The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[Episkopos]

The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism




How can a heresy be ‘godly’? In short, it can’t. Godliness is about conformity to sound doctrine (Titus 2:1). However, most cases of (reasonably convincing) false teaching will consist of biblical truths that have been skewed in some way. The ingredients are good, but the recipe is incomplete or else has had unwelcome things added, and the result is a theological and practical mess.

Sinless Perfectionism is a doctrine like that. In short, it holds that it is possible for Christians to completely defeat sin in the present life and to live holy lives like Jesus did. At a glance, it makes a lot of sense. Jesus came to save us from sin. He died for our sins on the cross and he sent his Holy Spirit to empower his people to overcome sin and to live obedient, righteous lives in the present (Titus 2:11-14). Christians should have the highest aspirations for living holy lives and rejecting all sin.

Sinless Perfectionism is Unbiblical
However, the Bible also says that ‘If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us’ (1 John 1:8). It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with sinful desires (Galatians 5:16-17). Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses (James 1:13-15). That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.

Sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.


There is a much-repeated (but possibly untrue) story about the 19th century Baptist preacher C.H. Spurgeon in which he debunked perfectionism in a memorable way.[1]

Spurgeon was at a conference where a preacher taught perfectionism in an outspoken manner and even claimed to have reached a state of sinless perfection himself. Spurgeon didn’t challenge him on the spot. Instead, the next morning he poured a pitcher of milk over the man’s head, to which the ‘perfectionist’ responded with the kind of rage and hostility that you’d expect from any sinner. Perfectionism debunked.

We like this story. It’s funny to hear of false teaching being exposed in an amusing way. But I suspect that our reaction is far too smug. It betrays an attitude of self-assurance at precisely the point where we should feel our greatest need. It demonstrates a disturbing lack of concern about the fact that we sin and that our sin is deeply offensive to God. When we remember this then it’s impossible to gleefully say in our hearts: “you stupid perfectionists—of course we all sin!” Are we pleased with the situation? Have we forgotten what sin is? Even though we know that it’s false, shouldn’t we wish that sinless perfectionism were true? Don’t you long to be free of sin?

Spiritual Complacency is Unbiblical Too
If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it is the sin of spiritual complacency. It’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability. It’s acceptance that sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that. It’s responding to occasions of sin by almost justifying it with glib lines like: “we know that we all sin.” That is a ghastly attitude for a Christian to have and it needs to be challenged.

If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability—sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that.


It is easy for me to criticise sinless perfectionism because I don’t personally know any Christians who struggle with this doctrine. However, I dare say that I know an entire evangelical culture that is complacent about sin. We’ve forgotten that sin is ugly and grotesque; the complete opposite to righteousness. We’ve forgotten that God’s will for our lives is that we be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:3). We’ve forgotten that what Christians look forward to above all else is Jesus returning to take away our sin completely. We’ve forgotten that anyone who truly desires that day to come will be obsessed with living a holy life now (1 John 3:2-3).

Jesus taught that Christians would ‘hunger and thirst’ after righteousness (Matthew 5:6). Imagine a man who has been deprived of food and water for far too long. Hunger and thirst are not just a thought in his head, but all-encompassing desires that cannot be ignored. His whole body cries out for sustenance! He will never – can never – be satisfied until his desire is satiated. Is our hunger for righteousness like that? That’s what perfectionism (at its best) gets right. It desires to be without sin. That is a profoundly godly ambition, and one that all Christians should share. We recognise that we will inevitably fall short. But we are not happy about it.

Come Lord Jesus!

The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism - The Gospel Coalition | Australia

How can a heresy be ‘godly’? In short, it can’t. Godliness is about conformity to sound doctrine (Titus 2:1). However, most cases of (reasonably convincing) false teaching will consist of...

au.thegospelcoalition.org

I have tried this myself with these "sinless perfection giants"...just say anything untoward, and a reaction you'll get, maybe we should, like Spurgeon, pour milk on their heads.

J.

