The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[Bible Highlighter]

ergo demonstrum the Bible cannot be Word, right

Please speak entirely in English and explain things in the most simplest way of what you mean here.

 

[bbyrd009]

Malachi 1:3. Romans 9:13 it does say that. Most people who’ve read it are aware of that

well, im not ezackly disagreeing, but the tenses are weird, and i suggest that more is being said than just “I hate Esau,” who after all has “Holiness” on the outskirts of his territory. Or else why use these cumbersome turns of phrase iow, when one might more easily say “Be perfect,” or “I hate him.”

and wadr what “most people” are aware of, esp in the Bible, likely sends them to perdition lol
well, not “after death” idt, but something like that. Theyre already “dead,” so…
And you He has quickened, who were dead…

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 John 1:8 is the real battleground here. Either one will use 1 John 1:8 as an excuse to sin, or they will see that it is a warning to the brethren that it is in reference to the gnostic believer's false belief that thought sin was an illusion or not real (like Christian Scientists today believe). But imagine if you are wrong and God is not saying you can get away with a little bit of sin. That would mean you are justifying sin and if God cannot agree with sin, then you are in serious trouble with the LORD. God is not going to tell you to strive to be perfect and yet you are not capable of doing that. It would be dishonest of God to tell you to be perfect and yet you cannot actually achieve that outcome. God's thoughts are not our thoughts. Most simply do not like the idea of wanting to be perfect because it would mean they would have to give up a lot of things in life for God. So they play silly putty with the Bible.

 

[Lizbeth]

Love the scripture in Zechariah that says, not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit says the Lord. Most of us have been walking in our own power and might, trying to be righteous by our own self effort. Which is how we all start out...it's not a bad thing, it's a "good" thing, but just not "perfect". In my sixties, and because of hindsight, looking back, I've realized for quite some time now that my life of following the Lord has been very mixed and that no matter how much I've tried, I've always fallen short, in a "cant' win for losin'" kind of way. Gof'd mercy and light, showing me the truth. I think not realizing our lack and need of something more of His Spirit is the reason we are relying on our own strength to begin with, so once we realize our need and start to seek God for what we lack I'm hoping is a good place to be in...in a position to receive what we are lacking and have need of.

Thinking about the rich young ruler who said he obeyed the law but he was troubled anyhow, feeling that he still lacked something more. What did Jesus say...."If ye would be PERFECT............" And the rest of His answer I believe can be symbolic for giving up all that we are currently relying on by way of the flesh to be HIS disciples, which without doing we can't truly be His disciple.

 

[bbyrd009]

Please speak entirely in English and explain things in the most simplest way of what you mean here.

ha and wise up the marks, you mean? Not happening bro, sorry
wouldnt help anyway…the way you imagine, in your mind…
i mean, if you cannot hear it, then you just arent hearing it, and were i or even Yah Himself drag you to it in plain language before your are ready, it would just be denied anyway
at least in my experience

 

[bbyrd009]

however, so as not to appear too combative lol,

they received the word of God with readiness of mind BUT they searched the Scriptures to see whether those things be so.

they received Paul’s word (they heard It from him) and then searched the Scriptures,

ergo demonstrum the Bible cannot be Word, right

therefore, as demonstrated…(i used the latin as a bit of pass/aggress at all the “thee” and “thou” here lol, your “” of the kjv, etc…nevermind)

but wadr you might just ask for specific illuminations, or even nowadays just copy/search, eh

 

[Bible Highlighter]

ha and wise up the marks, you mean? Not happening bro, sorry
wouldnt help anyway…the way you imagine, in your mind…
i mean, if you cannot hear it, then you just arent hearing it, and were i or even Yah Himself drag you to it in plain language before your are ready, it would just be denied anyway
at least in my experience

1 Corinthians 14:19
"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue."

1 Corinthians 14:11
"Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me."

 

[Bob Estey]

The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism




How can a heresy be ‘godly’? In short, it can’t. Godliness is about conformity to sound doctrine (Titus 2:1). However, most cases of (reasonably convincing) false teaching will consist of biblical truths that have been skewed in some way. The ingredients are good, but the recipe is incomplete or else has had unwelcome things added, and the result is a theological and practical mess.

