The God that mankind is rebelling against doesn't exist.

[Episkopos]

By not trusting in the finished work of the Cross.

So then as long as I trust in the cure...the finished work of the cross...the wages of sin are no longer death? I can sin now and be at peace about it because that is no longer an issue?

I can tell you where that gospel comes from...the tempter.

 

[justbyfaith]

So then as long as I trust in the cure...the finished work of the cross...the wages of sin are no longer death? I can sin now and be at peace about it because that is no longer an issue?

I can tell you where that gospel comes from...the tempter.

A man cannot be saved apart from the understanding that he is a sinner. The scripture hath concluded all under sin, in order that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

If I say that I have no sin, I deceive myself, and the truth is not in me.

The only way to salvation is to be forgiven through the Cross. Practical righteousness is the benefit of being forgiven. But it is not the reason why we are forgiven.

We are forgiven because of Christ's shed blood.

If I were to turn over a new leaf, and never sinned again, but were not forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ, I would be condemned over all of the sins that I committed before I turned over a new leaf.

We are saved by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

And therefore my living a new life will not have the power to save me in the slightest.

Now of course, if I am forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ, it will be true of me that I am a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

But I am not forgiven because of having been made a new creature; I am a new creature because I am forgiven.

I love much because I have been forgiven much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5).

 

[CoreIssue]

god
noun
\ ˈgäd also ˈgȯd

\
Definition of god
(Entry 1 of 2)

1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe
b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality Greek gods of love and war
3 : a person or thing of supreme value had photos of baseball's gods pinned to his bedroom wall
4 : a powerful ruler Hollywood gods that control our movies' fates


The god most worship is self.

 

[bbyrd009]

And it is also true that the devil is not what people think he is. He is far craftier than people think. Which leads back to the OP. How could people get God so wrong unless the lies were that well crafted?

well pls there is only One Immortal is not exactly convoluted language or anything

 

[bbyrd009]

If I were to turn over a new leaf, and never sinned again, but were not forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ

1 John 2:2 Lexicon: and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

, I would be condemned over all of the sins that I committed before I turned over a new leaf.

Luke 19:8 Lexicon: Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much."
Luke 19:9 Lexicon: And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

 

[bbyrd009]

and fwiw the rest of that Lukechapter contains a parable about what one can expect from info gotten from those they have paid money to who make Financial Arrangements for Jesus with their governments

do yourself a favor and go find a Right Pastor who has not signed a 501c3

 

[bbyrd009]

By not trusting in the finished work of the Cross.

what does that even mean, jbf?

 

[justbyfaith]

1 John 2:2 Lexicon: and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Luke 19:8 Lexicon: Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, "Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I will give back four times as much."
Luke 19:9 Lexicon: And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

It should be clear that the change of life exhibited by Zaccheus was the result of faith in Jesus Christ. Zaccheus believed that Jesus was the Messiah. Now Jesus had not yet died on the Cross; however Zaccheus' repentance was the sign of a heart that would believe in the substitutionary atonement the moment it would be heard of. It was as good as done, that Zaccheus was saved because of his repentance.

However, scripture is clear that we are not justified apart from the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

what does that even mean, jbf?

It means that we are forgiven of our sins thorugh what Jesus did for us on the Cross; and that if we do not believe in Him, even in what He did for us there, then we have not availed ourselves of that forgiveness.

 

[bbyrd009]

It should be clear that the change of life exhibited by Zaccheus was the result of faith in Jesus Christ. Zaccheus believed that Jesus was the Messiah. Now Jesus had not yet died on the Cross; however Zaccheus' repentance was the sign of a heart that would believe in the substitutionary atonement the moment it would be heard of. It was as good as done, that Zaccheus was saved because of his repentance.

However, scripture is clear that we are not justified apart from the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

ok, might be better to ask you about the Good Samaritan, so all the religious baggage does not have to be considered maybe, as it appears many assumptions are now being made about Z the sellout and Roman tax collector that imo can't really be argued even

It means that we are forgiven of our sins thorugh what Jesus did for us on the Cross;

as is the whole world, yes

and that if we do not believe in Him, even in what He did for us there, then we have not availed ourselves of that forgiveness.

i suggest that you cannot Quote that, and you can "believe in" whatever you like, beliefs will not spare you from judgement, as Scripture makes abundantly plain except maybe in English, wherein "faith" has been so conveniently written out in favor of "belief."
"No Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins will die"
so if you want to believe in things the Bible says, then believe that!

