The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

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We need to be submitted to the Scriptures as we are to God, because they are God's Word to us. Read them, and believe what you read. Even if it seems strange, all the more reason to ask for understanding.

Much love!

As I said. There are Christians who have a false view on Isaiah 45:7 and they would think we are not submitting to the Scriptures in regards to this verse in Isaiah. I know. I have talked with them before. In other words, we know God is good and so their interpretation on Isaiah 45:7 is wrong. The same is true when people think God will agree with their sin when they use Romans 7:14-24 as an excuse to sin. Again. Read 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1. I can tell you to submit to these verses. Will you? Well, most Christians in my experience don’t accept what these verses plainly say.

 

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It proves the benefit of understanding what the text says, so we can hold to what is true. But alas, not everyone wants to do that, and many are willing to change the meanings of the words of Scripture for their own convenience.

If you won't believe what Paul wrote, what is the purpose in my repeating it?

Much love!

Jesus cut off Nicodemus and said,

“Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

So Christians must be born again. Their heart must be changed whereby they will not want to justify sin or evil. When I was changed by God In accepting Jesus as my Savior, the idea of justifying sin would have been abominable. Yet, that is the false Christ that many have accepted today. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin because they don’t believe on Jesus (John 16:8-9). This would be the real Jesus of the Bible that many ignore. So if a person is justifying sin, they have hardened their heart to certain sins they ignore the conviction of the Spirit on. Thus they will not fully let go of serving sin. They say May say they don’t sin habitually. But God knows the truth. In short: They will defend sin and use Scripture to do it.

 

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Off topic . . . but to answer, Elohim means "mighty ones", and God's declaration that there are elohim - mighty ones - among men is true, though they do not have God's might.

Much love!

It’s not off topic to point I am making in regards to our discussion on the main topic. There are people who wrongly twist this verse and say we are gods (little gods) and we have our own power as a god that we can tap into. But this is false and that is not what Jesus meant when He said, “You are gods.” But these people who twist the Scriptures could say we are not believing or submitting to our Lord’s words in John 10:34. But we know they are wrong because they are going against the whole counsel of God’s Word and they are justifying some kind of sin. People do the same thing with Romans 7:14-24.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It proves the benefit of understanding what the text says, so we can hold to what is true. But alas, not everyone wants to do that, and many are willing to change the meanings of the words of Scripture for their own convenience.

If you won't believe what Paul wrote, what is the purpose in my repeating it?

Much love!

So if you believe Paul’s words, then how do you believe his words in Galatians 5:24 and 2 Corinthians 7:1?
How do believe Peter’s words in 1 Peter 4:1-2?

 

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You're talking about American English, and you would need to demonstrate that this literary device was being employed by Paul in Koine Greek.

Didactic Passages of Scripture, at least what I think, are in fact very precise. If the trumpet doesn't make a clear sound, who can know what is trumpeted?

If I read that passage as though Paul were speaking of the past, it makes no sense, as he speaks of the transition he experienced, and the resultant dual laws at work in him.

"It is no more I, but sin that lives in me." What changed?

Much love!

I believe God preserved His Words in English today. Also, you did not grow up in that culture to know if they did not speak that way. But I take it by faith they did because that is the only way the text makes sense in light of the whole counsel of God’s Word. Again… what about 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:4, and 2 Corinthians 7:1? These verses would contradict the sin and still be saved viewpoint on Romans 7:14-24.

 

[Johann]

Thus they will not fully let go of serving sin. They say May say they don’t sin habitually. But God knows the truth. In short: They will defend sin and use Scripture to do it.

This is a blanket statement.
Are you walking in the Spirit 24/7?
Defend sin? Sin/s is abhorrent.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is a blanket statement.
Are you walking in the Spirit 24/7?
Defend sin? Sin/s is abhorrent.

The Bible says that we are to walk by faith and not by sight.
So your attempt to look at others to build your faith is not a biblical concept.
So look to the Bible and not anyone else.

Also, there is a difference between an alcoholic who is a part of a program to put away his alcohol for good (with him stumbling on occasion on his road to recovery) vs. the alcoholic who does not believe he can ever overcome his demon in the bottle. Therein lies the difference between us on this topic or issue. You simply don’t believe 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 (Among many other verses). I cannot force anyone to see the Scriptures on this matter. A person needs to be born again spiritually whereby they would not justify some level of sin and whereby they will not desire to change the Bible so as to suit their own selfish ends. The very title of this thread is wrong beyond all measure and is an attack upon God’s Holy Word and His good ways. But I cannot force you to see. Only God can open your eyes to the truth if you are willing to change. Right now, I don’t see that happening, but with God all things are possible.