Sinless Perfectionism is a doctrine like that. In short, it holds that it is possible for Christians to completely defeat sin in the present life and to live holy lives like Jesus did. At a glance, it makes a lot of sense. Jesus came to save us from sin. He died for our sins on the cross and he sent his Holy Spirit to empower his people to overcome sin and to live obedient, righteous lives in the present (Titus 2:11-14). Christians should have the highest aspirations for living holy lives and rejecting all sin.

Sinless Perfectionism is Unbiblical
However, the Bible also says that ‘If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us’ (1 John 1:8). It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with sinful desires (Galatians 5:16-17). Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses (James 1:13-15). That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.

Sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.


There is a much-repeated (but possibly untrue) story about the 19th century Baptist preacher C.H. Spurgeon in which he debunked perfectionism in a memorable way.[1]

Spurgeon was at a conference where a preacher taught perfectionism in an outspoken manner and even claimed to have reached a state of sinless perfection himself. Spurgeon didn’t challenge him on the spot. Instead, the next morning he poured a pitcher of milk over the man’s head, to which the ‘perfectionist’ responded with the kind of rage and hostility that you’d expect from any sinner. Perfectionism debunked.

We like this story. It’s funny to hear of false teaching being exposed in an amusing way. But I suspect that our reaction is far too smug. It betrays an attitude of self-assurance at precisely the point where we should feel our greatest need. It demonstrates a disturbing lack of concern about the fact that we sin and that our sin is deeply offensive to God. When we remember this then it’s impossible to gleefully say in our hearts: “you stupid perfectionists—of course we all sin!” Are we pleased with the situation? Have we forgotten what sin is? Even though we know that it’s false, shouldn’t we wish that sinless perfectionism were true? Don’t you long to be free of sin?

Spiritual Complacency is Unbiblical Too
If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it is the sin of spiritual complacency. It’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability. It’s acceptance that sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that. It’s responding to occasions of sin by almost justifying it with glib lines like: “we know that we all sin.” That is a ghastly attitude for a Christian to have and it needs to be challenged.

If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability—sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that.


It is easy for me to criticise sinless perfectionism because I don’t personally know any Christians who struggle with this doctrine. However, I dare say that I know an entire evangelical culture that is complacent about sin. We’ve forgotten that sin is ugly and grotesque; the complete opposite to righteousness. We’ve forgotten that God’s will for our lives is that we be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:3). We’ve forgotten that what Christians look forward to above all else is Jesus returning to take away our sin completely. We’ve forgotten that anyone who truly desires that day to come will be obsessed with living a holy life now (1 John 3:2-3).

Jesus taught that Christians would ‘hunger and thirst’ after righteousness (Matthew 5:6). Imagine a man who has been deprived of food and water for far too long. Hunger and thirst are not just a thought in his head, but all-encompassing desires that cannot be ignored. His whole body cries out for sustenance! He will never – can never – be satisfied until his desire is satiated. Is our hunger for righteousness like that? That’s what perfectionism (at its best) gets right. It desires to be without sin. That is a profoundly godly ambition, and one that all Christians should share. We recognise that we will inevitably fall short. But we are not happy about it.

Come Lord Jesus!

The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism - The Gospel Coalition | Australia

How can a heresy be ‘godly’? In short, it can’t. Godliness is about conformity to sound doctrine (Titus 2:1). However, most cases of (reasonably convincing) false teaching will consist of...

au.thegospelcoalition.org

I have tried this myself with these "sinless perfection giants"...just say anything untoward, and a reaction you'll get, maybe we should, like Spurgeon, pour milk on their heads.

J.

When we sin, trouble enters our life. It seems to me we're better off trying not to sin. Isn't a trouble-free life something to strive for?

 

[RLT63]

well, im not ezackly disagreeing, but the tenses are weird, and i suggest that more is being said than just “I hate Esau,” who after all has “Holiness” on the outskirts of his territory. Or else why use these cumbersome turns of phrase iow, when one might more easily say “Be perfect,” or “I hate him.”

and wadr what “most people” are aware of, esp in the Bible, likely sends them to perdition lol
well, not “after death” idt, but something like that. Theyre already “dead,” so…
And you He has quickened, who were dead…

In Malachi it is referring to Esau’s descendants.

