Does "worthy" mean "sinless perfection, the total eradication of the sinful nature?
J.
The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism
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J.
They were spiritually dead? Like, in a state of being dead?
Be thou watchful (ginou grēgorōn). Periphrastic imperative with present middle of ginomai (keep on becoming) and present active participle of grēgoreō (late present from perfect egrēgora and that from egeirō, as in Mat_24:42) and see Rev_16:15 for grēgoreō also.
He does not say “Arise from the dead” (Eph_5:14), for there are vestiges of life. Those still alive are addressed through the angel of the church.
Stablish the things that remain (stērison ta loipa). First aorist active imperative of stērizō, to make stable.
Those not actually dead, but in grave peril. See a like command to Titus in Crete (Tit_1:5). Every new pastor faces such a problem.
Which were ready to die (ha emellon apothanein). Imperfect active plural because the individuals, though neuter plural, are regarded as living realities.
The imperfect looking on the situation “with a delicate optimism” (Swete) as having passed the crisis, a sort of epistolary imperfect.
For I have found no works of thine (ou gar heurēka sou erga). “For I have not found any works of thine.” Perfect active indicative of heuriskō. The church as a whole represented by sou (thy).
Fulfilled (peplērōmena). Perfect passive predicate participle of plēroō. Their works have not measured up to God’s standard (enōpion tou theou mou).
And thou art dead (kai nekros ei). “The paradox of death under the name of life” (Swete). Not complete (a nucleus of life) death (Rev_3:2), but rapidly dying. See the picture in Jas_2:17; 2Co_6:9; 2Ti_3:5.
and art dead; or "but art dead"; for, the most part, or greater part of the members of these churches, are dead in trespasses and sins; and as for the rest, they are very dead and lifeless in their frames, in the exercise of grace, and in the discharge of duties; and under great spiritual declensions and decays, just as it were ready to die; and but few really alive in a spiritual sense, and especially lively, or in the lively exercise of grace, and fervent discharge of duty; yea, dead as to those things in which they had a name to live: and this seems to be our case now, who, it is to be hoped, are at, or towards the close of this period,.........
The duty/doing part which I lay stress on, not a mere outward confession.
Philippians not 1Timothy 1:15. You have not answered the points made within the text given and their context. Paul did not say he was continuing in sin that grace abounded. He said he was chief of sinners in respect to his past which he had just rehashed in verses 13 and 14.
So once again we are in Philippians.
In regard to Christian perfection Paul stated in verse 12 in chapter 3 of Philippians that he did not think he was there yet but that is what he follows after; pursues. That was his goal. Then the next part of the sentence starts with the word "if". He says, "If that I may apprehend, take hold that for (upon) which he (we) are apprehended under Christ Jesus. It was his hope to apprehend, take hold of that for which he himself was apprehended for in Christ Jesus. And that was said in relation to what was previously stated in verses 9 and 10. The Goal, to be knowing Him and the power of His resurrection. And to be found in Him not having his (our) own righteousness but that which is by, through the faith of Christ Jesus which is the righteousness of God through faith.
Then in verse 13-15 he says he forgets the things that are behind, in the past and moves forward to this high calling in Christ Jesus. The righteousness which is of God through the faith of Christ Jesus through the power of His resurrection.
As he continues in respect to that he says that those to whom be perfect have the same mindset. Not to think that they have apprehended anything yet and that they continue Forgetting those things that are behind, moving forward to this high calling which is in Christ Jesus. Amen
(Phil 3:9 [KJV])
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
(Phil 3:10 [KJV])
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
(Phil 3:12 [KJV])
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
(Phil 3:13 [KJV])
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
(Phil 3:14 [KJV])
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
(Phil 3:15 [KJV])
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
You are devious, not answering any of my questions!
My misconception?
let me put it this way, if you are unable to commit one ACT of hamartia in word, thought and deed, bridle your tongue, fully able to have died to sins of omission, you are an angel in the presence/pros of YHVH, having reached absolute sanctification in this life, you are reborn indeed, no need to suffer, or undergo suffering and in no need of putting Matthew 25 into daily practice.
You have "arrived" while the rest of us are still unregenerate.
When last have you gone out into the highways and byways and put what the scriptures commands of us into practice?
@Bible Highlighter you say we are no longer under the ten commandments, yet our Lord fully explained the Imperatives.
You are promulgating a dangerous doctrine, and you are very selective on scripture references.
