the Catholic Eucharist and the Ancient Jewish 'Bread of the Presence' pt.1​

 

Spiritual Israelite

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"call no man father"
1 Cor. 4:15 – Paul writes, “I became your father in Christ Jesus.” He calls himself "father" (in Christ Jesus) that according you, he's not supposed to do.
He was not giving himself the title of "Father", which is the point. Keep up your desperate attempts to get around the fact that Jesus said not to give anyone the title of "Father" except for God the Father if you want, but these are very weak arguments that I can't take seriously.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Try and retract your claws for a minute.
Give me a break. Are you willing to humble yourself and admit that you were wrong to accuse me of being an extreme literalist? The fact of the matter is I take some scripture literally and some figuratively just like we all do.

Mystery of the Catholic Eucharist and the Ancient Jewish 'Bread of the Presence' pt.1​

I don't ever click on external links or watch videos that people post here. If there's something you'd like to tell me that is covered in the video, go ahead.
 

Illuminator

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Give me a break. Are you willing to humble yourself and admit that you were wrong to accuse me of being an extreme literalist? The fact of the matter is I take some scripture literally and some figuratively just like we all do.


I don't ever click on external links or watch videos that people post here. If there's something you'd like to tell me that is covered in the video, go ahead.
We’ve been focusing so far on the deep biblical roots of the Mass in the Old Testament in order to see how the Mass did not appear out of thin air, but in fact has ancient origins in the word of God. This month, we’re going to conclude our look at the Old Testament by exploring the showbread of the Temple, also known as the Bread of the Presence.

Last month, we looked in detail at what we know about the Bread of the Presence from Exodus 25. We find another detailed description of the Bread of the Presence in Leviticus 25:5-9. Here, we see that the bread and wine aren’t just signs of God’s presence but are signs of the covenant between God and Israel as well. Specifically, we read that there are 12 cakes of bread on the golden table in the tabernacle—one for each tribe, as a sign of the covenant.

A second detail is that the bread was set before God continually; it was a perpetual offering, a continual sign of God’s continuing presence with his people, even though they were no longer at Mount Sinai. We also see in verses 1-4 that the menorah was to be kept burning continually. In other words, together with the perpetual presence of the bread is a perpetual flame to be kept lit.

Another intriguing detail about the table is found in Numbers 4:7-8, where we’re told that when the table is taken out of the tabernacle, it is to be covered with a veil. In other words, whenever the vessel which contains the bread of the face of God is removed from the tabernacle, it is to be veiled.

Looking back to Leviticus though, we see another crucial detail: the Bread of the Presence wasn’t just a sign of God’s presence and of the covenant, it was also a sacrifice. Recall what we saw in the details of the table in Exodus: together with the bread and the sacred vessels for the libations, the table was to have vessels for incense. Why is this important? Because in the Old Testament, incense always accompanies sacrifices as a symbol of the sacrificial offering rising to God.

In other words, the Bread of the Presence is both a meal and a sacrifice: a meal that God offers to the priests as his gift to the people, and a sacrifice that they in turn offer to God on behalf of the people.

A final detail from Leviticus: the sacrifice of the Bread of the Presence was to be made every Sabbath Day as a most holy offering. So the Sabbath (the day of rest) is also a day of sacrifice. For the Israelites, the Sabbath worship was more than prayer and study of Scripture … it was also sacrificial. And the unbloody sacrifice offered each Sabbath was that of the Bread of the Presence. On the Sabbath, the bread was offered to God and it was consumed by the priests on behalf of the people!

Clearly, the Bread of the Presence was of great significance for the people of Israel. It was one of the most sacred objects in the Holy Place; it was the Sabbath sacrifice; it was the sign of the covenant between God and his people; and it was the bread of God’s continual presence among his people.

A second detail is that the bread was set before God continually; it was a perpetual offering, a continual sign of God’s continuing presence with his people, even though they were no longer at Mount Sinai. We also see in verses 1-4 that the menorah was to be kept burning continually. In other words, together with the perpetual presence of the bread is a perpetual flame to be kept lit.

Another intriguing detail about the table is found in Numbers 4:7-8, where we’re told that when the table is taken out of the tabernacle, it is to be covered with a veil. In other words, whenever the vessel which contains the bread of the face of God is removed from the tabernacle, it is to be veiled.

Looking back to Leviticus though, we see another crucial detail: the Bread of the Presence wasn’t just a sign of God’s presence and of the covenant, it was also a sacrifice. Recall what we saw in the details of the table in Exodus: together with the bread and the sacred vessels for the libations, the table was to have vessels for incense. Why is this important? Because in the Old Testament, incense always accompanies sacrifices as a symbol of the sacrificial offering rising to God.

In other words, the Bread of the Presence is both a meal and a sacrifice: a meal that God offers to the priests as his gift to the people, and a sacrifice that they in turn offer to God on behalf of the people.

A final detail from Leviticus: the sacrifice of the Bread of the Presence was to be made every Sabbath Day as a most holy offering. So the Sabbath (the day of rest) is also a day of sacrifice. For the Israelites, the Sabbath worship was more than prayer and study of Scripture … it was also sacrificial. And the unbloody sacrifice offered each Sabbath was that of the Bread of the Presence. On the Sabbath, the bread was offered to God and it was consumed by the priests on behalf of the people!