 

[bbyrd009]

Remember, it only took one sin by Adam for the fall to happen

“the fall,” lol
cant be Quoted a single time, fwiw
likely even more like “the rise” imo!
(Catholics, arg already)

 

[Johann]

maybe?
But imo if Yah had wanted us to be perfect as we are perfect, then that is what would be written; or iow Be perfect as I am perfect is coming from the One Who claims responsibility for creating evil too, right?
Anyway, attempts at sinless perfection a la JWism Sabbatarianism etc i run from that now, while also taking care to meticulously, to the point of absurdity if possible, follow, while in their culture, which happens more often than i would like lol

By judging others we blind ourselves to our own evil and to the grace which others are just as entitled to as we are.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

When all is said and done, the life of faith is nothing if not an unending struggle of the spirit with every available weapon against the flesh.
A God who let us prove his existence would be an idol

A God who let us prove his existence would be an idol

Discipleship is not an offer that man makes to Christ.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Shalom
J.

1 John 2:27 (NKJV)“But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.”

Romans 14:4 says,
“Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.”

It is also written,

5 "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.​

6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).​

In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? Well, trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do (Because they are going to encourage me to always do the right thing and not the wrong thing and they are not going to make excuses for sin). Furthermore, it does not matter if most of the whole world was not living correctly. God's Word is still the standard and the standard is not my life alone. God destroyed an entire world with a global flood except for eight people. We walk by faith and not by sight. I am not above God's Word in what it says anymore than you are. If the Bible tells me to be ye holy, or perfect that is something I have to accept (Whether I like it or not).

Christians also are in a Sanctification Process, as well. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Are you actually cleansing yourself from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit PERFECTING holiness in the FEAR of God? Again, every Christian should say “yes” to this kind of question. If not there is a big problem going on in that they are not believing God’s Word.

Saying that Christians still commit acts of sin goes against the truth of 2 Corinthians 7:1.
You cannot say you must sin again and yet also be on the road to holiness in cleansing yourself.
That would be like throwing poop around your house as you are trying to clean the house for your guests.

In addition, I have been talking on Christian forums since 2011. One thing I discovered is that when a person cannot really make their case with the Bible to defend their wrong belief, they then make it personal (as if my life is the standard when in reality the Bible is the standard of where we should build our faith). So my encouragement to you is stop looking to others and look to the Bible alone and ask God for the help in understanding it. Stop quoting men and or their commentaries, or lexicons, and just quote the Word of God.

May God bless you (even if we disagree on this topic).

Correct you are, we are in disagreement.

Shalom LaCheim אח
J.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

however, so as not to appear too combative lol,

they received Paul’s word (they heard It from him) and then searched the Scriptures,

No. They searched the Scriptures to see if Paul's words were true or not.

therefore, as demonstrated…(i used the latin as a bit of pass/aggress at all the “thee” and “thou” here lol)

Most people don't speak Latin. Thee's and thou's are King James language and one can look up a Modern Translation to find the alternate meaning easily. Discussion of the Word of God is the point vs. throwing in incoherent ramblings that people have to decode all the time. In other words, if people don't understand you, they will just pass by what you said and ignore you or worse yet, they will think you have mental problems.

As a man of God: Are you concerned with lost souls?
Do you truly want people to know the truth of God's Word?
Then why make it harder for them to understand you?
That is what puzzles me with your writing approach here.

but wadr you might just ask for specific illuminations, or even nowadays just copy/search, eh

Again, speak like a normal human being and speak as clearly as possible, and I will give you a reply.
For people can misunderstand others even when they speak clearly. Why would you want to put a stumbling block of confusion in desiring to be understood? So either write correctly for people to understand or be an author of confusion. Just know the Bible says God is not the author of confusion.

 

[bbyrd009]

Discipleship is not an offer that man makes to Christ

this one im not quite getting i guess

 

[amadeus]

It shall help thee greatly to understand scripture
If thou mark not only what is spoken
Or written
But of whom
And to whom
With what words
At what time
Where
To what intent
With what circumstances
Considering what goeth before
And what followeth after

Answering those questions may be helpful, but without God's help how far can a person go? The Father is perfect and we are to be like Him. He is seemingly unlimited, but we, what is our limit? How may we, if we may, exceed our boundaries?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

Is not the only limit on what God can do with regard to a man placed on Himself by the power that God gave to the man as established by God's own Word? Does not then man limit God?

