No. God said he will gives us victory over sin through Christ. It is part of salvation. We believe God.
The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism
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mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Just telling ya from whence it comes from...no so sure it is an "art", the pursuing...rather than an Imperative, a military command to be promptly obeyed, no questions asked, eschewing the "artful tactics and lofty sophistries of man"
J.
You post that as if you are disagreeing. It is In and through Christ. We must be in Christ to live through Him. Acts 26:18 is an interesting verse. As are the others you posted. Acts says that we are sanctified by the faith that is in Christ Jesus. As Galatians says, We are dead nevertheless we live. Yet not us but Christ lives in us. And the life we now live in the flesh. We live by the faith OF the Son of God that gave himself for us. For we whom have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
The thorn was a messenger of satan who was a person that was persecuting Paul making him feel weak,
Still Prayed for God to take the thorn away, and it was not done.
It’s message for us to understand that some things are not taken away, but I do believe things can be overcame by the spirit. Just we still f-up from time to time… no matter how perfect a person may see themselves by their flesh.
It’s only having the individual make their own choice: if they choose to believe in God who sent his Word to become a living person on earth down from heaven, and allow sanctification (where God writes on the hearts and minds of people) to happen you’re life will change, it’s all about the message of the Gospel of Christ that helps people, even just simply seeking out and reading the word.
And seeking out God in faith to a radical changed life that only comes by the spirit given from God by and through Christ in accordance with the Bible can be a slow or fast process for a variety of people.
Don’t you think?
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Imperative: “Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).
Imperative: “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).
Imperative: "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
Imperative: “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41).
What is the point of watching and praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are going to inevitably sin again?
But even throwing down the indicative card does not really help you, either.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 says: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
Not sure if you caught it or not. All Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18), and James says that works makes his faith perfect (James 2:22). So if we can be perfect unto all good works, then that perfects our faith. All Scripture is profitable for that purpose (Even the indicative stuff that you may think is optional or not as important).
You have to deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow Jesus as a part of salvation.
Believers cannot use Jesus as a shield to hide behind when they sin (as a mindset or way of life - even occasionally), or when they seek to justify sin. God cannot agree with a person’s sin.
Again, Scripture has to be read in the balance with other verses that refutes your false thinking.
Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).
Paul says, “And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” (Colossians 1:20-23).
Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).
Paul says, “It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28 NABRE).
Paul says, “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:2).
Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Nope. Ἔσεσθε in Matthew 5:48 is the future indicative form of “to be”. A literal translation would be, “You will be perfect…” or “You shall be perfect…”
Though to be fair, the SHALL echoes the Septuagint translations of the Ten Commandments, so it should be considered normative.
Mat_5:48. Concluding exhortation. οὖν, from an ancient form of the participle of the verb εἶναι (Klotz, Devar.) = “things being so;” either a collective inference from all that goes before (Mat_5:21-47) or as a reflection on the immediately preceding argument. Both come to the same thing. Godlike love is commended in Mat_5:44-47, but the gist of all the six illustrations of Christ’s way of thinking is: Love the fulfilling of the law; obviously, except in the case of oaths, where it is truth that is enjoined. But truth has its source in love; Eph_4:15 : ἀληθεύοντες ἐν ἀγάπῃ, “truthing it in love”.—ἔσεσθε, future, “ye shall be” = BE.—ὑμεῖς, ye, emphatic, in contrast with τελ. and ἐθν., who are content with moral commonplace and conventional standards.—Τέλειοι: in general, men who have reached the end, touched the ideal, that at least their purpose, not satisfied with anything short of it. The τέλειοι are not men with a conceit of perfection, but aspirants—men who seek to attain, like Paul: διώκω εἰ καὶ καταλάβω, Php_3:12, and like him, single-minded, their motto: ἓν δέ. Single-mindedness is a marked characteristic of all genuine citizens of the kingdom (Mat_6:33), and what the Bible means by perfection. All men who attain have one great ruling aim. That aim for the disciple, as here set forth, is Godlikeness—ὡς ὁ πατὴρ … τέλειός ἐστιν. God is what His sons aspire to be; He never sinks below the ideal: impartial, benignant, gracious love, even to the unworthy; for that, not all conceivable attributes, is what is in view. ὡς, not in degree, that were a discouraging demand, but in kind. The kind very necessary to be emphasised in view of current ideas and practice, in which holiness was dissociated from love. The law “Be holy for I am holy” (Lev_11:44) was taken negatively and worked out in separation from the reputedly sinful. Jesus gave it positive contents, and worked it out in gracious love.
