The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism
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What is the perfection to which we are directed by Jesus here?
| Mt 5:48 | Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. |
What did Paul say relating to this?
| "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1 |
bbyrd009
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maybe a similar handle or something? havent been there in years
a link might be intriguing at this point lol
didnt know about my relation to Esau then idt
RLT63
Well-Known Member
5 dead, more than a dozen injured at LGBTQ nightclub in Colorado
Sin is the breaking of the 10 Commandments. 1 John 3:4 What about the other two?
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Bible Highlighter
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Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
The words that I speak from God’s Word are for all who are able to receive them. I believe there is an age of accountability. When they reach that time, then the Lord will of course strive to get them to accept His Word. If a person knows what sin is and they sin and they reject God’s Word in this life, there is no hope for them. Do you believe in Universalism? This is the false belief that all people who have ever lived will be save (including the wicked). Is that what you believe?
So you believe that the culture influenced the Bible on the word “perfect”? If that is the case, then it doesn’t sound like you believe 2 Timothy 3:16 in that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. We are Christians because of what the Bible says. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). If there was even one error in your Bible, then how can you trust the rest of it? In other words, God’s Word is either all true, or it’s all false. I choose to believe God’s Word is all true (Every word of it). It’s how I have my faith. It’s how my life has been changed by the LORD.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
perfect. In addition to the explanation of this perfection in the Note on Mat_5:20, it may be remarked that it consists chiefly in Love, "the fulfilling of the law" and great likeness to God, as appears from the context, and the parallel Luk_6:36, which see (De Burgh). Gr. teleios [S# G5046: Mat_19:21, Rom_12:2, 1Co_2:6; 1Co_13:10; 1Co_14:20 (men). Eph_4:13, Php_3:15, *Col_1:28; Col_4:12, Heb_5:14 (full age). Heb_9:11, Jas_1:4; Jas_1:17; Jas_1:25; Jas_3:2, 1Jn_4:18]. T285, Mat_19:21; Mat_22:37-39, Gen_6:9; +Gen_17:1, Lev_8:36; *Lev_11:44; +Lev_19:2; *Lev_20:26; Lev_21:21, *>Deu_18:13; Deu_27:10, 1Ki_8:61, +2Ki_20:3, *Job_1:1; *Job_1:8; Job_2:3; Job_9:20-21, +*Psa_37:18 note, Psa_37:37; Psa_119:1 mg. +Pro_21:3 (T629). Pro_23:17, %Ecc_7:16, Son_8:10, Zep_3:13, *Luk_6:36; *Luk_6:40, Joh_17:23, 1Co_2:6; *1Co_10:31; 1Co_14:20 mg. +*2Co_7:1 (T501). *2Co_13:9; *2Co_13:11, Php_2:15; **Php_3:12-15, Col_1:28; *Col_4:12, 1Ti_4:12, Heb_5:14; Heb_6:1; *Heb_13:21, *Jas_1:4; **Jas_3:2, *1Pe_1:15; *1Pe_1:16; *1Pe_5:10, *2Pe_3:11; *2Pe_3:12, 1Jn_3:2, Jud_1:21, Rev_3:2; Rev_14:5.
Just to put it into context for you
Mat 5:48 You, therefore, must be perfect [growing into complete maturity of godliness in mind and character, having reached the proper height of virtue and integrity], as your heavenly Father is perfect. [Lev_19:2, Lev_19:18]
teleios
τέλειος
téleios; fem. teleía, neut. téleion, adj. from télos (G5056), goal, purpose. Finished, that which has reached its end, term, limit; hence, complete, full, wanting in nothing.
(I) Generally (Jas_1:4, Jas_1:17, Jas_1:25; 1Jn_4:18 [cf. Heb_9:11]; Sept.: Exo_12:5). Figuratively, in a moral sense, of persons (Mat_5:48 [cf. Luk_6:36]; Mat_19:21; Col_1:28; Col_4:12; Jas_1:4; Jas_3:2); the will of God (Rom_12:2; Sept.: Gen_6:9; 1Ki_11:4). When used in a moral sense referring to God's expectation of us, it means completely blameless. A "perfect gift" in Jas_1:17 means one that has all the necessary qualities. In Jas_1:4, "that ye may be perfect" means that you may keep yourself "unspotted from the world." It has a similar meaning in Mat_5:48; Mat_19:21; Rom_12:2; Col_1:28; Col_4:12; Jas_3:2.