Jesus said that very few would be able to enter into the narrow way and walk the narrow path. Of course, that doesn't make much sense to the modern believer since most people walk in their own power and just claim that they are doing so on a level that is equivalent with the very righteousness of God. There is the heresy you should be looking at. So then the higher spiritual walk is basically unknown. And worse yet, people are hostile to the idea that in Christ there is no sin. Being covered by grace corporately is not the same as being covered individually. To enter INTO Christ as an individual means going to the cross to die to the power of sin. A walk that is in Christ is a walk in the perfection of Christ. This is about LOCATION....being FOUND in Christ. Putting on the New Man means putting on the perfection of Christ. Now, remaining there is a whole other matter.

 

[Johann]

Jesus said that very few would be able to enter into the narrow way and walk the narrow path. Of course, that doesn't make much sense to the modern believer since most people walk in their own power and just claim that they are doing so on a level that is equivalent with the very righteousness of God. There is the heresy you should be looking at. So then the higher spiritual walk is basically unknown. And worse yet, people are hostile to the idea that in Christ there is no sin. Being covered by grace corporately is not the same as being covered individually. To enter INTO Christ as an individual means going to the cross to die to the power of sin. A walk that is in Christ is a walk in the perfection of Christ. This is about LOCATION....being FOUND in Christ. Putting on the New Man means putting on the perfection of Christ. Now, remaining there is a whole other matter.

Brother @Episkopos I concur with what you have shared.

Here are scripture references on "put on"

Rom_13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Gal_3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Eph_6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Col_3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Col_3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Col_3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

2Ti_1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

I have one question, maybe two, for you.

Do you struggle in your walk with Christ?
A sense of purposelessness?
Ever heard the voice of the still, small voice?
Absolutely sure re your salvation in Christ?
Do we know where we are going upon death?

Reason why I'm asking is that I am super tired of super heroes knowing all the answers to life's questions, intellectually, self taught, having a form of godliness.....self sent, not God sent.

I am struggling with these questions, daily, is it the same with you?

How is this for transparency?
Are we walking in the Spirit 24/7? Really being led by the Ruach, or by the ego eimi?
Is the dereck we trod on easy, or thlipsis? [I know you are acquainted with the Koine Greek my brother]

Heck, more than two questions...and I want YOU to answer me brother, this is not up for others to tell me how spiritual they are, this is strictly between you and me @Episkopos

Shalom
Johann

 

[bbyrd009]

5 dead, more than a dozen injured at LGBTQ nightclub in Colorado

Sin is the breaking of the 10 Commandments. 1 John 3:4 What about the other two?

www.christianforums.com

well as near as i can tell the Esau comment came from you there? Same avatar anyway?
but fwiw i am bbyrd009 virtually everywhere on the interwebs
(and im pretty sure Yah does not hate Esau btw, or the Bible would say that)

 

[Johann]

well as near as i can tell the Esau comment came from you there? Same avatar anyway?
but fwiw i am bbyrd009 virtually everywhere on the interwebs
(and im pretty sure Yah does not hate Esau btw, or the Bible would say that)

Gen_27:41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.

Mal_1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Rom_9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


שָׂטַם
śāṭam: A verb meaning to hate; to bear a grudge against, to harass. It means to nurse hostility and bitterness toward someone (Gen_27:41; Gen_50:15; Psa_55:3 [4]); or even to attack or harass a person physically (Gen_49:23). It is rendered variously in Job_16:9 (KJV, "hateth"; NASB, "hunted"; NIV, "tears," all renderings indicating God's supposed attitude toward Job); likewise in Job_30:21.

