I'll repent later.Really, that what Paul is saying...that at last he reached the absolute standard of godhood, sinless in word, thought and deed, perfect as God is, perfect as you are?
Go pull the ear of someone else, not me, yes?
J.
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
I'll repent later.Really, that what Paul is saying...that at last he reached the absolute standard of godhood, sinless in word, thought and deed, perfect as God is, perfect as you are?
Go pull the ear of someone else, not me, yes?
J.
@1stCenturyLady stay in your lane, and I in mine, and don't assume of what I am ignorant of, and what not....nice theory, go to Wesley...you are living in a fantasy world.Sinless perfection is where you are ignorant. Sinlessness comes with justification/sanctification when we are born again. We start at the first level of obedience, and obey our Spirit-filled conscience. Philippians 3:16. Then as we grow in the fruit of the Spirit the next level of obedience raises and we master it and remain sinless according to how God looks at sin. (Willful, unintentional) These levels of obedience continue during our lifetime towards perfection for the purpose of becoming like Christ. (Another belief you are ignorant of). Romans 8:29-30. Jesus was the first of many brethren. I am one of those brethren who you are implying is a heretic, who believe in sinlessness on the road to perfection in this lifetime, and refuse to sin. After the last new level of obedience is mastered we will never stumble.
This is not sound systematic theology at all...this is your eisegesis.1 John 1:8 is about those who don't think they sin so never seek Jesus nor confess their sin to BECOME a Spirit-filled Christian. There is a big difference between those who SAY they don't sin, and those who WALK in the Spirit.
I'm more and more convinced there has to be a Promised Land this side of heaven, since the Israelites entered it, and since it is entered by "faith", which they were even rebuked for not having, and which faith won't be a factor once we're dead....we'll be seeing face to face then. Until we enter it fully, we are only really tasting of it...."taste and see..." "if you have tasted the good things to come..."Most believers will never walk in the Spirit. This idea of a "saved" status has destroyed the race of faith for many. People are now taught that entering into the wilderness walk (by an initial grace) is all there is...no Promised Land on this side of eternity. Only those who are called by God into the high calling IN Christ..who have made their calling and election sure through becoming a servant as Jesus was...can hope to walk as Jesus walked, even for a brief time. Regardless, it is God who calls the shots.
Peace
You must be following some guru or something. It certainly isn't Christ.Really, that what Paul is saying...that at last he reached the absolute standard of godhood, sinless in word, thought and deed, perfect as God is, perfect as you are?
Go pull the ear of someone else, not me, yes?
J.
Well, we must all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The theory that "sin is an illusion" sounds like a variation on the Gnostic teaching that sins of the flesh are not sins; the only sins are of the spirit. That will cause a Gnostic to say they have no sin, and won't discern they are lying to themselves.So what do you believe 1 John 1:8 is saying?
Do you disagree with my interpretation?
I believe that when a person accepts Christ or believes on Him for salvation they are born again spiritually. This happened to me back in 1992. I used to be an atheist and then by God’s Word I was changed radically and I had a love, joy, and peace I had never known before. I did it complete 180. John 1:12 says “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”. A son of God is a person who is born again. So if we receive Jesus or we believe on his name we are born again spiritually. Now, Christians DO need to crucify the old man and the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). 2 Corinthians 7:1 describes this as a process. It says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.Well, we must all work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The theory that "sin is an illusion" sounds like a variation on the Gnostic teaching that sins of the flesh are not sins; the only sins are of the spirit. That will cause a Gnostic to say they have no sin, and won't discern they are lying to themselves.
But 1 John 1:9 is the same concept of Acts 2:38. It is for the purpose of becoming born again of the Spirit, and empowered with the indwelling all-powerful God who made the universe inside of us. He is how we shall be holy as Jesus is holy. Without being born again of the Spirit we don't even belong to Christ no matter how many times we sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent...
What I showed you is how to search for what the Apostle means, not our own private interpretation. Otherwise, our navigation will be off and we could wind up in another country, like "we will always sin as long as we are in these bodies." That lie is the basis for many doctrines of demons in the Church today. Don't you agree?
I think at least part of the issue is that someone receives something from God, perhaps a time of sanctification, and then goes on to make doctrine based on their experience. If we cannot weigh our experiences solely by the Bible then we may end up in the weeds.The question, then, is "Does God actually give this second work of Grace?"
Some testify to having experienced this second work of Grace, if only for limited periods of time. I have not, but I must concede that "With God, all things are possible".
3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.God's Righteousness is God's standard.
Only God can meet it.
The law and commandments were given to you, to show you that you can't do it.....and this knowledge leads you to the CROSS where God can give you HIS Righteousness.
See, to accept a HUMAN, fallen, sinful.....God has to give you His righteousness, so that He can accept you
This is why God as Christ died on the Cross.
Its to deal with your sin, and to provide you with God's Righteousness.
WELCOME TO SALVATION !! = its "the GIFT of RIGHTEOUSNESS".
