The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[Johann]

Really, that what Paul is saying...that at last he reached the absolute standard of godhood, sinless in word, thought and deed, perfect as God is, perfect as you are?

Go pull the ear of someone else, not me, yes?
J.

I'll repent later.

 

[Johann]

Sinless perfection is where you are ignorant. Sinlessness comes with justification/sanctification when we are born again. We start at the first level of obedience, and obey our Spirit-filled conscience. Philippians 3:16. Then as we grow in the fruit of the Spirit the next level of obedience raises and we master it and remain sinless according to how God looks at sin. (Willful, unintentional) These levels of obedience continue during our lifetime towards perfection for the purpose of becoming like Christ. (Another belief you are ignorant of). Romans 8:29-30. Jesus was the first of many brethren. I am one of those brethren who you are implying is a heretic, who believe in sinlessness on the road to perfection in this lifetime, and refuse to sin. After the last new level of obedience is mastered we will never stumble.

@1stCenturyLady stay in your lane, and I in mine, and don't assume of what I am ignorant of, and what not....nice theory, go to Wesley...you are living in a fantasy world.
J.

1 John 1:8 is about those who don't think they sin so never seek Jesus nor confess their sin to BECOME a Spirit-filled Christian. There is a big difference between those who SAY they don't sin, and those who WALK in the Spirit.

This is not sound systematic theology at all...this is your eisegesis.
Go and look up the plural pronouns in 1 John 1.8.
John was ALREADY A SPIRIT FILLED SAINT!

The Word of Life
1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
Walking in the Light
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Don't tamper with the written word to "fit in" with your heretical teaching!
J.

 

[Lizbeth]

Most believers will never walk in the Spirit. This idea of a "saved" status has destroyed the race of faith for many. People are now taught that entering into the wilderness walk (by an initial grace) is all there is...no Promised Land on this side of eternity. Only those who are called by God into the high calling IN Christ..who have made their calling and election sure through becoming a servant as Jesus was...can hope to walk as Jesus walked, even for a brief time. Regardless, it is God who calls the shots.

Peace

I'm more and more convinced there has to be a Promised Land this side of heaven, since the Israelites entered it, and since it is entered by "faith", which they were even rebuked for not having, and which faith won't be a factor once we're dead....we'll be seeing face to face then. Until we enter it fully, we are only really tasting of it...."taste and see..." "if you have tasted the good things to come..."

Yes, I believe for sure Jesus and the apostles were not teaching us to sit on our laurels and take salvation for granted...but work out our salvation with fear and trembling...run the race so as to win it....there are warnings in scripture, eg, parable of the talents. In the end it is the Lord who will judge each soul individually.

This thought came to me on another thread this morning, but it might belong here more than there, so I'll just paste it:

I'm still taking things in and percolating a lot to do with this subject (slow at my age unfortunately), but it seems there are greater and lesser in the kingdom of heaven....even fully sanctified I am not sure everyone would all be "equal" in manifesting Christlikeness....being perfect/holy to God might be a relative term in the sense that "perfection" is relative to each individual's place and calling in the kingdom.....? The Holy Spirit giving His Spirit/grace/gifts severally as He wills from the get-go. (Hope I'm expressing this properly, if it's right.) But I believe we are all called to reach the full potential of whatever God has given to us, however humble our station.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Really, that what Paul is saying...that at last he reached the absolute standard of godhood, sinless in word, thought and deed, perfect as God is, perfect as you are?

Go pull the ear of someone else, not me, yes?
J.

You must be following some guru or something. It certainly isn't Christ.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

1 Peter 1:16 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So what do you believe 1 John 1:8 is saying?
Do you disagree with my interpretation?

Well, we must all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The theory that "sin is an illusion" sounds like a variation on the Gnostic teaching that sins of the flesh are not sins; the only sins are of the spirit. That will cause a Gnostic to say they have no sin, and won't discern they are lying to themselves.

But 1 John 1:9 is the same concept of Acts 2:38. It is for the purpose of becoming born again of the Spirit, and empowered with the indwelling all-powerful God who made the universe inside of us. He is how we shall be holy as Jesus is holy. Without being born again of the Spirit we don't even belong to Christ no matter how many times we sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent...