My encouragement: Put away commentaries, videos, and other popular teachers and don’t look to the original languages (Until you get a handle on God’s Word). Just start reading the Bible for yourself and ask God for the understanding and do not under any circumstance change a verse that you don’t like in the English. Keep abiding in the Word of God and keep renewing your mind with the truth of His Word.

 

[Johann]

The Bible says that we are to walk by faith and not by sight.
So your attempt to look at others to build your faith is not a biblical concept.
So look to the Bible and not anyone else.

Also, there is a difference between an alcoholic who is a part of a program to put away his alcohol for good (with him stumbling on occasion on his road to recovery) vs. the alcoholic who does not believe he can ever overcome his demon in the bottle. Therein lies the difference on this topic or issue. You simply don’t believe 1 Peter4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 (Among many other verses). I cannot force anyone to see the Scriptures on this matter. A person needs to be born again spiritually whereby they would not justify some level of sin and whereby they will not desire to change the Bible so as to suit their own selfish ends. The very title of this thread is wrong beyond all measure and is an attack upon God’s Holy Word and His good ways. But I cannot force you to see. Only God can open your eyes to the truth if you are willing to change. Right now, I don’t see that happening, but with God all things are possible.

My encouragement: Put away commentaries, videos, and other popular teachers and don’t look to the original languages (Until you get a handle on God’s Word). Just start reading the Bible for yourself and ask God for the understanding and do not under any circumstance change a verse that you don’t like in the English. Keep abiding in the Word of God and keep renewing your mind with the truth of His Wor

According to a basic internet search:

There is also a Jussive Present.

 

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Also, you did not grow up in that culture to know if they did not speak that way.

Nor did you. That's how these arguments work. It doesn't really mean anything because no one alive today is a native Koine Greek speaker.

However, scholars have . . . oh nevermind, you know about all of that . . .

So if you believe Paul’s words, then how do you believe his words in Galatians 5:24 and 2 Corinthians 7:1?
How do believe Peter’s words in 1 Peter 4:1-2?

1 Peter 4:1-2 KJV
1) Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2) That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Just like Jesus, be resolved to suffer, it's cleansing.

1 Peter 4:3 KJV
3) For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

Let it be enough, the lusts of the flesh, if you suffer, God is purifying you.

To answer directly to your question, how does this passage speak towards whether if a Christian sins he stops being a Christian, the presupposition to this passage is that there is sin to be ceased from, and so suffering comes to accomplish that. (Of course, this is taking in a broader context than just the two verses.)

Rather than casting His children because of continued sin, God speaks of helping us through suffering to cease from that sin. This is affirmed also in Hebrews 12, that God will in fact train His children, and that His training will in fact be effective.

Galatians 5:22-25
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I'm not sure your thought here, but this saying is affirmed in a number of places.

Towards your question about whether sin causes you to stop being born again, IF we live in the Spirit, this is the condition to be met, and if you meet it, the subsequent admonition is for you, Let us also walk in the Spirit. The presupposition here is that you may be alive in the Spirit but not also walking in the Spirit, and to you it is said, "Let us also walk in the Spirit". If being alive in the Spirit is one and the same with walking in the Spirit, this verse would be a tautology. There is a reader whom Paul addresses who is alive in the Spirit though not walking in the Spirit.

Which happens to harmonize with Paul's writing in Romans 7 showing his current state of living.

2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV
1) Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

This is much the same thing.

Are you thinking I'm arguing against holy living? Because I'm not.

Much love!

 

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It’s not off topic to point I am making in regards to our discussion on the main topic. There are people who wrongly twist this verse and say

Doesn't this describe most any verse? It's a longer conversation, but we could discuss all the verses people twist.



Much love!

 

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So if a person is justifying sin, they have hardened their heart to certain sins they ignore the conviction of the Spirit on. Thus they will not fully let go of serving sin. They say May say they don’t sin habitually. But God knows the truth. In short: They will defend sin and use Scripture to do it.

It is God Who justifies the ungodly.

When you say, "a person is justifying sin", what does that mean exactly? Paul, in 1 Corinthians 4,

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

makes it clear he didn't know himself well enough to say whether he was sinning or not, what makes us any different?

Are you including in your "habitual sins" the habitual sin of not loving God with all your being? Who is not guilty of routinely breaking the first commandment? And it only gets worse from there.

Personally, I think the conclusion of the matter is found here . . .