See bc there are two ways to Read "Jesus died for my sins," but Only one way to Read that so it will comport with the one above I guess. The Priest breaks up Nehushtan

 

[justbyfaith]

Nehushtan has to do with making a physical idol out of the Cross.

Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father except through me...

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 speaks of the fact that we are saved by our keeping in memory of the gospel, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures. Romans 5:9 speaks of the fact that we are justified by His blood; and so does Romans 3:25: see also Romans 5:1.

Now this quote:

"No Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins will die"

You need to give chapter and verse on this so that it can be looked at in its context; otherwise you have no ground to stand on in quoting it.

 

[brakelite]

Yet Jesus broke the letter of the law in healing on the sabbath (John 5:17-18). Yet He did not violate the spirit of the law.

If you can show me any statute that forbade healing on the Sabbath, then you may have grounds for your assertion, but as far as I am aware there isn't, therefore you are taking the side and the word of the enemies of Christ who accused Him...which you are now agreeing with.
You should also read more carefully others responses to you, as quiethinker's post explaining this very matter.

 

[brakelite]

A man cannot be saved apart from the understanding that he is a sinner. The scripture hath concluded all under sin, in order that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

If I say that I have no sin, I deceive myself, and the truth is not in me.

The only way to salvation is to be forgiven through the Cross. Practical righteousness is the benefit of being forgiven. But it is not the reason why we are forgiven.

We are forgiven because of Christ's shed blood.

If I were to turn over a new leaf, and never sinned again, but were not forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ, I would be condemned over all of the sins that I committed before I turned over a new leaf.

We are saved by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

And therefore my living a new life will not have the power to save me in the slightest.

Now of course, if I am forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ, it will be true of me that I am a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

But I am not forgiven because of having been made a new creature; I am a new creature because I am forgiven.

I love much because I have been forgiven much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5).

The above is a very common opinion on what the gospel is. Even a majority opinion. I am a sinner. I sin. I can't stop sinning so I need Jesus. Jesus forgives my non-stop sinning. His blood saves me. Yay, I'm going to heaven.

And not one hint if the need of repentance...forsaking all evil...obedience...faithfulness....fruit growing....


Because it is all about the so-called "finished work of the cross". Let me tell you, the work of the cross may have been finished, but that isn't what saves you. You are not saved just because you have been justified. What saves you is Christ's continuing ministry in the heavenly sanctuary from which He empowers you to live the life of the Law-giver coupled with His shed blood on the cross...no Israelite ever was at peace with just the sacrifice. The priest needed to enter the temple and take the blood there to sprinkle it before the veil, behind which was the law and the God who gave it. The blood did not remove that law...and Christ's blood hasn't either. The law stands, death remains the penalty for its transgression, and the blood never avails anyone who deliberately and with presumption continuously transgresses that law because he mistakenly or stubbornly refuses to live a life of faith in the power of the gospel that delivers men from sin's power.

 

[justbyfaith]

If you can show me any statute that forbade healing on the Sabbath, then you may have grounds for your assertion, but as far as I am aware there isn't, therefore you are taking the side and the word of the enemies of Christ who accused Him...which you are now agreeing with.
You should also read more carefully others responses to you, as quiethinker's post explaining this very matter.

Jhn 5:17, But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Jhn 5:18, Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

I believe that the basic premise of the OT sabbath law is that you are not supposed to work on the sabbath day.

Exo 20:8, Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9, Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10, But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11, For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The above is a very common opinion on what the gospel is. Even a majority opinion. I am a sinner. I sin. I can't stop sinning so I need Jesus. Jesus forgives my non-stop sinning. His blood saves me. Yay, I'm going to heaven.

And not one hint if the need of repentance...forsaking all evil...obedience...faithfulness....fruit growing....


Because it is all about the so-called "finished work of the cross". Let me tell you, the work of the cross may have been finished, but that isn't what saves you. You are not saved just because you have been justified. What saves you is Christ's continuing ministry in the heavenly sanctuary from which He empowers you to live the life of the Law-giver coupled with His shed blood on the cross...no Israelite ever was at peace with just the sacrifice. The priest needed to enter the temple and take the blood there to sprinkle it before the veil, behind which was the law and the God who gave it. The blood did not remove that law...and Christ's blood hasn't either. The law stands, death remains the penalty for its transgression, and the blood never avails anyone who deliberately and with presumption continuously transgresses that law because he mistakenly or stubbornly refuses to live a life of faith in the power of the gospel that delivers men from sin's power.