...As we cause a weaker brother to stumble, we are sinning.

Teleios does not mean sinless perfection.

J.

What is our purpose before God when a brother with his eye on us stumbles? Do we know? God surely does.

If God is sinlessly perfect, what is that? What is our goal? Forward to the impossible?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To all:

Matthew 5:48 says:
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

John 5:38 says:
"And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not."

 

[Johann]

When we sin, trouble enters our life. It seems to me we're better off trying not to sin. Isn't a trouble-free life something to strive for?

Are you perfect in word, thought and deed?
No need to confess sin?

The heresy of Perfectionism.

Some might not say, with the Antinomians, that they were absolved from the obligation of the moral law, but they maintained that they were done with sin, had no more sinful propensities, committed no more sinful acts.

In opposition hereto the Apostle asserts two facts: (1) Inherent corruption. Distinguish ἁμαρτίαν ἔχειν (“to have sin”) and ἁμαρτάνειν (“to sin”), corresponding to the sinful principle and its manifestation in specific acts.

Our natures are poisoned, the taint is in our blood. Grace is the medicine, but recovery is a protracted process. It is begun the moment we submit ourselves to Christ, but all our lives we continue under treatment. πλανῶμεν, “lead astray” (cf. Mat_18:12). ἡ ἀλήθεια, in Johannine phraseology not simply “der Wahrheitssinn, die Wahrhaftigkeit der Selbstprüfung und der Selbsterkenntniss” (Rothe), but the revelation of “the True God” (ver. 20; Joh_17:3), which came “through Jesus Christ” (Joh_1:17), Himself “the Truth” (Joh_14:6).

Nearly equivalent to ὁ λόγος (1Jn_1:10). The Truth is a splendid ideal, never realised here, else it would cease to be an ideal; always as we pursue it displaying a fuller glory, And thus the nearer we approach it the further off it seems; when we walk in the light we see faults which were hidden in the darkness. Self-abasement is a characteristic of the saints.

When Juan de Avila (A.D. 1500–69) was dying the rector of his college approached him and said: “What joy it must be to you to think of meeting the Saviour!” “Ah!” said the saint, “rather do I tremble at the thought of my sins.” (2)

The frequent falls of the believer. We all “have sinned (ἡμαρτήκαμεν),” i.e., committed acts of sin (ἁμαρτίας) manifesting the strength and activity of the sinful principle (ἡ ἁμαρτία) in our souls. This, however, is no reason for despair.

There is a remedy—forgiveness and cleansing in the blood of Jesus; and there is a way of obtaining it—confession. πιστός, i.e., to His promise (cf. Heb_10:23). δίκαιος: He would be unrighteous if He broke His promise ratified by the blood of Jesus.

Peace is not got by denying our sinfulness and our sins, but by frankly confessing them and availing ourselves, continually and repeatedly, of the gracious remedy.

“Woe to that soul which presumes to think that he can approach God in any other way than as a sinner asking mercy. Know yourself to be wicked, and God will wrap you up warm in the mantle of His goodness” (Juan de Avila).

“Remission of sins cannot be sundered from penitence, nor can the peace of God belong to consciences where the fear of God does not reign” (Calv.).

Perfectionism has two causes: (1) The stifling of conscience: “we make Him a liar, i.e., turn a deaf ear to His inward testimony, His voice in our souls.

(2) Ignorance of His Word: it “is not in us”. Such a delusion were impossible if we steeped our minds in the Scriptures. Consider the lapses of the saints, e.g., David, Peter....and many more...
You want the source?

Shalom
J.

 

[bbyrd009]

No. They searched the Scriptures to see if Paul's words were true or not

then why do you say “no?”
since you just ezackly rephrased what i already said?

Most people don't speak Latin.

most ppl dont speak archaic english either eh

Thee's and thou's are King James language and one can look up a Modern Translation to find the alternate meaning easily.

ergo demonstrum
ok ipad wont import searches, but they are just as easily found wadr
as i said, it was an intentional diversion anyway lol

Discussion of the Word of God is the point vs. throwing in incoherent ramblings that people have to decode all the time

so you say, yes

In other words, if people don't understand you, they will just pass by what you said and ignore you or worse yet, they will think you have mental problems

might even think im drunk on wine at noon, eh?

perfect then, iow
lol

 

[Bible Highlighter]

this one im not quite getting i guess

Now you know how it feels when a person speaks in a way that makes it difficult to understand.
Do unto others as you want done unto yourself. Do you want to go out into the world and have people speak in a way that is extremely difficult for you to figure out? Then why do it with others?