Mal 1.3
שָׂנֵא
śānē’: A verb meaning to hate, to be unwilling, to be hated. This verb is the antonym of the Hebrew verb ’āhaḇ (H157), meaning to love. The verb means to hate God or persons; God punishes children for the sins of their fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Him, but He shows kindness instead of punishment to those who love (’āhaḇ) Him (Exo_20:5). God hates as His enemies those who love cruelty and wickedness (Psa_11:5); they do not keep His covenant and are not loyal to Him (Exo_20:5). God's people were not to become allied to those who hated the Lord (2Ch_19:2; Psa_139:21). God or persons can be the subject of the verb; God came to hate the palaces of Jacob (Amo_6:8; Hos_9:15); and even the religious services of His own people because they were false (Amo_5:21). In fact, God hates all who do evil (Psa_5:5 [6]); and wickedness (Psa_45:7 [8]); thus, to fear God means to hate evil (Pro_8:13).
God is different from all other so-called gods, so much so that He hates the corrupt things the heathen do when they worship these gods (Deu_12:31). The word describes the haters or enemies of persons. David's enemies were those whom his soul hated (2Sa_5:8); the enemies of Rebekah would be those who might hate her descendants (Gen_24:60). The lack of hatred toward a person cleared someone who accidentally killed another person without planning to do so and did not previously hate the person (Deu_4:42). Absalom, on the other hand, hated his brother Ammon for humiliating his sister and planned his death because he hated him (2Sa_13:22). The negative rendition of love your neighbor as yourself asserted that you should not hate your brother in your heart (Lev_19:17).
The word means to dislike, to be hostile to, or to loathe someone or something in some contexts: Isaac accused Abimelech of rejecting him or acting hostile toward him when he asked Isaac to move away from him (Gen_26:27; Jdg_11:7); Joseph's brothers became bitter and hostile toward him and his dreams (Gen_37:5); Malachi asserted that God hated Esau but loved Jacob to explain how God had dealt with their descendants (Mal_1:3); God cared for Esau and gave him offspring. A similar use of this word is found concerning Jacob's love for Rachel and the hyperbolic statement that he hated Leah (Gen_29:31, Gen_29:33; Deu_21:16-17); Jethro instructed Moses to choose faithful men who despised increasing their wealth in dishonest ways (Exo_18:21). In the passive stem of the verb, it is used once to refer to the poor who are despised by their friends or neighbors in contrast to the rich who have many friends (Pro_14:20).
In the intensive stem, the word means one who radiates hatred (i.e., an enemy); Moses prayed for the Lord to strike the enemies of Levi (Deu_33:11; 2Sa_22:41). The word described the enemies of the Lord (Num_10:35; Deu_32:41). The word also described the person who hates wisdom; such a person loves death (Pro_8:36).

But Esau I hated (ton de Esau emisēsa). This language sounds a bit harsh to us. It is possible that the word miseō did not always carry the full force of what we mean by “hate.” See Mat_6:24 where these very verbs (miseō and agapaō) are contrasted. So also in Luk_14:26 about “hating” (miseō) one’s father and mother if coming between one and Christ. So in Joh_12:25 about “hating” one’s life. There is no doubt about God’s preference for Jacob and rejection of Esau, but in spite of Sanday and Headlam one hesitates to read into these words here the intense hatred that has always existed between the descendants of Jacob and of Esau.
Robertson

guess you are in error on this one...
J.

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you believe in Universalism?

no, i believe that the concept arises from the attempt to turn salvation into immortality, rather than being saved from (the coming) calamity, by which i mean not some future corporate armageddon, but the next mundane personal disaster that any small group or individual might encounter

So you believe that the culture influenced the Bible on the word “perfect”?

what i was saying is that you have a definition of perfect that Yah is not using, ergo the culture has influenced you, whereas Yah calls us to be perfect i might say “in a diff way, as He is perfect,” or iow perhaps with outward appearances that others might condemn as “imperfect,” nature comes to mind here even, “How do those little creatures or plants know how to _________, that is amazing” when in truth those are just the ones that survived, having randomly chosen that strategy, and all the rest died, the 99% or whatever

If that is the case, then it doesn’t sound like you believe 2 Timothy 3:16 in that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.

well, this is somewhat involved bc Greek, even though it is rather simple once one gets it, but i recall struggling with this for a week or so, so short answer, Paul likely did not say what we read translated anyway, as the following discussion might help illuminate,
”
In 2 TIMOTHY 3:15, Paul uses this word, and not graphe, to refer to "Holy Documents" or "Sacred Letters." It's often thought that Paul specifically referred to the canon of the Septuagint, but then he would probably have preferred to use γραφη graphe. He more probably either referred to Hebrew characters as "holy letters" (Timothy, after all, had a Greek father and was raised in Lystra) or else perhaps some kind of otherwise unknown correspondence that brought people together — have a look at our article on oft misunderstood adjective αγιος (hagios), meaning holy, or rather "causing to converge".