Now consider the following passages:

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11, But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12, And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13, Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Jas 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12, So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Mat 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If anyone seeks to be justified by the law, they must continue in all things that are written in the law to do them; if they offend in one point they are guilty of all; and the standard is perfection.

If you think you can do that then by all means try to do that. Of course, there is still your past to consider:

1Jo 1:10, If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I think that the only real solution is what is written elsewhere:

Rom 3:21, But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24, Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25, Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26, To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[brakelite]

Jhn 5:17, But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Jhn 5:18, Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

I believe that the basic premise of the OT sabbath law is that you are not supposed to work on the sabbath day.

Exo 20:8, Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9, Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10, But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11, For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I asked for a quote that forbade healing on the Sabbath. I am surprised , no, shocked you would stoop so low in that you are using the Pharisees' justification for persecuting Jesus as your own justification for throwing out the law. Jesus said to them that they themselves would rightfully pull their donkey or sheep out of a ditch if it was stuck in there on Sabbath. How would they justify that? Because as Jesus affirmed with them, it was lawful (it was NOT therefore a transgression against the law) to do good on the Sabbath. And Jesus then challenged them to their face...is not a child of Israel more worthy than a donkey?

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11, But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12, And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13, Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Jas 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12, So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Mat 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If anyone seeks to be justified by the law, they must continue in all things that are written in the law to do them; if they offend in one point they are guilty of all; and the standard is perfection.

If you think you can do that then by all means try to do that. Of course, there is still your past to consider:

1Jo 1:10, If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I think that the only real solution is what is written elsewhere:

Rom 3:21, But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24, Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25, Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26, To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

I have now racked up over 3700 posts in this forum and I challenge you to find one sentence in that lot that even hints at what you are suggesting I am teaching by your quote above. Even in the passage of mine that you quoted above I said

What saves you is Christ's continuing ministry in the heavenly sanctuary from which He empowers you to live

So on reading that, how can you then presume to think I am teaching that one is saved by his obedience to the law? That said, I would challenge you to find a Bible passage that suggests you can be saved while disobeying the law.

 

[justbyfaith]

That said, I would challenge you to find a Bible passage that suggests you can be saved while disobeying the law.

Rom 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24, Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

I asked for a quote that forbade healing on the Sabbath. I am surprised , no, shocked you would stoop so low in that you are using the Pharisees' justification for persecuting Jesus as your own justification for throwing out the law.

Actually, John 5:17-18 relates John's assessment under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

 

[justbyfaith]

Also, I have not thrown out the law in the slightest; for I believe that we are still governed by it as believers; although we can no longer condemned by it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Wet Paint Principle (Freedom)

 

[brakelite]

Also, I have not thrown out the law in the slightest; for I believe that we are still governed by it as believers; although we can no longer condemned by it.

If you are governed by the law as you claim, then you must needs be subservient to the law. You are professing to be precisely what you are incorrectly claiming me to be... Having the law as your master. Yet I have Christ as my Governer and Master, who by His grace creates in me His righteousness... Not the righteousness which is by the law, but the righteousness which comes by faith through grace.

Rom 3:23, For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24, Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

This means to you that you are saved even while disobeying God? Surely you are mistaken. For shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid.

 

[bbyrd009]

Nehushtan has to do with making a physical idol out of the Cross.

you sound awful sure jbf. i don't know myself. So if you insist on Standing There I'm just gonna move on I guess ok

The scripture hath concluded

the Scripture hath concluded?
Jesus, time to run I guess

You need to give chapter and verse on this so that it can be looked at in its context; otherwise you have no ground to stand on in quoting it.

Ah no offense meant, I just natch assumed that someone who considers the Bible so central to their salvation would already know where that is. Google can help if you are having any trouble finding that fwiw.

 

[bbyrd009]

Imo the essential part--iow the part that will not be coming out here I guess--is that there is one way to Read that, but two ways to Read "Jesus died for my sins," stress on the imo bc I don't know, this is a theory, and if anyone has a valid refute or reflection on that I'd like to see it. Seems like the interp revolves around the meaning of "for," near as I can tell