J
Nice. The text implies the goal. A goal that would be achievable otherwise God through Christ would have not set it. Be perfect is acceptable since it also implies a state to which is not yet achieved.
(Matt 5:48 [CT OC+NC])
You therefore are to be perfect, as your Father, who is in heaven, is perfect.
(Matt 5:48 [GUV])
Therefore ye yourselves will be perfect, even as your Father Who is (in) the heavens is perfect.«
(Matt 5:48 [NET2])
So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Here are the other instances that Jesus through God used the Greek word Ἔσεσθε. Most of these occurrences were obviously achieved.
Matt 5:48 Ἔσεσθε Shall Be οὖν Therefore ὑμεῖς Ye τέλειοι Perfect, ὡσπερ Even As ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν Your Father ὁ Who 'Is' ἐν In τοῖς The οὐρανοῖς Heavens τέλειός Perfect ἐστιν Is. TRi
Matt 10:22 καὶ And ἔσεσθε Ye Will Be μισούμενοι Hated ὑπὸ By πάντων All διὰ On Account Of τὸ ὄνομά μου· My Name; ὁ δὲ But He That ὑπομείνας Endures εἰς To τέλος 'The' End, οὗτος He σωθήσεται Shall Be Saved. TRi
Matt 24:9 τότε Then παραδώσουσιν Will They Deliver Up ὑμᾶς You εἰς To θλῖψιν Tribulation, καὶ And ἀποκτενοῦσιν Will Kill ὑμᾶς You; καὶ And ἔσεσθε Ye Will Be μισούμενοι Hated ὑπὸ By πάντων All τῶν The ἐθνῶν Nations διὰ On Account Of τὸ ὄνομά μου My Name. TRi
Mark 13:13 καὶ And ἔσεσθε Ye Will Be μισούμενοι Hated ὑπὸ By πάντων All διὰ On Account Of τὸ ὄνομά μου My Name; ὁ δὲ But He Who ὑπομείνας Endures εἰς To 'The' τέλος End, οὗτος He σωθήσεται Shall Be Saved. TRi
Luke 6:35 πλὴν But ἀγαπᾶτε Love τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν Your Enemies, καὶ And ἀγαθοποιεῖτε Do Good, καὶ And δανείζετε Lend, μηδὲν Nothing ἀπελπίζοντες· Hoping For Again; καὶ And ἔσται Shall Be ὁ μισθὸς ὑμῶν Your Reward πολύς Great, καὶ And ἔσεσθε Ye Shall Be υἱοὶ Sons τοῦ Of The ὑψίστου Highest; ὅτι For αὐτὸς He χρηστός Good ἐστιν Is ἐπὶ To τοὺς The ἀχαρίστους Unthankful καὶ And πονηρούς Wicked. TRi
Luke 21:17 καὶ And ἔσεσθε Ye Will Be μισούμενοι Hated ὑπὸ By πάντων All διὰ Because Of τὸ ὄνομά μου My Name. TRi
John 8:36 ἐὰν If οὖν Therefore ὁ The υἱὸς Son ὑμᾶς You ἐλευθερώσῃ Shall Set Free, ὄντως Really ἐλεύθεροι Free ἔσεσθε Ye Shall Be. TRi
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
So, will you change your thesis that pursuit of perfection is heresy?
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
Who than can be saved? With man this is impossible. But with God all things are possible. For he that commits sin is a slave to it. And if the Son shall set you free. Free YOU are indeed.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
For it is by grace you are saved, though faith. And this is not of yourself; it is a gift from God; not of works, lest any man should boast.
You used 2 Cor 12:7 to imply the thorn was sin. Now that you were shown it wasn't You say, look Paul prayed three times and the thing that was making Paul feel weak that the LORD said was actually making him stronger in HIM wasn't taken away. God forbid that it was.
Amen to Grace, the Gift from GOD.
Saved by grace, the Gift from GOD, so no boosting because We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus (the gift of all gifts) for good works.
(Eph 2:10 [TRi])
αὐτοῦ γάρ For His ἐσμεν We Are ποίημα Workmanship, κτισθέντες Created ἐν In Χριστῷ Christ Ἰησοῦ Jesus ἐπὶ For ἔργοις Works ἀγαθοῖς Good, οἷς Which προητοίμασεν Before Prepared ὁ θεὸς God ἵνα That ἐν In αὐτοῖς Them περιπατήσωμεν We Should Walk.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]. (AMP)
For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment, SIN and given eternal life] through faith.
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