I sense no power, dunamis, excousia, kratos coming from you other than condemnation on those who don't hold to sinless perfection as you do.
This includes everyone that believe as you do.
Question is......
Do you believe in sinless perfection?
Nice personal attack. Your issue is with Christ through John not me. For He is the one who said, little children be not decieved. He that does righteousness is righteous, EVEN As He is righteous. So how was Jesus righteous? By doing righteous ask through God. For it is written,
(John 14:10 [KJV])
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(John 14:11 [KJV])
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
(John 14:12 [KJV])
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Interesting article that may interest you (and I have read other similar articles) on the false doctrine of sinless perfection.
Sinless Perfection | Christian Answer Man
Cults use fear to control people. The erroneous teaching of sinless perfection is used to engender fear and make it easy for false prophets to control others.
www.christiananswerman.com
What I believe is not relevant. I am not here to speak of me. But the Word of God. What does God say. . You have not answered the points made within the text given and their context. Paul did not say he was continuing in sin that grace abounded in 1 Tim 1:15. He said he was chief of sinners in respect to his past which he had just rehashed in verses 13 and 14.
So once again we are in Philippians.
In regard to Christian perfection Paul stated in verse 12 in chapter 3 of Philippians that he did not think he was there yet but that is what he follows after; pursues. That was his goal. Then the next part of the sentence starts with the word "if". He says, "If that I may apprehend, take hold that for (upon) which he (we) are apprehended under Christ Jesus. It was his hope to apprehend, take hold of that for which he himself was apprehended for in Christ Jesus. And that was said in relation to what was previously stated in verses 9 and 10. The Goal, to be knowing Him and the power of His resurrection. And to be found in Him not having his (our) own righteousness but that which is by, through the faith of Christ Jesus which is the righteousness of God through faith.
Then in verse 13-15 he says he forgets the things that are behind, in the past and moves forward to this high calling in Christ Jesus. The righteousness which is of God through the faith of Christ Jesus through the power of His resurrection.
As he continues in respect to that he says that those to whom be perfect have the same mindset. Not to think that they have apprehended anything yet and that they continue Forgetting those things that are behind, moving forward to this high calling which is in Christ Jesus. Amen
But then again we still have not made it through Romans 7 and 8.
Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
What is the Law of sin that we have been set free from?
It is the fact that in me (us) is no good thing. For the Will to do good is present with me. But how to do it I find not. For the evil which I would not that do I. But it is not I that do it, but the sin that dwells in me.
So I find a law, that when I would do good evil is present with me. BUT in respect to the LAW of God I delight. But I see this other Law in my members prior to Christ warring against the LAW of God that is in mind bringing me into captivity to this law of sin which is in my members which brings forth death.
I thank God though through Jesus Christ whom shall deliver me from this body of death. I do indeed serve the Law of God with mind, But sadly with the flesh the law of sin. But now there is no more condemnation to us whom are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin, the evil that is present with me (us) that when I would do good I can not, but the evil that I would not that I do. FOR God sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, condemn the entity sin in His flesh, that the righteousness of the law fulfilled by us, who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. For we are led by the spirit of God and walk thereby mortifying the deeds of the body. For we have not the spirit of bondage, but the spirit of adoption thereby we cry Father. For as many that are led by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 4:1
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
1 Thessalonians 2:12
That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
Obviously if one is declaring the idea that they must sin again on occasion, they are not walking worthy of God because Jesus said, “sin no more” with two people (John 5:14) (John 8:11), and God cannot agree with a person’s thinking on their justifying sin (Because there is no darkness in God - 1 John 1:5).
Many (not all) in the church in Sardis were in trouble with the Lord.
Revelation 3 is referring to how their works were not perfect before God.
The majority (not all) of the church of Sardis was dead spiritually BECAUSE….
#1. They were told to repent (Revelation 3:3). Jesus said, “except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3).
#2. ”Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” (Revelation 3:4-5). It sounds like the majority of the church of Sardis is going to have their name blotted out of the book of life (unlike the few in the church of Sardis). Meaning, the majority of the church of Sardis is not saved, and they need to repent and one of the things they needed to do was make their works perfect before God.
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Jesus did not answer all questions put forth to Him.
If your questions are built upon a false premise or idea, and they are not clear (in that they are not specifically referring to a verse that defends you) there is no point in responding to those points.