In JOHN 5:47, Jesus uses gramma to emphasize the physical act of writing as opposed to the physical act of speaking: "You scrutinize Moses' Scriptures (graphe; 5:39), but if you don't believe his writing (gramma), how would you believe my speaking (ρημα, rhema)?"

A closely related noun, which isn't used in the New Testament, is γραμμη (gramme), meaning a stroke or line, which brings to mind Isaiah 53:5…
” The Word of God once came in the flesh, and now in Linked Data , γραμμα, about halfway down,
and ive included the bit at the end for further study. I understand it begins with an undefined bit, “Paul uses this word…” but i didnt want to ruin the string for search, and it is repeated just below anyway, “gramma.”

But to address your question, i think it is our personal definition of “perfect” that is different, from “Be perfect as I am perfect,” which is iow not “Be perfect.” as ive already addressed. Or iow the Bible is not wrong, but rather It is likely written using a turn-of-phrase if you will, “…as I am perfect,” and we being humans just naturally reduce stuff we dont understand to something that we do understand, so thus wisdom is hidden from the wise (in their own eyes)

We are Christians because of what the Bible says.

so you say, yes
but were we in a diff venue and not hijacking a thread, i could shred that to death wadr. We are Christians bc the cult of sol invictus played the strong man and dragged us in, more like

If there was even one error in your Bible, then how can you trust the rest of it?

if there is even one error in your translation, how can you etcetc
we have ample warnings about scribes imo, and we also have the orig available to us right

In other words, God’s Word is either all true, or it’s all false.

wadr we currently have diff definitions of what Word is, but i dont want to get into that again lol
suffice it to say that imo reducing Word to “Bible” is…possibly not the best idea
rhema is not Pneuma, as gramma is not graphe, and these are quite similar in a way imo
each contains a subtle shift that completely alters the intent, imo
So, why not just take the Bible as Word? Fine, works for me, but then one obv would not be seeking any further for the meaning of Word, right. Word then remains (possibly) obscured, which im pretty sure is intended, and i prolly should not even be talking about this lol

i could go one to list many, pages worth even, of instances where believers are selectively literal where the Bible is concerned…or you might just tell me where the thermometer is inserted for detecting if you are hot, cold, or lukewarm?

 

[Johann]

what i was saying is that you have a definition of perfect that Yah is not using, ergo the culture has influenced you, whereas Yah calls us to be perfect i might say “in a diff way, as He is perfect,” or iow perhaps with outward appearances that others might condemn as “imperfect,” nature comes to mind here even, “How do those little creatures or plants know how to _________, that is amazing” when in truth those are just the ones that survived, having randomly chosen that strategy, and all the rest died, the 99% or whatever

Like your style...
May I assume you mean "perfect" as in relative?
J.

 

[bbyrd009]

Ellen Gould White?

ha no, our helen

 

[Johann]

what i was saying is that you have a definition of perfect that Yah is not using, ergo the culture has influenced you, whereas Yah calls us to be perfect i might say “in a diff way, as He is perfect,” or iow perhaps with outward appearances that others might condemn as “imperfect,” nature comes to mind here even, “How do those little creatures or plants know how to _________, that is amazing” when in truth those are just the ones that survived, having randomly chosen that strategy, and all the rest died, the 99% or whatever

Like your style...
May I assume you mean "perfect" as in relative?
J.

ha no, our helen

Who's that?