What I showed you is how to search for what the Apostle means, not our own private interpretation. Otherwise, our navigation will be off and we could wind up in another country, like "we will always sin as long as we are in these bodies." That lie is the basis for many doctrines of demons in the Church today. Don't you agree?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, we must all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The theory that "sin is an illusion" sounds like a variation on the Gnostic teaching that sins of the flesh are not sins; the only sins are of the spirit. That will cause a Gnostic to say they have no sin, and won't discern they are lying to themselves.

But 1 John 1:9 is the same concept of Acts 2:38. It is for the purpose of becoming born again of the Spirit, and empowered with the indwelling all-powerful God who made the universe inside of us. He is how we shall be holy as Jesus is holy. Without being born again of the Spirit we don't even belong to Christ no matter how many times we sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent...

What I showed you is how to search for what the Apostle means, not our own private interpretation. Otherwise, our navigation will be off and we could wind up in another country, like "we will always sin as long as we are in these bodies." That lie is the basis for many doctrines of demons in the Church today. Don't you agree?

I believe that when a person accepts Christ or believes on Him for salvation they are born again spiritually. This happened to me back in 1992. I used to be an atheist and then by God’s Word I was changed radically and I had a love, joy, and peace I had never known before. I did it complete 180. John 1:12 says “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”. A son of God is a person who is born again. So if we receive Jesus or we believe on his name we are born again spiritually. Now, Christians DO need to crucify the old man and the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). 2 Corinthians 7:1 describes this as a process. It says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

[marks]

The question, then, is "Does God actually give this second work of Grace?"

Some testify to having experienced this second work of Grace, if only for limited periods of time. I have not, but I must concede that "With God, all things are possible".

I think at least part of the issue is that someone receives something from God, perhaps a time of sanctification, and then goes on to make doctrine based on their experience. If we cannot weigh our experiences solely by the Bible then we may end up in the weeds.

And then there are those who claim sinlessness, but only because they've redefined sin to allow their claim.

Much love!

 

[bbyrd009]

God's Righteousness is God's standard.
Only God can meet it.
The law and commandments were given to you, to show you that you can't do it.....and this knowledge leads you to the CROSS where God can give you HIS Righteousness.

See, to accept a HUMAN, fallen, sinful.....God has to give you His righteousness, so that He can accept you

This is why God as Christ died on the Cross.
Its to deal with your sin, and to provide you with God's Righteousness.

WELCOME TO SALVATION !! = its "the GIFT of RIGHTEOUSNESS".

3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.
4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship (its like this and like that and like this?). So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

[marks]

I think regarding what John wrote, that there is a difference between "having" sin and "committing" sin. Sin dwells in our members, our physical body including our carnal minds, which will not be done away with until our bodies die. But that doesn't have to mean we necessarily have to "commit" sin. We are called to be perfect/holy as God is perfect/holy. We're also called to put on the "new man" = Christ and His nature/spirit, who is without sin....AKA walk in the spirit. And we're called to overcome....Jesus said he who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death and will sit on His throne with Him. The author of Hebrews wrote that we are to leave the foundational things and go on to perfection....so we want to make God's standard our goal and aim for the prize! Nothing is impossible with God! Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness....

I agree. By faith we are able to "walk above" that corrupt old man. It doesn't mean we go around declaring ourselves "sinless", that is for Jesus to do, not ourselves.

And I'm not sitting here saying I'm sinless "except for mayby something I'm not aware of", that's not it at all! But I believe that we are able to live that way in the power of Christ, as our minds are renewed, and/or as God gives the gift of faith to do so.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

And then there are those who claim sinlessness, but only because they've redefined sin to allow their claim.

Much love!

Part of the issue is the paradox of 1 John 3:1-2 and 1 John 3:9. You are a Child of God, and a Child of God is not able to sin. If you take that as a statement of fact about yourself now rather than a challenge to live a righteous and holy life, then if/when you do sin, you have to either deny you sinned, or re-identify yourself as a child of the devil who's going to Hell. Nobody wants to go through that psychological reorientation.