(II) Specifically of persons meaning full age, adulthood, full-grown, of persons, meaning full-grown in mind and understanding (1Co_14:20); in knowledge of the truth (1Co_2:6; Php_3:15; Heb_5:14); in Christian faith and virtue (Eph_4:13). In the neut. tó téleion means the final destination of the believer, that is, heaven (1Co_13:10, as contrasted to the full age in knowledge and understanding in 1Co_13:11). This image of fully completed growth as contrasted with infancy and childhood underlies the ethical use of téleioi, being set over against the babes in Christ (1Co_2:6; 1Co_14:20; Eph_4:13-14; Php_3:15; Heb_5:14).
(III) Téleios can be used in a relative or absolute sense (Mat_5:48; Mat_19:21). God's perfection is absolute; man's is relative. The téleios is one who has attained moral maturity, the goal for which he was intended, namely, to be a man obedient in Christ.
(IV) Tó téleion, perfect, in the neut. means the complete one in contrast with tó ek mérous (ek [G1537], of; mérous [G3313], a part), that which is in part. Tó téleion, therefore, indicates the ultimate goal of heavenly perfection as contrasted with the immediate and merely partial experience of saints on earth (1Co_13:10). In 1Jn_4:18 hēteleía agápē ([G26], love), the perfect love, means the love which is mature, not lacking boldness or confidence and therefore not hampered by the insecurity or anxiety which are characteristic of immature love.
(V) Also generally, it means what is renowned or preeminent (Heb_9:11; Jas_1:25).
Deriv.: teleiótēs (G5047), completeness, perfection; teleióō (G5048), to complete, perfect; teleíōs (G5049), completely, without wavering, to the end.
Syn.: ártios (G739), fitted, complete, perfect; plḗrēs (G4134), complete, full; mestós (G3324), full; ámemptos (G273), irreproachable, blameless; áptaistos (G679), not stumbling, without transgression; holóklēros (G3648), entire, whole.
Téleios is not to be confused with anamártētos (G361), without sin or sinless.
Ant.: endeḗs (G1729), lacking, deficient.
You shall therefore be perfect. This perfection does not mean equality, but relates solely to resemblance. (423) However distant we are from the perfection of God, we are said to be perfect, as he is perfect, when we aim at the same object, which he presents to us in Himself. Should it be thought preferable, we may state it thus. There is no comparison here made between God and us: but the perfection of God means, first, that free and pure kindness, which is not induced by the expectation of gain; — and, secondly, that remarkable goodness, which contends with the malice and ingratitude of men. This appears more clearly from the words of Luke, Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful: for mercy is contrasted with a mercenary regard, which is founded on private advantage.
(423) “Ceste perfection ne signifie pas qu’il y ait une.equalite et mesme mesure, mais elle se rapporte seulement a quelque ressemblance ou ap-proche.” — “That perfection does not mean that there is an equality or thee same measure, but it relates solely to some resemblance or approach.”
Does perfect/teleios mean sinless perfection? Or, God forbid...Godhood?
J.
It shall help thee greatly to understand scripture
If thou mark not only what is spoken
Or written
But of whom
And to whom
With what words
At what time
Where
To what intent
With what circumstances
Considering what goeth before
And what followeth after
Miles Coverdale
As to the one isolated verse causing so much confusion...
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
What is the context?
As to "be imitators of me...."
Imitators of me (mimētai mou). In the principle of considerate love as so clearly shown in chapters 1 Corinthians 8-10 and in so far as (kathōs) Paul is himself an imitator of Christ. The preacher is a leader and is bound to set an example or pattern (tupos) for others (Tit_2:7). This verse clearly belongs to the preceding chapter and not to chapter 11.
...or...Verse 1 of chapter 11 probably goes better with chapter 10. Paul had just been speaking of how he tried to gauge all his actions in the light of their effect on others. Now he tells the Corinthians to imitate him, just as he also copied Christ. He renounced personal advantages and rights in order to help those about him. The Corinthians should do likewise, and not selfishly parade their freedoms in such a way as to hinder the gospel of Christ or offend the weak brother.