I am also going off of what the Bible says in English and not in the original languages. If you spoke straight Greek to people who speak English, they would not understand you. Paul talks about how God is not the author of confusion. So stick with Scripture in the English with actual real verses and use verse reference numbers.
But to answer your question that is clear: Yes, I do believe a Christian can eventually in time reach a state of being sinlessly perfect; But that does not mean they cannot fall (Just as Lucifer was perfect in all his ways until iniquity was found in him). A Christian right now may not be sinlessly perfect in all things, and they may be in a Sanctification Process by the Spirit, but 1 Peter 4:1-2 makes it clear that one can cease from sin because they suffered in the flesh. For we should no longer live to the lust of the flesh, but to the will of God. You cannot live to the will of God and also serve sin. You have to be set free from being a slave to sin in order to be a slave to righteousness (Romans 6:17-18) (Which is a part of obeying the doctrine). You have to consider yourself dead unto sin and alive unto God (Romans 6:11). But you believe you are alive unto sin because you still believe you will sin again. You don’t really believe you are dead unto sin. You believe you can continue in sin so that grace may abound. But Paul asks: Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul says God forbid (Romans 6:1-2). While Christians are not under the Law (the Laws of Moses) (Romans 6:14) (Acts 13:39), Christians do need to love their brother to fulfill the righteous aspect or requirements of the Law (Romans 8:4, Romans 13:8-10). Christians need to walk after the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Galatians 5:16). They need to believe God’s Word in how it is written plainly (like a child would do). Don’t complicate it by going to the original languages and or by quoting commentaries, etcetera. Just read that verse and believe it at face value.
Make your case using an English translation like the King James Bible or another trustworthy English translation like it. Do not tell me how a particular word in English is false, etc., etc. and it really means this. If it is an archaic word, that is another matter (And could be explained using a regular old English dictionary or regular English dictionary). But we should all speak the same things in the Spirit of faith in according to what is written (See: 1 Corinthians 1:10, and 2 Corinthians 4:13).
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
The idea of one thinking they must sin again on occasion (by a false interpretation on 1 John 1:8) is why one would fight against wanting to be perfect as God desires of them. But God cannot agree with a person’s thinking on sin. That’s what folks are not getting. Christians are supposed to be set free from being a slave to sin, and they are to be a slave to righteousness (Romans 6:17-18).
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
I have put forth many truths in Scripture that refutes your belief here, and they have not been answered properly with God’s Word.
I believe God’s Word as it is plainly written in English. If you don’t believe that, then there is no point to continue this conversation. For one can make the Bible say whatever they want it to say in the original languages (with nobody else being the wiser because most people here did not grow up writing and speaking Biblical Hebrew, and Biblical Greek). Also, the Bible was translated out of these languages, as well. So to say that one’s interpretation is better than the Bible that existed for hundreds of years (KJB), they are acting like they know more than the 47 translators who worked on the King James Bible.
The Bible talks about how the 144,000 were without fault before the throne of God.
The Bible talks about how we are to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect.
There are many more things like this that I already posted and they have not been explained by Scripture by a trustworthy English translation.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
The article gets the context correct on Matthew 5:48 in that “being perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect” is in reference to: Loving our enemies. So the context of being perfect as the Father is perfect for Matthew 5:48 would be Matthew 5:38-47.
Is this a salvation issue to not love your enemies?
Yes. It is.
Hebrews 12:14 says, “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: “
This is what the article fails to mention.
They also ignore tons of other verses on being blameless, without fault, ceasing from sin, sin no more, sin not, etcetera.
So they are not looking fairly at the whole counsel of God’s Word.
They think that obeying God to enter the Kingdom is legalism.
But Jesus even agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28);
And Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
It’s okay. I realize that many I address here will not hear me; But I know that others who are seeking the truth on this matter can come across this forum by a Google search and find the truth of what God’s Word is plainly saying.
For God’s Word will not return void.
May God’s good ways be upon you.
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RLT63
Well-Known Member
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.
It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).
Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?
Paul asks the question in verse 24.
Who shall deliver me from this body of death?
A Christian would never ask such a question.
It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).
Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?
Paul asks the question in verse 24.
Who shall deliver me from this body of death?
A Christian would never ask such a question.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
No, though informed by his own experience, the "I" is Paul speaking in character for any Christian (especially the Gentile Christians in Rome) being asked to take on Torah. The key is verse 9, I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died. Paul was born a Jew; when was he EVER alive apart from Torah? Only a Christian can be said to be alive apart from the Law.
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