Clearly, the Bread of the Presence was of great significance for the people of Israel. It was one of the most sacred objects in the Holy Place; it was the Sabbath sacrifice; it was the sign of the covenant between God and his people; and it was the bread of God’s continual presence among his people.

We’ll conclude by looking at what one fascinating ancient Jewish tradition tells us about the Bread of the Presence. It concerns how the Bread of the Presence was understood in Jesus’ own time.

At that time, Jewish men went to Jerusalem and the Temple three times a year: for the feasts of Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles. According to several sources, at each of these feasts, the Temple priests would bring the Golden Temple of the Bread of the Presence out of the Holy Place so that the pilgrims could see it. The priests would then take the sacred bread, elevate it for the pilgrims to see, and say these words: “Behold, God’s love for you!” This is an incredible practice, for no one but the priests were allowed to enter the Holy Place to see the sacred objects found there. But three times a year, the Jewish people were allowed to see one of the sacred objects hidden from view: the Bread of the Presence. Bread regarding which the priests proclaimed “Behold, God’s love for you!”

For first-century Jews, then, the Bread of the Presence was no ordinary bread. It was the bread of the face of God himself, the sign of God’s love for his people.

There is much more that could be said about the Bread of the Presence, but we’re going to conclude our discussion by making explicit what is already very clear: the Bread of the Presence—the visible sign of God’s love for his people—sets the stage for Jesus’ teaching on the Eucharist.

Why did Jesus choose bread and wine as the material for the Eucharist instead of a Passover Lamb? Because the Jewish people—with the bread and wine of the presence in the background—would easily see how bread and wine could represent God’s presence, and how it was important that these symbols be eaten. But even more (remember, Jesus always surpasses the Old Testament expectation) the bread and wine of the New Covenant, the new bread and wine of the presence, were not merely symbols of God’s presence and love … they were and are God himself.
source
 

Illuminator

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He was not giving himself the title of "Father", which is the point.
Paul was describing his spiritual relationship to the Corinthians that you keep denying. "I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus." We do the same with priests because it's biblical. Stephen does the same thing:
Acts 7:2 And Stephen replied: ‘Brothers and fathers, listen to me. The God of glory appeared to our ancestor Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,
"Brothers" is a title that distinguishes believers from non-believers as well, unless you want to argue that Stephen had more that one biological father.

Acts 22:1 ‘Brothers and fathers, listen to the defence that I now make before you.’

1 John 2:13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning...

Philemon 10 I am appealing to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become during my imprisonment.

According to you, Stephen, Paul, John and Philemon are defying Jesus, who said "call no man father" because you read into one verse what isn't there.
 
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covenantee

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Paul was describing his spiritual relationship to the Corinthians that you keep denying. "I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus." We do the same with priests because it's biblical. Stephen does the same thing:
Acts 7:2 And Stephen replied: ‘Brothers and fathers, listen to me. The God of glory appeared to our ancestor Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,
"Brothers" is a title that distinguishes believers from non-believers as well, unless you want to argue that Stephen had more that one biological father.

Acts 22:1 ‘Brothers and fathers, listen to the defence that I now make before you.’

1 John 2:13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning...

Philemon 10 I am appealing to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become during my imprisonment.

According to you, Stephen, Paul, John and Philemon are defying Jesus, who said "call no man father" because you read into scripture what isn't there.
Thanks for the guffaws.

Who in Scripture addressed Stephen, Paul, John, or Philemon as "father"?

Book, chapter, verse, please.
 
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covenantee

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Paul was describing his spiritual relationship to the Corinthians that you keep denying. "I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus." We do the same with priests because it's biblical. Stephen does the same thing:
Acts 7:2 And Stephen replied: ‘Brothers and fathers, listen to me. The God of glory appeared to our ancestor Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,
"Brothers" is a title that distinguishes believers from non-believers as well, unless you want to argue that Stephen had more that one biological father.

Acts 22:1 ‘Brothers and fathers, listen to the defence that I now make before you.’

1 John 2:13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning...

Philemon 10 I am appealing to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become during my imprisonment.

According to you, Stephen, Paul, John and Philemon are defying Jesus, who said "call no man father" because you read into scripture what isn't there.
Oh, wait.

Maybe Paul addressed himself as "father".

That would be an early variation of the later song "I'm My Own Grandpa".

That must be the explanation. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Paul was describing his spiritual relationship to the Corinthians that you keep denying. "I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus." We do the same with priests because it's biblical. Stephen does the same thing:
Acts 7:2 And Stephen replied: ‘Brothers and fathers, listen to me. The God of glory appeared to our ancestor Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,
"Brothers" is a title that distinguishes believers from non-believers as well, unless you want to argue that Stephen had more that one biological father.

Acts 22:1 ‘Brothers and fathers, listen to the defence that I now make before you.’

1 John 2:13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning...

Philemon 10 I am appealing to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become during my imprisonment.

According to you, Stephen, Paul, John and Philemon are defying Jesus, who said "call no man father" because you read into one verse what isn't there.
None of them were called by the title "Father". You continue to ignore the point that is being made. Just keep being stubborn and ignoring the point then. You are good at that.
 
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Truth7t7

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Jerusalem is not like Babylon of old but greater because it is not the center of trade in the world and does not rule over the world.
Jerusalem is "Mystery Babylon" because of it's "Spiritual Condition"

Jerusalem will rule the world when the future (Man Of Sin/The Beast) takes his seat in Jerusalem, the entire unsaved world will worship him