As we causes a weaker brother to stumble, we are sinning.
Teleios does not mean sinless perfection.
J.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
Was this your own study or somebody else’s?
In either case, it sounds like an elaborate way to undo what the Bible teaches on being perfect.
Another in this thread said it was a corruption in the text.
Your approach here simply is a different one because you don’t like what the Bible says.
Read 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, and Galatians 5:24.
Believe these verses!
Here is what I am saying...many are "feigning" themselves to be super holy on CF's...go visit them in their homes, and be ready for a shocking surprise...speaking from experience...
J.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
It does not change the Word of God. Believers are to strive to be perfect and holy in this life. Being made holy in conduct is a process (2 Corinthians 7:1). Remember, only Noah and his family were on the Ark. So you cannot walk by sight but by faith. Look at the Bible and nobody else. But are you going to do that? In other words, I would encourage you to stop quoting the popular preachers. Stop reading what others say and just read the Bible yourself and believe what it says at face value and ask God for the understanding. Don’t speak against what the Bible plainly says. For ask yourself: What is my motivation for not liking the word “perfect” in the Bible? Is it based upon purely honorable reasons so as to serve God or is it a selfish reason?
The Bible is a book that should change YOU, and you should not change the Bible when you don’t like what it says.
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I would not call sinless perfectionism a "heresy". That is going too far. Misguided thinking would fit better. While all Christians must strive to hate sin and love righteousness, Christians can and do sin, and God has provided a way to deal with that. The focus should always be on righteousness.
Bible Highlighter
Well-Known Member
The Bible clearly teaches us to be perfect, though. So it’s not misguided at all if one believes the Bible at face value.
Brother, don't assume that I am "selective" in my bible studies.
What I "like" and don't "like"
Just one question for you, are you putting the Scriptures into daily practice or do you have this mere intellectual gnosis re the D'var?
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
1Pe 4:9 Use hospitality one to another without grudging.
1Pe 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Have you suffered?
Jas 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Jas 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
Jas 3:3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
Jas 3:4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
Jas 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
Jas 3:7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Jas 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Jas 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Can you tame your tongue?
1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
No more warring in your soul?
Doing good works, as opposed to mere intellectual, stoical gnosis?
Jas 3:8 But the human tongue can be tamed by no man. It is a restless (undisciplined, irreconcilable) evil, full of deadly poison.
Jas 3:9 With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men who were made in God's likeness!
MY LITTLE children, I write you these things so that you may not violate God's law and sin. But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate (One Who will intercede for us) with the Father--[it is] Jesus Christ [the all] righteous [upright, just, Who conforms to the Father's will in every purpose, thought, and action].
How are you going to "redefine" this portion of scripture?
What do you do IF you sin?
But you have NO sin to confess, do you?
Are you DOING what the scriptures commands us to do?
Matthew 25
All about putting the scriptures into daily practice, are you DOING it?
Jas 1:27 External religious worship [religion as it is expressed in outward acts] that is pure and unblemished in the sight of God the Father is this: to visit and help and care for the orphans and widows in their affliction and need, and to keep oneself unspotted and uncontaminated from the world.
Are you DOING what is commanded of us?
Jas 3:1 NOT MANY [of you] should become teachers (self-constituted censors and reprovers of others), my brethren, for you know that we [teachers] will be judged by a higher standard and with greater severity [than other people; thus we assume the greater accountability and the more condemnation].
Jas 3:2 For we all often stumble and fall and offend in many things. And if anyone does not offend in speech [never says the wrong things], he is a fully developed character and a perfect man, able to control his whole body and to curb his entire nature.
....you want to tell me you are "sinless" an able "teacher" not capable of offending "in many things?"
1Ki 8:46 If they sin against You--for there is no man who does not sin--and You are angry with them and deliver them to the enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the enemy's land, far or near;
Ecc 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous man upon earth who does good and never sins. [Isa_53:6; Rom_3:23]
Guess Solomon did not know what he is talking about
Rom 7....which you are going to deny...
Luk 22:46 And He said to them, Why do you sleep? Get up and pray that you may not enter [at all] into temptation.
Luk 6:46 Why do you call Me, Lord, Lord, and do not [practice] what I tell you?