 

[bbyrd009]

Here is what I am saying...many are "feigning" themselves to be super holy on CF's...go visit them in their homes, and be ready for a shocking surprise...speaking from experience...
J.

yeh, being pious at first is hardly a new thing i guess; goes with the here a little, there a little, which starts out as an instruction and ends up like a curse, etc

fwiw i used to have quite the problem with not offending them, until the anabaptists showed me how meticulously honoring some ridic mandate when in their company, but then acting like…well, a little child when in ones own culture (that the pious would eventually catch sight of, and be dismayed, either in a condemning way or bc they can then see) will make the point better than deliberately offending, and you still have a…well, if not a friend, at least not an enemy

 

[bbyrd009]

It does not change the Word of God. Believers are to strive to be perfect and holy in this life. Being made holy in conduct is a process (2 Corinthians 7:1). Remember, only Noah and his family were on the Ark. So you cannot walk by sight but by faith. Look at the Bible and nobody else. But are you going to do that? In other words, I would encourage you to stop quoting the popular preachers. Stop reading what others say and just read the Bible yourself and believe what it says at face value and ask God for the understanding. Don’t speak against what the Bible plainly says. For ask yourself: What is my motivation for not liking the word “perfect” in the Bible? Is it based upon purely honorable reasons so as to serve God or is it a selfish reason?

The Bible is a book that should change YOU, and you should not change the Bible when you don’t like what it says.

ha well wadr we do have passages about “do this, dont do that” right
give it your best shot imo, with my blessings even lol
be as holy and perfect as you can!

i say this so you wont feel too bad for too long when it crashes and burns ok

 

[Johann]

fwiw i used to have quite the problem with not offending them, until the anabaptists showed me how meticulously honoring some ridic mandate when in their company, but then acting like…well, a little child when in ones own culture (that the pious would eventually catch sight of, and be dismayed, either in a condemning way or bc they can then see) will make the point better than deliberately offending, and you still have a…well, if not a friend, at least not an enemy

Brother, this "love all, offend none" is not biblical, and we are to sharply rebuke, all the while examining ourselves, IF we are in the faith
J.

 

[bbyrd009]

Somehow, I think we have Hyper-Grace teachings with the Word of Faith Movement coupled with Passivism...."we have entered into His rest"

1Ki 8:46 If they sin against You--for there is no man who does not sin--and You are angry with them and deliver them to the enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the enemy's land, far or near;

Ecc 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous man upon earth who does good and never sins. [Isa_53:6; Rom_3:23]

....yet we have people here claiming sinless perfection, in word, thought and deed.

1Jn 2:1 MY LITTLE children, I write you these things so that you may not violate God's law and sin. But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate (One Who will intercede for us) with the Father--[it is] Jesus Christ [the all] righteous [upright, just, Who conforms to the Father's will in every purpose, thought, and action].

All scripture quotations from the AMPC.

i was there for the beginning of the WoF movement, went to RTilton’s cong, even moved to be closer to it…and look at him now. “Deranged” would be putting it kindly i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

May I assume you mean "perfect" as in relative?

maybe?
But imo if Yah had wanted us to be perfect as we are perfect, then that is what would be written; or iow Be perfect as I am perfect is coming from the One Who claims responsibility for creating evil too, right?
Anyway, attempts at sinless perfection a la JWism Sabbatarianism etc i run from that now, while also taking care to meticulously, to the point of absurdity if possible, follow, while in their culture, which happens more often than i would like lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Who's that?

ya, guess she hasnt been here lately…but its moot, as that forum is now basically defunct i guess

 

[Johann]

maybe?
But imo if Yah had wanted us to be perfect as we are perfect, then that is what would be written; or iow Be perfect as I am perfect is coming from the One Who claims responsibility for creating evil too, right?
Anyway, attempts at sinless perfection a la JWism Sabbatarianism etc i run from that now, while also taking care to meticulously, to the point of absurdity if possible, follow, while in their culture, which happens more often than i would like lol

By judging others we blind ourselves to our own evil and to the grace which others are just as entitled to as we are.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

When all is said and done, the life of faith is nothing if not an unending struggle of the spirit with every available weapon against the flesh.


A God who let us prove his existence would be an idol

Discipleship is not an offer that man makes to Christ.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Shalom
J.