"You wouldn't be so shocked at your own sin if you didn't have such a high opinion of yourself!" I wish I could remember who said that.

 

[Lambano]

If there is a "second outworking of Grace", to whom does God give such Grace? Is it a earned by sustained human effort to live righteously? But then it would be Reward, not Grace. Is it then a spiritual gift, like tongues or healing or prophesy, given sovereignly to whomever God chooses?

 

[Johann]

Part of the issue is the paradox of 1 John 3:1-2 and 1 John 3:9. You are a Child of God, and a Child of God is not able to sin. If you take that as a statement of fact about yourself now rather than a challenge to live a righteous and holy life, then if/when you do sin, you have to either deny you sinned, or re-identify yourself as a child of the devil who's going to Hell. Nobody wants to go through that psychological reorientation.

"You wouldn't be so shocked at your own sin if you didn't have such a high opinion of yourself!" I wish I could remember who said that.

[Stephen Brown, No More Mr. Nice Guy!

 

[Taken]

The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism​

OP^

Perfection does NOT stand ALONE nor is Heresy IN PROPER CONTEXT.

From the Beginning of mankind........Scriptural teaching IS a natural man IS “imperfect” “corrupt” “Sinful” (ie. AGAINST the Lord God)

God Offered Hebrew/Tribesmen (all today called Jews), an ORDER and WAY to become “MADE” forgiven, wholly, whole, holy ....
IF...they BELIEVED in God “while Alive in their Flesh Body” TO “the Day of Death of their Flesh Body”.......They THEN “would be MADE wholly, whole, holy”.

THAT Offering, expressly given the Jews, ALSO applied to ANY Gentile who BELIEVED and DID as the Jews DID.

THAT Offering, IS Gods WORKS in a faithful man....AFTER a faithful man’s natural Bodily Death......and Continues to THIS DAY.

From the Day of Jesus’ presence Sent to Earth......Scriptural teaching IS the same, regarding “a natural man”.

A NEW OFFERING was given mankind.....First to the Jews....Thereafter to the Gentiles......(ie. ALL of mankind from that day to this day and forward to the “unknown” day God “closes the entrance door” and God sends His causing Tribulations and Destruction upon this corrupt earth and it’s inhabitants.)

The NEW OFFERING, IS any man Giving “his word of TRUE Heartful Repentance FOR having HAD Disbelief (ie His SIN) “AND” his word of TRUE Heartful Confession OF Belief IN the Lord God”.

THAT “TESTIMONIAL word” of an individual man....IS the “method” by which that man “REVEALS “to” the Lord God...
*** His absolute belief, faith, Love OF the Lord God and the mans WILLINGNESS “to Give his own Flesh Body unto Death” ... FOR his belief, faith, love of the Lord God...and that mans true Desire to Forever BE WITH the Lord God Almighty.

A man “ACCEPTANCE” of “THAT” Offering of God...
EFFECTS....that mans BECOMES “MADE” forgiven.
EFFECTS....that mans soul BECOMES “MADE” saved.
EFFECTS....that mans spirit BECOMES “MADE” quickened (ie Born Again of Gods Seed).
EFFECTS....that mans promised bodily death...SHALL BE sealed ONLY unto the Lord God.
EFFECTS....that man “continues living Alive in his natural flesh body”....
WHILE.... spiritually that man “LIVES IN Christ Jesus’ PERFECT wholly, whole, holy Risen Body”. AND the Spirit of God (Christ), LIVES IN that mans body.”

Is that mans BODY......sinless? No.
Is that mans BODILY sin......forgiven? Yes
Does God Continue to “SEE” the multitude of SIN in that mans BODY? No.
Why not?
Because Gods Spirit IS PURE LIGHT.
Because Gods Spirit “IN” a man OVERCOMES, COVERS, ALL sin (ie darkness) in that mans body, THAT which effects God can NO LONGER SEE sin IN that mans Body.
A mans forgiven, overcome, covered, unseen sin......IS no longer REMEMBERED by God.

Any man WHO HAS “accepted” the Lord Gods Offering to BE MADE:
Forgiven, INDWELT with Gods Spirit....IS once and forever forgiven, with the Lord God and Kept with the Lord God.......BY THE EXPRESS POWER of God.