1 Corinthians 1:27-31 KJV
27) But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28) And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29) That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Remember who God first gave that passage to . . . a church riddled with error . . . a letter correcting sin after sin . . . to whom God also said,

1 Corinthians 1:6-9 KJV
6) Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7) So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9) God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is also a Jussive Present.

Psalms 12:6-7
6 ”The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.”

Jeremiah 36:28 (NKJV)
“Take yet another scroll, and write on it all the former words that were in the first scroll which Jehoiakim the king of Judah has burned.”

Acts 8 (NKJV):
27 “…a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch…”
28 “he was reading Isaiah the prophet.”
32 “The place in the Scripture which he read…”

Note: The Ethiopian eunuch most likely did not have the original manuscript of Isaiah. He had a copy.
Yet, this copy is called “Scripture.” All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16).
So a copy can be divinely inspired, too (and not just the originals).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nor did you. That's how these arguments work. It doesn't really mean anything because no one alive today is a native Koine Greek speaker.

That is why we need to just have faith in God’s Word as it is written, and not faith in the scholars (scribes).
Jesus told us to beware of the scribes.

However, scholars have . . . oh nevermind, you know about all of that . . .

Christians who have went to bible school had lost their faith because the teachers there convinced them that there is no real Word of God that they can trust in. Words do not mean what they say in English. They undid the Word of God and cause men to be unbelievers. Some may stick it out but they are having faith in scholars and not the Word of God.

1 Peter 4:1-2 KJV
1) Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2) That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Just like Jesus, be resolved to suffer, it's cleansing.

Did you miss the part about how you can cease from sin by suffering like Christ did?

1 Peter 4:3 KJV
3) For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

Let it be enough, the lusts of the flesh, if you suffer, God is purifying you.

To answer directly to your question, how does this passage speak towards whether if a Christian sins he stops being a Christian, the presupposition to this passage is that there is sin to be ceased from, and so suffering comes to accomplish that. (Of course, this is taking in a broader context than just the two verses.)

Rather than casting His children because of continued sin, God speaks of helping us through suffering to cease from that sin. This is affirmed also in Hebrews 12, that God will in fact train His children, and that His training will in fact be effective.

Peter talks about how there are false teachers who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).
So not ceasing from sin is a bad thing.

Galatians 5:22-25
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I'm not sure your thought here, but this saying is affirmed in a number of places.

Towards your question about whether sin causes you to stop being born again, IF we live in the Spirit, this is the condition to be met, and if you meet it, the subsequent admonition is for you, Let us also walk in the Spirit. The presupposition here is that you may be alive in the Spirit but not also walking in the Spirit, and to you it is said, "Let us also walk in the Spirit". If being alive in the Spirit is one and the same with walking in the Spirit, this verse would be a tautology. There is a reader whom Paul addresses who is alive in the Spirit though not walking in the Spirit.

It’s not suggesting you can be alive in the Spirit and yet refuse to walk in the Spirit and yet you can still be alive.
Romans 8:13 says if you live after the flesh, you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit, you will live (live eternally).

Which happens to harmonize with Paul's writing in Romans 7 showing his current state of living.

Again, your interpretation on Romans 7:14-24 is an excuse to sin. God cannot agree with your thinking that you can sin. There is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5).

2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV
1) Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

This is much the same thing.

Are you thinking I'm arguing against holy living? Because I'm not.

Much love!

If you believe you can sin on occasion and still be saved based on 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24, then you are against holy living (Sanctification of the Spirit as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13). Please take note that God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13. You cannot have the mindset that you can sin and be saved on occasion or that you must sin again and you will still be saved by a belief alone in Jesus and still be holy. That’s not how it works. To have a mind set on defending sin would go against holy conduct to begin with. You don’t really believe you can cleanse yourself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God if you are a slave to your sin (i.e. a slave to sin on occasion because of your faulty interpretation on 1 John 1:8, and Romans 7:14-24).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is God Who justifies the ungodly.

When you say, "a person is justifying sin", what does that mean exactly? Paul, in 1 Corinthians 4,

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

makes it clear he didn't know himself well enough to say whether he was sinning or not, what makes us any different?

Are you including in your "habitual sins" the habitual sin of not loving God with all your being? Who is not guilty of routinely breaking the first commandment? And it only gets worse from there.

Personally, I think the conclusion of the matter is found here . . .

1 Corinthians 1:27-31 KJV
27) But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28) And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29) That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Remember who God first gave that passage to . . . a church riddled with error . . . a letter correcting sin after sin . . . to whom God also said,

1 Corinthians 1:6-9 KJV
6) Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7) So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9) God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Much love!