 

[bbyrd009]

Brother, this "love all, offend none" is not biblical, and we are to sharply rebuke, all the while examining ourselves, IF we are in the faith
J.

well i would agree personally, but i have seen the power of meticulously not offending, while simultaneously demonstrating that you would rather be anywhere else, without being condescending or whatever? Just, when you are all smiling and effusive and manifesting the Spirit in your um milieu, creating joy etc, and then dead silent in theirs, w/o condemnation though, the point gets made much more impactfully, seems like anyway? Ive even seen pious ppl get pissed off, and they cant say why, really its priceless

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Brother, don't assume that I am "selective" in my bible studies.
What I "like" and don't "like"

I do because you don’t like the word “perfect” in the Bible like the rest of popular wide gate path Christianity teaches because they use 1 John 1:8 as an excuse to sin on some level (When that’s not what the verse is saying).

You copy and paste scholars and others and look to lexicons (scholar dictionaries) and look to commentaries to get your understanding.

You said to another poster, “I am super tired of super heroes knowing all the answers to life's questions, intellectually, self taught, having a form of godliness.....self sent, not God sent.”

First, why would you have a problem with Christians trying to be super heroes?
If one is not a hero then what other camp could they be in?
God only knows of two sides. The Lord talks about those who are lukewarm and says we rather we be hot or cold. There is no middle ground camp. God wants us to be on fire for Him in all His ways.
So it puzzles me why you say this if you believe all of what the Bible says.

Second, John said that the brethren he was writing to had the Anointing (the Spirit) and they did not need anyone to teach them.

1 John 2:27 (NKJV)​

“But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.”​

The Psalmist was able to recognize that he had more understanding than all his teachers (Therefore showing that there was something wrong with the popular scholarly view even in his time).

Psalms 119:99​

“I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.”​

The Bereans were more noble in that they received the word of God with readiness of mind BUT they searched the Scriptures to see whether those things be so.

Acts 17:11​

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”​

Meaning, the Bereans did not just blindly accept things from men but they SEARCHED the Scriptures themselves daily to see whether those things were so. They were self taught by the Spirit in searching the Scriptures and not just blindly following the scholars and the popular view.

In addition, you imply those who are for Sinless Perfection (like myself) have a form of godliness as mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:1-9. First, this again is wrong to even say this because you don’t know anything about my life or heart with God. Second, 2 Timothy 3:2-7 says,

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

When I read this, I cannot honestly say I fall into this category.

But you said in another thread, I quote:

“If we confess (ean homologōmen). Third-class condition again with ean and present active subjunctive of homologeō, “if we keep on confessing.” ...DAILY...Confession of sin to God and to one another (Jas_5:16) is urged throughout the N.T. from John the Baptist (Mar_1:5) on.​

Are you perfect and holy right now in your own esteem?​

We are clothed with the righteousness of Christ Jesus, yes, do Christians still commit acts of sin, yes.”​

Source:
1st problem with O.S.A.S.

This gets to the heart of why you don’t like the idea of the Bible’s teaching on being perfect.
You believe Christians still commit acts of sin. This to me sounds more like one having a form of godliness because one is still defending sin in their life (When God cannot agree with a person’s sin on any level because He is a holy, and righteous GOD).

Remember, it only took one sin by Adam for the fall to happen.
Ananias and Sapphira each committed one sin each and they were condemned to death by it.
So whether one justifies lots of sin or a little bit of sin is no real difference. It’s still a justification to sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Just one question for you, are you putting the Scriptures into daily practice or do you have this mere intellectual gnosis re the D'var?


1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
1Pe 4:9 Use hospitality one to another without grudging.
1Pe 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Have you suffered?

Jas 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Jas 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
Jas 3:3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
Jas 3:4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Jas 3:7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Jas 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Can you tame your tongue?

1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

No more warring in your soul?

Doing good works, as opposed to mere intellectual, stoical gnosis?


Jas 3:8 But the human tongue can be tamed by no man. It is a restless (undisciplined, irreconcilable) evil, full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9 With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men who were made in God's likeness!
MY LITTLE children, I write you these things so that you may not violate God's law and sin. But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate (One Who will intercede for us) with the Father--[it is] Jesus Christ [the all] righteous [upright, just, Who conforms to the Father's will in every purpose, thought, and action].