I agree. By faith we are able to "walk above" that corrupt old man. It doesn't mean we go around declaring ourselves "sinless", that is for Jesus to do, not ourselves.I think regarding what John wrote, that there is a difference between "having" sin and "committing" sin. Sin dwells in our members, our physical body including our carnal minds, which will not be done away with until our bodies die. But that doesn't have to mean we necessarily have to "commit" sin. We are called to be perfect/holy as God is perfect/holy. We're also called to put on the "new man" = Christ and His nature/spirit, who is without sin....AKA walk in the spirit. And we're called to overcome....Jesus said he who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death and will sit on His throne with Him. The author of Hebrews wrote that we are to leave the foundational things and go on to perfection....so we want to make God's standard our goal and aim for the prize! Nothing is impossible with God! Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness....
Part of the issue is the paradox of 1 John 3:1-2 and 1 John 3:9. You are a Child of God, and a Child of God is not able to sin. If you take that as a statement of fact about yourself now rather than a challenge to live a righteous and holy life, then if/when you do sin, you have to either deny you sinned, or re-identify yourself as a child of the devil who's going to Hell. Nobody wants to go through that psychological reorientation.And then there are those who claim sinlessness, but only because they've redefined sin to allow their claim.
Much love!
[Stephen Brown, No More Mr. Nice Guy!Part of the issue is the paradox of 1 John 3:1-2 and 1 John 3:9. You are a Child of God, and a Child of God is not able to sin. If you take that as a statement of fact about yourself now rather than a challenge to live a righteous and holy life, then if/when you do sin, you have to either deny you sinned, or re-identify yourself as a child of the devil who's going to Hell. Nobody wants to go through that psychological reorientation.
"You wouldn't be so shocked at your own sin if you didn't have such a high opinion of yourself!" I wish I could remember who said that.
Appreciate the work and effort @TakenThe Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism
OP^
Perfection does NOT stand ALONE nor is Heresy IN PROPER CONTEXT.
From the Beginning of mankind........Scriptural teaching IS a natural man IS “imperfect” “corrupt” “Sinful” (ie. AGAINST the Lord God)
God Offered Hebrew/Tribesmen (all today called Jews), an ORDER and WAY to become “MADE” forgiven, wholly, whole, holy ....
IF...they BELIEVED in God “while Alive in their Flesh Body” TO “the Day of Death of their Flesh Body”.......They THEN “would be MADE wholly, whole, holy”.
THAT Offering, expressly given the Jews, ALSO applied to ANY Gentile who BELIEVED and DID as the Jews DID.
THAT Offering, IS Gods WORKS in a faithful man....AFTER a faithful man’s natural Bodily Death......and Continues to THIS DAY.
From the Day of Jesus’ presence Sent to Earth......Scriptural teaching IS the same, regarding “a natural man”.
A NEW OFFERING was given mankind.....First to the Jews....Thereafter to the Gentiles......(ie. ALL of mankind from that day to this day and forward to the “unknown” day God “closes the entrance door” and God sends His causing Tribulations and Destruction upon this corrupt earth and it’s inhabitants.)
The NEW OFFERING, IS any man Giving “his word of TRUE Heartful Repentance FOR having HAD Disbelief (ie His SIN) “AND” his word of TRUE Heartful Confession OF Belief IN the Lord God”.
THAT “TESTIMONIAL word” of an individual man....IS the “method” by which that man “REVEALS “to” the Lord God...
*** His absolute belief, faith, Love OF the Lord God and the mans WILLINGNESS “to Give his own Flesh Body unto Death” ... FOR his belief, faith, love of the Lord God...and that mans true Desire to Forever BE WITH the Lord God Almighty.
A man “ACCEPTANCE” of “THAT” Offering of God...
EFFECTS....that mans BECOMES “MADE” forgiven.
EFFECTS....that mans soul BECOMES “MADE” saved.
EFFECTS....that mans spirit BECOMES “MADE” quickened (ie Born Again of Gods Seed).
EFFECTS....that mans promised bodily death...SHALL BE sealed ONLY unto the Lord God.
EFFECTS....that man “continues living Alive in his natural flesh body”....
WHILE.... spiritually that man “LIVES IN Christ Jesus’ PERFECT wholly, whole, holy Risen Body”. AND the Spirit of God (Christ), LIVES IN that mans body.”
Is that mans BODY......sinless? No.
Is that mans BODILY sin......forgiven? Yes
Does God Continue to “SEE” the multitude of SIN in that mans BODY? No.
Why not?
Because Gods Spirit IS PURE LIGHT.
Because Gods Spirit “IN” a man OVERCOMES, COVERS, ALL sin (ie darkness) in that mans body, THAT which effects God can NO LONGER SEE sin IN that mans Body.
A mans forgiven, overcome, covered, unseen sin......IS no longer REMEMBERED by God.
Any man WHO HAS “accepted” the Lord Gods Offering to BE MADE:
Forgiven, INDWELT with Gods Spirit....IS once and forever forgiven, with the Lord God and Kept with the Lord God.......BY THE EXPRESS POWER of God.