Love your neighbor.

 

[Bob Estey]

Are you perfect in word, thought and deed?
No need to confess sin?

The heresy of Perfectionism.

Some might not say, with the Antinomians, that they were absolved from the obligation of the moral law, but they maintained that they were done with sin, had no more sinful propensities, committed no more sinful acts.

In opposition hereto the Apostle asserts two facts: (1) Inherent corruption. Distinguish ἁμαρτίαν ἔχειν (“to have sin”) and ἁμαρτάνειν (“to sin”), corresponding to the sinful principle and its manifestation in specific acts.

Our natures are poisoned, the taint is in our blood. Grace is the medicine, but recovery is a protracted process. It is begun the moment we submit ourselves to Christ, but all our lives we continue under treatment. πλανῶμεν, “lead astray” (cf. Mat_18:12). ἡ ἀλήθεια, in Johannine phraseology not simply “der Wahrheitssinn, die Wahrhaftigkeit der Selbstprüfung und der Selbsterkenntniss” (Rothe), but the revelation of “the True God” (ver. 20; Joh_17:3), which came “through Jesus Christ” (Joh_1:17), Himself “the Truth” (Joh_14:6).

Nearly equivalent to ὁ λόγος (1Jn_1:10). The Truth is a splendid ideal, never realised here, else it would cease to be an ideal; always as we pursue it displaying a fuller glory, And thus the nearer we approach it the further off it seems; when we walk in the light we see faults which were hidden in the darkness. Self-abasement is a characteristic of the saints.

When Juan de Avila (A.D. 1500–69) was dying the rector of his college approached him and said: “What joy it must be to you to think of meeting the Saviour!” “Ah!” said the saint, “rather do I tremble at the thought of my sins.” (2)

The frequent falls of the believer. We all “have sinned (ἡμαρτήκαμεν),” i.e., committed acts of sin (ἁμαρτίας) manifesting the strength and activity of the sinful principle (ἡ ἁμαρτία) in our souls. This, however, is no reason for despair.

There is a remedy—forgiveness and cleansing in the blood of Jesus; and there is a way of obtaining it—confession. πιστός, i.e., to His promise (cf. Heb_10:23). δίκαιος: He would be unrighteous if He broke His promise ratified by the blood of Jesus.

Peace is not got by denying our sinfulness and our sins, but by frankly confessing them and availing ourselves, continually and repeatedly, of the gracious remedy.

“Woe to that soul which presumes to think that he can approach God in any other way than as a sinner asking mercy. Know yourself to be wicked, and God will wrap you up warm in the mantle of His goodness” (Juan de Avila).

“Remission of sins cannot be sundered from penitence, nor can the peace of God belong to consciences where the fear of God does not reign” (Calv.).

Perfectionism has two causes: (1) The stifling of conscience: “we make Him a liar, i.e., turn a deaf ear to His inward testimony, His voice in our souls.

(2) Ignorance of His Word: it “is not in us”. Such a delusion were impossible if we steeped our minds in the Scriptures. Consider the lapses of the saints, e.g., David, Peter....and many more...
You want the source?

Shalom
J.

I don't believe I said I was perfect.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

then why do you say “no?”
since you just ezackly rephrased what i already said?

Well, because you are not speaking clearly enough for me to understand you properly.
What grade level education are you at?

most ppl dont speak archaic english either eh

So you write this way because you have a problem with the King James Bible?

ergo demonstrum

Talk to me in English please.
If not, I will ignore your incoherent ramblings and your efforts to write will be as if they were nonexistent and useless.

ok ipad wont import searches, but they are just as easily found wadr

Please learn how to write real words.

as i said, it was an intentional diversion anyway lol
so you say, yes

might even think im drunk on wine at noon, eh?

perfect then, iow
lol

Why would you want others to think you are drunk?
The Bible condemns one in being drunk.