This is ridiculous. Romans 4:5 is not saying you can continue in ungodliness and still be saved. The person who believes God justifies the ungodly is referring to our Initial Salvation. Our ungodliness is a part of our old life (See Ephesians 2:2-3). It’s not referring to how you can still be ungodly and just trust in Jesus and be saved. Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. So you have to look at the whole counsel of God’s Word and not isolate certain verses to defend a mindset bent on defending sin (When God cannot agree with your sin).

Christians need to be truly born again and truly repent of your sins and not seek to justify sin. Once they are truly changed by God, they will not have the mindset to justify sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is God Who justifies the ungodly.

When you say, "a person is justifying sin", what does that mean exactly? Paul, in 1 Corinthians 4,

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

makes it clear he didn't know himself well enough to say whether he was sinning or not, what makes us any different?

Are you including in your "habitual sins" the habitual sin of not loving God with all your being? Who is not guilty of routinely breaking the first commandment? And it only gets worse from there.

Personally, I think the conclusion of the matter is found here . . .

1 Corinthians 1:27-31 KJV
27) But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28) And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29) That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Remember who God first gave that passage to . . . a church riddled with error . . . a letter correcting sin after sin . . . to whom God also said,

1 Corinthians 1:6-9 KJV
6) Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7) So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9) God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Much love!

While we do need to first be saved by God’s grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5) (Which is in our Initial Salvation), the conclusion of the matter is said to us in Ecclesiastes 12:13.

It says:

”Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:​

Fear God, and keep his commandments:​

for this is the whole duty of man.” (Ecclesiastes 12:13).​

This is because God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (See: Hebrews 12:14).

Hebrews 10:36 (NKJV) says,
”For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:”

 

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Christians who have went to bible school had lost their faith

Not me.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not me.

Much love!

As I said…. Those who stuck it out have the faith in scholars and what they say, and they do not faith in God’s Word in that there is any actual physical book that you can hold in your hands and say it is the perfect divinely inspired Word of God for today. This does not mean we cannot use Modern Translations or look to the original languages. This just means that there has to be a final Word of authority. We cannot just pick and choose whatever we want the Bible to say. Some today in modern scholarship believe whole sections of Scripture are not authentic like the woman caught in the act of adultery in John 8, etcetera. Some say that 1 John 5:7 should not be in our Bible and yet it is the only verse that teaches the Godhead (Trinity). This is all scholars saying this rubbish.

Jesus said, Beware of the scribes (Which are scholars).

 

[marks]

As I said…. Those who stuck it out have the faith in scholars and what they say, and they do not faith in God’s Word in that there is any actual physical book that you can hold in your hands and say it is the perfect divinely inspired Word of God for today. This does not mean we cannot use Modern Translations or look to the original languages. This just means that there has to be a final Word of authority. We cannot just pick and choose whatever we want the Bible to say. Some today in modern scholarship believe whole sections of Scripture are not authentic like the woman caught in the act of adultery in John 8, etcetera. Some say that 1 John 5:7 should not be in our Bible and yet it is the only verse that teaches the Godhead (Trinity). This is all scholars saying this rubbish.

Jesus said, Beware of the scribes (Which are scholars).

I don't think you are hearing me.

Much love!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't think you are hearing me.

Much love!

And I can say the same thing. But we both cannot be right. I trust the Bible by faith. This is a Bible that is one (the KJB), and it is perfect and divinely inspired whereby I cannot alter it or change it or allow others to change It. My Bible will remain the same 100 years from now. Scholars and their bibles keep changing the Word to keep the copyrights and money flowing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, while some have made it through Bible college, you have to think there is a problem if some do lose their faith. Bible college should be a place where your faith should increase and not decrease. But the reality is that Christians have lost their faith when they went to Bible college. This again points to how there is something wrong within the teaching itself that can draw them away from God’s Word.

Let me give you an example: Early on in my faith, when I read in a Christian magazine (That scholar perspective), one author promoted the lie of how the Bible was wrong in a particular verse or passage (pointing out a contradiction). For a split second I almost believed it, but I stopped myself because I knew my life was changed. I did not have an explanation for this contradiction in His Word, but I trusted God would provide one in His timing. In fact, many many years later I found an explanation that erased that supposed contradiction. So scholars are deceived into thinking there is no actual perfect Word of God, and they will at times get you to doubt God’s Word (Saying this part of the Bible is not in the Bible, or they will say this part of the Bible is in error, etcetera).