IS that man “PERFECT” ? No.
IS that man “IN Christ” ? Yes.
IS Christ “IN that man”? Yes.
IS that man “PERFECT-ED” “IN Christ”? Yes.

Shall that man’s BODY “become MADE “a new”...... “PERFECT, SINLESS, UNCORRUPTED”? Yes.
WHEN?
** ON the (unknown) DAY, the Power of God RAISES that BODY UP “IN” a perfect, sinless, uncorrupted BODY....called being made;
Raised “IN” Glory.

IN CONTEXT:

Are there “PERFECT, SINLESS” body’s of men currently walking about this earth? No.

Are there “PERFECTED” “FORGIVEN” “COVERED” body’s of men “IN CHRIST” currently walking about this earth? Yes.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Johann]

The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism​

OP^

Perfection does NOT stand ALONE nor is Heresy IN PROPER CONTEXT.

From the Beginning of mankind........Scriptural teaching IS a natural man IS “imperfect” “corrupt” “Sinful” (ie. AGAINST the Lord God)

God Offered Hebrew/Tribesmen (all today called Jews), an ORDER and WAY to become “MADE” forgiven, wholly, whole, holy ....
IF...they BELIEVED in God “while Alive in their Flesh Body” TO “the Day of Death of their Flesh Body”.......They THEN “would be MADE wholly, whole, holy”.

THAT Offering, expressly given the Jews, ALSO applied to ANY Gentile who BELIEVED and DID as the Jews DID.

THAT Offering, IS Gods WORKS in a faithful man....AFTER a faithful man’s natural Bodily Death......and Continues to THIS DAY.

From the Day of Jesus’ presence Sent to Earth......Scriptural teaching IS the same, regarding “a natural man”.

A NEW OFFERING was given mankind.....First to the Jews....Thereafter to the Gentiles......(ie. ALL of mankind from that day to this day and forward to the “unknown” day God “closes the entrance door” and God sends His causing Tribulations and Destruction upon this corrupt earth and it’s inhabitants.)

The NEW OFFERING, IS any man Giving “his word of TRUE Heartful Repentance FOR having HAD Disbelief (ie His SIN) “AND” his word of TRUE Heartful Confession OF Belief IN the Lord God”.

THAT “TESTIMONIAL word” of an individual man....IS the “method” by which that man “REVEALS “to” the Lord God...
*** His absolute belief, faith, Love OF the Lord God and the mans WILLINGNESS “to Give his own Flesh Body unto Death” ... FOR his belief, faith, love of the Lord God...and that mans true Desire to Forever BE WITH the Lord God Almighty.

A man “ACCEPTANCE” of “THAT” Offering of God...
EFFECTS....that mans BECOMES “MADE” forgiven.
EFFECTS....that mans soul BECOMES “MADE” saved.
EFFECTS....that mans spirit BECOMES “MADE” quickened (ie Born Again of Gods Seed).
EFFECTS....that mans promised bodily death...SHALL BE sealed ONLY unto the Lord God.
EFFECTS....that man “continues living Alive in his natural flesh body”....
WHILE.... spiritually that man “LIVES IN Christ Jesus’ PERFECT wholly, whole, holy Risen Body”. AND the Spirit of God (Christ), LIVES IN that mans body.”

Is that mans BODY......sinless? No.
Is that mans BODILY sin......forgiven? Yes
Does God Continue to “SEE” the multitude of SIN in that mans BODY? No.
Why not?
Because Gods Spirit IS PURE LIGHT.
Because Gods Spirit “IN” a man OVERCOMES, COVERS, ALL sin (ie darkness) in that mans body, THAT which effects God can NO LONGER SEE sin IN that mans Body.
A mans forgiven, overcome, covered, unseen sin......IS no longer REMEMBERED by God.

Any man WHO HAS “accepted” the Lord Gods Offering to BE MADE:
Forgiven, INDWELT with Gods Spirit....IS once and forever forgiven, with the Lord God and Kept with the Lord God.......BY THE EXPRESS POWER of God.