How are you going to "redefine" this portion of scripture?
What do you do IF you sin?
But you have NO sin to confess, do you?
Are you DOING what the scriptures commands us to do?

Matthew 25



All about putting the scriptures into daily practice, are you DOING it?


Jas 1:27 External religious worship [religion as it is expressed in outward acts] that is pure and unblemished in the sight of God the Father is this: to visit and help and care for the orphans and widows in their affliction and need, and to keep oneself unspotted and uncontaminated from the world.

Are you DOING what is commanded of us?

Jas 3:1 NOT MANY [of you] should become teachers (self-constituted censors and reprovers of others), my brethren, for you know that we [teachers] will be judged by a higher standard and with greater severity [than other people; thus we assume the greater accountability and the more condemnation].
Jas 3:2 For we all often stumble and fall and offend in many things. And if anyone does not offend in speech [never says the wrong things], he is a fully developed character and a perfect man, able to control his whole body and to curb his entire nature.

....you want to tell me you are "sinless" an able "teacher" not capable of offending "in many things?"

1Ki 8:46 If they sin against You--for there is no man who does not sin--and You are angry with them and deliver them to the enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the enemy's land, far or near;

Ecc 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous man upon earth who does good and never sins. [Isa_53:6; Rom_3:23]

Guess Solomon did not know what he is talking about

Rom 7....which you are going to deny...

Luk 22:46 And He said to them, Why do you sleep? Get up and pray that you may not enter [at all] into temptation.

Luk 6:46 Why do you call Me, Lord, Lord, and do not [practice] what I tell you?

Tit 2:14 Who gave Himself on our behalf that He might redeem us (purchase our freedom) from all iniquity and purify for Himself a people [to be peculiarly His own, people who are] eager and enthusiastic about [living a life that is good and filled with] beneficial deeds. [Deu_14:2; Psa_130:8; Eze_37:23]

Eph 2:10 For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

..........................................

Romans 14:4 says,
“Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.”

It is also written,

5 "Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.​

6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house." (Micah 7:5-6).​

In addition, would you believe me if I told you about my life? Well, trust needs to be earned. I confide in those who believe the Word of God as I do (Because they are going to encourage me to always do the right thing and not the wrong thing and they are not going to make excuses for sin). Furthermore, it does not matter if most of the whole world was not living correctly. God's Word is still the standard and the standard is not my life alone. God destroyed an entire world with a global flood except for eight people. We walk by faith and not by sight. I am not above God's Word in what it says anymore than you are. If the Bible tells me to be ye holy, or perfect that is something I have to accept (Whether I like it or not).

Christians also are in a Sanctification Process, as well. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Are you actually cleansing yourself from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit PERFECTING holiness in the FEAR of God? Again, every Christian should say “yes” to this kind of question. If not there is a big problem going on in that they are not believing God’s Word.

Saying that Christians still commit acts of sin goes against the truth of 2 Corinthians 7:1.
You cannot say you must sin again and yet also be on the road to holiness in cleansing yourself.
That would be like throwing poop around your house as you are trying to clean the house for your guests.

In addition, I have been talking on Christian forums since 2011. One thing I discovered is that when a person cannot really make their case with the Bible to defend their wrong belief, they then make it personal (as if my life is the standard when in reality the Bible is the standard of where we should build our faith). So my encouragement to you is stop looking to others and look to the Bible alone and ask God for the help in understanding it. Stop quoting men and or their commentaries, or lexicons, and just quote the Word of God.

May God bless you (even if we disagree on this topic).

 

[bbyrd009]

The Bereans were more noble in that they received the word of God with readiness of mind BUT they searched the Scriptures to see whether those things be so

ergo demonstrum the Bible cannot be Word, right

 

[RLT63]

well as near as i can tell the Esau comment came from you there? Same avatar anyway?
but fwiw i am bbyrd009 virtually everywhere on the interwebs
(and im pretty sure Yah does not hate Esau btw, or the Bible would say that)

Malachi 1:3. Romans 9:13 it does say that. Most people who’ve read it are aware of that