IS that man “PERFECT” ? No.
IS that man “IN Christ” ? Yes.
IS Christ “IN that man”? Yes.
IS that man “PERFECT-ED” “IN Christ”? Yes.
Shall that man’s BODY “become MADE “a new”...... “PERFECT, SINLESS, UNCORRUPTED”? Yes.
WHEN?
** ON the (unknown) DAY, the Power of God RAISES that BODY UP “IN” a perfect, sinless, uncorrupted BODY....called being made;
Raised “IN” Glory.
IN CONTEXT:
Are there “PERFECT, SINLESS” body’s of men currently walking about this earth? No.
Are there “PERFECTED” “FORGIVEN” “COVERED” body’s of men “IN CHRIST” currently walking about this earth? Yes.
Glory to God,
Taken
I believe that when a person accepts Christ or believes on Him for salvation they are born again spiritually. This happened to me back in 1992. I used to be an atheist and then by God’s Word I was changed radically and I had a love, joy, and peace I had never known before. I did it complete 180. John 1:12 says “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”. A son of God is a person who is born again. So if we receive Jesus or we believe on his name we are born again spiritually. Now, Christians DO need to crucify the old man and the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). 2 Corinthians 7:1 describes this as a process. It says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
These passages combine with Romans 6-7 to show us that the Adamic creature is still there, still active, and the New Creation being, the spirit child of God, is who we are in reality. We are spirit beings alive in the celestial realm, only, we inhabit these bodies of the Adamic man as our means of being in this world.Part of the issue is the paradox of 1 John 3:1-2 and 1 John 3:9. You are a Child of God, and a Child of God is not able to sin. If you take that as a statement of fact about yourself now rather than a challenge to live a righteous and holy life, then if/when you do sin, you have to either deny you sinned, or re-identify yourself as a child of the devil who's going to Hell. Nobody wants to go through that psychological reorientation.
"You wouldn't be so shocked at your own sin if you didn't have such a high opinion of yourself!" I wish I could remember who said that.
I believe our life is lived by faith. That we have all we have through faith in Jesus, and that if we lack, we are either lacking in faith, or awaiting our King's good pleasure.If there is a "second outworking of Grace", to whom does God give such Grace? Is it a earned by sustained human effort to live righteously? But then it would be Reward, not Grace. Is it then a spiritual gift, like tongues or healing or prophesy, given sovereignly to whomever God chooses?
God intends that we should become like Him, in holiness and righteousness. That somehow it's better if we are participating in that.If there is a "second outworking of Grace", to whom does God give such Grace? Is it a earned by sustained human effort to live righteously? But then it would be Reward, not Grace.
What I've found is that while I consider the guilt of my sin, more sin results. When I consider the righteousness of Christ imparted to me, righteousness results.Is it a earned by sustained human effort to live righteously? But then it would be Reward, not Grace.
The idea I see it is if we fix that car so that it will not be a problem for us. Unfortunately, some think the car is unfixable in this life. But the Bible testifies we can suffer from the flesh and cease from sin (1 Peter 4:1-2). Scripture says we can cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). God’s Word shows us that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).These passages combine with Romans 6-7 to show us that the Adamic creature is still there, still active, and the New Creation being, the spirit child of God, is who we are in reality. We are spirit beings alive in the celestial realm, only, we inhabit these bodies of the Adamic man as our means of being in this world.
Sin lives in the flesh because the flesh is corrupt - damaged, ruined. It hungers for sinful things. It plots ways to obtain such. The mind of the flesh.
You can see this in your own mind, when streams of thoughts flow through the mind, our "stream of consciousness". Bitter and sweet do not flow from the same fountain. When your thoughts are of wrong desires, of faithless emotions, like that, this is not the new creation who was created patterned after God is righteousness and true holiness.
When you choose to override these thoughts and feelings and choose righteousness, and praise, and prayer, and holy meditations, like that, this is not from flesh, this is the mind of Christ.
I think of this like I'm driving a wrecked car. At first I'm inexperienced as it pulls to the side, won't brake, and so on, and get in lot's of crashes. But I learn to work with it, steering hard to the other side, not going too fast, learning to control it, and manage to make some headway. But if I relax my grip, it lurches left, and crashes.
Or like I'm in a wagon pulled by a wild animal. If I'm to get anywhere, that animal is going to pull me. But if I lose control of that animal, it can cause a LOT of damage. I'm responsible for controlling that animal, and I need to, for my sake and everyone else. And I'm told I CAN control that animal, but it's hard, and it takes work.
That car is not me, and that animal is not me, but I'm the driver, I'm the trainer, I am responsible. Therefore now it is no longer I, but sin that lives in me. There has been a separation.
The lines are blurred because we're used to being that old man. We clarify the lines by learning the Scriptures, and by seeing how the Spirit changes us inside. Seeing that new stream of consciousness, learning what it is, the Spirit, and learning to choose it over the sinful stream.
To be continued . . .
Much love!