IS that man “PERFECT” ? No.
IS that man “IN Christ” ? Yes.
IS Christ “IN that man”? Yes.
IS that man “PERFECT-ED” “IN Christ”? Yes.

Shall that man’s BODY “become MADE “a new”...... “PERFECT, SINLESS, UNCORRUPTED”? Yes.
WHEN?
** ON the (unknown) DAY, the Power of God RAISES that BODY UP “IN” a perfect, sinless, uncorrupted BODY....called being made;
Raised “IN” Glory.

IN CONTEXT:

Are there “PERFECT, SINLESS” body’s of men currently walking about this earth? No.

Are there “PERFECTED” “FORGIVEN” “COVERED” body’s of men “IN CHRIST” currently walking about this earth? Yes.

Glory to God,
Taken

Appreciate the work and effort @Taken
J.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I believe that when a person accepts Christ or believes on Him for salvation they are born again spiritually. This happened to me back in 1992. I used to be an atheist and then by God’s Word I was changed radically and I had a love, joy, and peace I had never known before. I did it complete 180. John 1:12 says “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”. A son of God is a person who is born again. So if we receive Jesus or we believe on his name we are born again spiritually. Now, Christians DO need to crucify the old man and the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). 2 Corinthians 7:1 describes this as a process. It says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Yes, It is a process. There are levels of obedience that we are accountable for to God. Those who are truly His live up to the level they are at. Philippians 3:16. But we strive to keep growing, never settling on less that perfect as we continuously walk in the Spirit. And as 1 John 1:7 says anything less than perfection is forgiven and cleansed as long as we are walking in the Spirit and doing those things we know we should do, like forgiving one another to keep in fellowship. 2 Peter 1:5-7 are the names of those levels. Verses 10-11 tell us that if we do those levels, we will never sin, and our entrance into heaven is assured.

 

[marks]

Part of the issue is the paradox of 1 John 3:1-2 and 1 John 3:9. You are a Child of God, and a Child of God is not able to sin. If you take that as a statement of fact about yourself now rather than a challenge to live a righteous and holy life, then if/when you do sin, you have to either deny you sinned, or re-identify yourself as a child of the devil who's going to Hell. Nobody wants to go through that psychological reorientation.

"You wouldn't be so shocked at your own sin if you didn't have such a high opinion of yourself!" I wish I could remember who said that.

These passages combine with Romans 6-7 to show us that the Adamic creature is still there, still active, and the New Creation being, the spirit child of God, is who we are in reality. We are spirit beings alive in the celestial realm, only, we inhabit these bodies of the Adamic man as our means of being in this world.

Sin lives in the flesh because the flesh is corrupt - damaged, ruined. It hungers for sinful things. It plots ways to obtain such. The mind of the flesh.

You can see this in your own mind, when streams of thoughts flow through the mind, our "stream of consciousness". Bitter and sweet do not flow from the same fountain. When your thoughts are of wrong desires, of faithless emotions, like that, this is not the new creation who was created patterned after God is righteousness and true holiness.

When you choose to override these thoughts and feelings and choose righteousness, and praise, and prayer, and holy meditations, like that, this is not from flesh, this is the mind of Christ.

I think of this like I'm driving a wrecked car. At first I'm inexperienced as it pulls to the side, won't brake, and so on, and get in lot's of crashes. But I learn to work with it, steering hard to the other side, not going too fast, learning to control it, and manage to make some headway. But if I relax my grip, it lurches left, and crashes.

Or like I'm in a wagon pulled by a wild animal. If I'm to get anywhere, that animal is going to pull me. But if I lose control of that animal, it can cause a LOT of damage. I'm responsible for controlling that animal, and I need to, for my sake and everyone else. And I'm told I CAN control that animal, but it's hard, and it takes work.

That car is not me, and that animal is not me, but I'm the driver, I'm the trainer, I am responsible. Therefore now it is no longer I, but sin that lives in me. There has been a separation.

The lines are blurred because we're used to being that old man. We clarify the lines by learning the Scriptures, and by seeing how the Spirit changes us inside. Seeing that new stream of consciousness, learning what it is, the Spirit, and learning to choose it over the sinful stream.