Tit 2:14 Who gave Himself on our behalf that He might redeem us (purchase our freedom) from all iniquity and purify for Himself a people [to be peculiarly His own, people who are] eager and enthusiastic about [living a life that is good and filled with] beneficial deeds. [Deu_14:2; Psa_130:8; Eze_37:23]
Eph 2:10 For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].
..........................................
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Somehow, I think we have Hyper-Grace teachings with the Word of Faith Movement coupled with Passivism...."we have entered into His rest"
1Ki 8:46 If they sin against You--for there is no man who does not sin--and You are angry with them and deliver them to the enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the enemy's land, far or near;
Ecc 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous man upon earth who does good and never sins. [Isa_53:6; Rom_3:23]
....yet we have people here claiming sinless perfection, in word, thought and deed.
1Jn 2:1 MY LITTLE children, I write you these things so that you may not violate God's law and sin. But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate (One Who will intercede for us) with the Father--[it is] Jesus Christ [the all] righteous [upright, just, Who conforms to the Father's will in every purpose, thought, and action].
All scripture quotations from the AMPC.
Of course the Bible teaches us to be perfect, and every Christian should strive for perfection. But even the apostle Paul did not claim that he had achieved perfection. However, when Christ comes at the Resurrection/Rapture we shall be perfected (1 John 3:1-3).
Fully concur
1Co 13:9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).
1Co 13:10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.
1Co 13:12 For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [by God].
Php 3:12 Not that I have now attained [this ideal], or have already been made perfect, but I press on to lay hold of (grasp) and make my own, that for which Christ Jesus (the Messiah) has laid hold of me and made me His own.
Php 3:13 I do not consider, brethren, that I have captured and made it my own [yet]; but one thing I do [it is my one aspiration]: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the [supreme and heavenly] prize to which God in Christ Jesus is calling us upward.
AMPC
I would advice caution against those who hold to sinless perfection already obtained in THIS life, whilst in the body, the end of the goal, no room for "pressing" "striving" "straining" "growing"
...and no place for the practical Imperatives as recorded in Scriptures.
Pro 30:12 There is a class of people who are pure in their own eyes, and yet are not washed from their own filth.
Pro 30:13 There is a class of people--oh, how lofty are their eyes and their raised eyelids!
Pro 30:14 There is a class of people whose teeth are as swords and whose fangs as knives, to devour the poor from the earth and the needy from among men.
Ecc 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous man upon earth who does good and never sins. [Isa_53:6; Rom_3:23]
1Ki 8:46 If they sin against You--for there is no man who does not sin--and You are angry with them and deliver them to the enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the enemy's land, far or near
J.
I don't believe the bible talks about us being sinLESS as long as we remain in the body (mentioned in my post above). Because John wrote that we all "have" sin. (Only Jesus "had" no sin.) But that doesn't mean we have to necessarily "commit" sin. John also wrote that whoever is born of God doth not sin. Perfect seems to be about being "spiritual", to be in the spirit, walking in the spirit. Bible says if we are walking in the spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We start out as carnal babes but want to grow to be "you who are spiritual"...to be as Jesus was in the world.
I see two stages of the new birth in scripture.....two bodies of water to get across - first the Red Sea, then the Jordan River in order to reach the Land of Promise. (Even natural birth mirrors this, as God has written the story in His creation....two obstacles to overcome, first the closed cervix, then the narrow birth canal.) The gates of salvation is a two leaved gate. Also in the OT we see Christ is both the cornerstone as well as the capstone which completes the work that He began. The hands that laid the foundation of the house will also finish it (Zech 4). In Hebrews it talks about leaving the foundation and going on to perfection in order to grow.
I wonder if it's as though we're only really "conceived" in the beginning, though all the promises are imputed to us. "That which was conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" But Mary didn't actually give birth to "Christ in her" until later. Christ is being formed in us...Paul saying he was in labour again until Christ be formed in them.
So there seems to be a lot of scriptural support for this concept of being perfected. How was the captain of our salvation perfected? Through the things which He suffered. And we are to follow in His footsteps, dying to ourselves, to our fallen flesh nature...Jesus is our forerunner (the Breaker who breaks through the iron and brass gates of salvation - Ps 107:16, Is 45:2, Mic 2:13 - precious, wonderful word! ) and example that we are to follow.
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