To be continued . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

If there is a "second outworking of Grace", to whom does God give such Grace? Is it a earned by sustained human effort to live righteously? But then it would be Reward, not Grace. Is it then a spiritual gift, like tongues or healing or prophesy, given sovereignly to whomever God chooses?

I believe our life is lived by faith. That we have all we have through faith in Jesus, and that if we lack, we are either lacking in faith, or awaiting our King's good pleasure.

I'm going to try to be brief, please forgive me if I lose you . . . feel free to ask me anything.

I've struggled throughout my life against the damage left from a destructive childhood, and my analogy of a "wrecked car", mine barely drives at all! Several years ago, in one of those times of abject desolation after failing in some of that struggle, I turned to the Bible for something from God, opened it, and read Psalm 129,

Psalms 129:1-4 KJV
1) A Song of degrees. Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth, may Israel now say:
2) Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth: yet they have not prevailed against me.
3) The plowers plowed upon my back: they made long their furrows.

As so often is the case, the words were straight into my soul, except I felt they HAD prevailed against me, and now I was ruined. They afflicted me . . . they deepened their furrows . . . they carved their hate and anger and worse into me . . .

4) The LORD is righteous: he hath cut asunder the cords of the wicked.

As I read the word "cut", cut the cord of the wicked, it was like something in my heart just fell away into the darkness and was gone. I felt different. I sat there wondering what just happened? I felt clean. I was afraid to hope. So I went to bed knowing that time will tell all things.

After about 3 days I was convinced. God did something amazing. I told my wife at one point it was as it I was the man I would have been had none of that ever happened. I think this is exemplary of what can happen. I was looking at my experience and drawing the wrong conclusion.

There way not a single peep from my flesh, nor was there any hesitation or question of what I should do, as I went on to walk in the Spirit continuously for about 5 or so weeks time. Love and communion with God and others, and I'm not saying I didn't sin in those days, only that I never really thought about sin, I just knew I was doing what pleased God.

I think what actually had happened was that God gave me a gift of faith to trust in Jesus for my reconciliation so completely that I was living free from law and free from sin.

Not too many days before it ended I was praying, talking with God about that one fly in the ointment . . . Derek. My friend Derek, he suffered depression, and other things. I'd related to him from the moment we met, and now, all I could tell him, Hey, I'm better, and I hope God "does it" for you too! But I wanted to share this! Yes, I love living this way, only, I want to share it! But I'm not God, and I can't "impart" this gift!

And just as I saw the moment it began, so I saw the moment it ended, the flesh returned, the struggle returned, but, now I knew something. I knew what it was like. I knew God could do this. But it ended.

After a while I began to think think that God had withdrawn His gift for the purpose that I would learn to live that faith, and then having done so, be able to teach others.

But then not too many months later, I learned some things about myself, my "condition", that triggered a very dark and deep depression that lasted about 5 weeks. And this previous experience gave me something to hold on to.

So why did it happen? I don't know, but I have an idea.

To be continued . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

If there is a "second outworking of Grace", to whom does God give such Grace? Is it a earned by sustained human effort to live righteously? But then it would be Reward, not Grace.

God intends that we should become like Him, in holiness and righteousness. That somehow it's better if we are participating in that.

Paul wrote implying that the Gospel was laid on him as a command, and therefore there was no reward to preaching the Gospel, rather, woe to him if he doesn't! So he made it his practice to support himself and his team, to share the Gospel without charge.

God gives me His Spirit Who empowers me to live holy, but His desire for me is to reach out myself and apprehend what He has given. Not to just turn my life into a proper painting, but to let me hold the brush, let me apply the stroke, let me become the artist. I'm His art, but my life is also my art.

2 Corinthians 3:18 KJV
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Beholding in a glass is looking in a mirror. As we see God's glory reflected in us we are changed into His image, literally "out of glory into glory", His becomes ours.

I've come to be fully assured of God's love for me as I see Him working in me. What He's done with me, these are things that only someone who loves me does.

I didn't come to know that in the bright and merry times, it was in the dark and hopeless times. When in another of those abject and tormented moments, when I opened my Bible to Isaiah 44, my heart sinking deeper and deeper until that culminating line,

Isaiah 44:20 KJV
He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

I remember reading this, the words again a arrow to my soul, the words of my hopelessness. I was afraid to turn the page, to see what came next,

Isaiah 44:21-22 KJV
21) Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.
22) I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

I learned love for God through Isaiah.

Isaiah 44:23 KJV
23) Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

My love for God has come not through the release from sin, though that be a wonderful thing! But the reality is, my love for God, my hope in Him, has come as I've seen His love for me in my dark times, as I've learned He truly loves me no matter what. And whatever darkness come into my life, that is His message to me, "return to Me, for I have redeemed you."

My thinking is that this gift of faith was given to convince me of what is possible, to give me something to get through that coming depression, more besides.

. . . still to be continued . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

Is it a earned by sustained human effort to live righteously? But then it would be Reward, not Grace.

What I've found is that while I consider the guilt of my sin, more sin results. When I consider the righteousness of Christ imparted to me, righteousness results.

Romans 7:5 KJV
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Trusting fully in Jesus having reconciled me to God means there isn't Law producing the motions of sin in my members, that is, body parts.

Law provokes the flesh to sin. Being dead to the Law removes that provocation. Thinking along the lines that we are now under law is thinking from the flesh mind. If we start to think that way, the battle is already being lost. We are no longer condemned being in Christ. Thinking otherwise is not spirit.

Thinking in terms that we are accepted based on our behavior is to put ourselves under a law of our own making, and puts the responsibility on ourselves to qualify for communion with God. In truth we are qualified in Christ, and not our behavior.

Rather than thinking I have to "clean up" to commune with God, communion with God is what cleans me up. For me the most effective way to strive against sin is to strive to enter His rest of no condemnation, all works completed, just as God completed His works, and rested. I no longer work to be accepted. I am accepted in Christ.

The pressure is off, there is no guilt or shame to hinder me from a continuing trust in Jesus that He will be living in me, empowering me to serve Him well, causing me to be loving and safe.

Sorry for so many words! You asked some questions very near to my heart!

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

These passages combine with Romans 6-7 to show us that the Adamic creature is still there, still active, and the New Creation being, the spirit child of God, is who we are in reality. We are spirit beings alive in the celestial realm, only, we inhabit these bodies of the Adamic man as our means of being in this world.

Sin lives in the flesh because the flesh is corrupt - damaged, ruined. It hungers for sinful things. It plots ways to obtain such. The mind of the flesh.

You can see this in your own mind, when streams of thoughts flow through the mind, our "stream of consciousness". Bitter and sweet do not flow from the same fountain. When your thoughts are of wrong desires, of faithless emotions, like that, this is not the new creation who was created patterned after God is righteousness and true holiness.

When you choose to override these thoughts and feelings and choose righteousness, and praise, and prayer, and holy meditations, like that, this is not from flesh, this is the mind of Christ.

I think of this like I'm driving a wrecked car. At first I'm inexperienced as it pulls to the side, won't brake, and so on, and get in lot's of crashes. But I learn to work with it, steering hard to the other side, not going too fast, learning to control it, and manage to make some headway. But if I relax my grip, it lurches left, and crashes.

Or like I'm in a wagon pulled by a wild animal. If I'm to get anywhere, that animal is going to pull me. But if I lose control of that animal, it can cause a LOT of damage. I'm responsible for controlling that animal, and I need to, for my sake and everyone else. And I'm told I CAN control that animal, but it's hard, and it takes work.

That car is not me, and that animal is not me, but I'm the driver, I'm the trainer, I am responsible. Therefore now it is no longer I, but sin that lives in me. There has been a separation.

The lines are blurred because we're used to being that old man. We clarify the lines by learning the Scriptures, and by seeing how the Spirit changes us inside. Seeing that new stream of consciousness, learning what it is, the Spirit, and learning to choose it over the sinful stream.

To be continued . . .

Much love!

The idea I see it is if we fix that car so that it will not be a problem for us. Unfortunately, some think the car is unfixable in this life. But the Bible testifies we can suffer from the flesh and cease from sin (1 Peter 4:1-2). Scripture says we can cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). God’s Word shows us that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).