The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,869
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism




How can a heresy be ‘godly’? In short, it can’t. Godliness is about conformity to sound doctrine (Titus 2:1). However, most cases of (reasonably convincing) false teaching will consist of biblical truths that have been skewed in some way. The ingredients are good, but the recipe is incomplete or else has had unwelcome things added, and the result is a theological and practical mess.

Sinless Perfectionism is a doctrine like that. In short, it holds that it is possible for Christians to completely defeat sin in the present life and to live holy lives like Jesus did. At a glance, it makes a lot of sense. Jesus came to save us from sin. He died for our sins on the cross and he sent his Holy Spirit to empower his people to overcome sin and to live obedient, righteous lives in the present (Titus 2:11-14). Christians should have the highest aspirations for living holy lives and rejecting all sin.

Sinless Perfectionism is Unbiblical
However, the Bible also says that ‘If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us’ (1 John 1:8). It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with sinful desires (Galatians 5:16-17). Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses (James 1:13-15). That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.

Sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.


There is a much-repeated (but possibly untrue) story about the 19th century Baptist preacher C.H. Spurgeon in which he debunked perfectionism in a memorable way.[1]

Spurgeon was at a conference where a preacher taught perfectionism in an outspoken manner and even claimed to have reached a state of sinless perfection himself. Spurgeon didn’t challenge him on the spot. Instead, the next morning he poured a pitcher of milk over the man’s head, to which the ‘perfectionist’ responded with the kind of rage and hostility that you’d expect from any sinner. Perfectionism debunked.

We like this story. It’s funny to hear of false teaching being exposed in an amusing way. But I suspect that our reaction is far too smug. It betrays an attitude of self-assurance at precisely the point where we should feel our greatest need. It demonstrates a disturbing lack of concern about the fact that we sin and that our sin is deeply offensive to God. When we remember this then it’s impossible to gleefully say in our hearts: “you stupid perfectionists—of course we all sin!” Are we pleased with the situation? Have we forgotten what sin is? Even though we know that it’s false, shouldn’t we wish that sinless perfectionism were true? Don’t you long to be free of sin?

Spiritual Complacency is Unbiblical Too
If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it is the sin of spiritual complacency. It’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability. It’s acceptance that sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that. It’s responding to occasions of sin by almost justifying it with glib lines like: “we know that we all sin.” That is a ghastly attitude for a Christian to have and it needs to be challenged.

If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability—sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that.


It is easy for me to criticise sinless perfectionism because I don’t personally know any Christians who struggle with this doctrine. However, I dare say that I know an entire evangelical culture that is complacent about sin. We’ve forgotten that sin is ugly and grotesque; the complete opposite to righteousness. We’ve forgotten that God’s will for our lives is that we be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:3). We’ve forgotten that what Christians look forward to above all else is Jesus returning to take away our sin completely. We’ve forgotten that anyone who truly desires that day to come will be obsessed with living a holy life now (1 John 3:2-3).

Jesus taught that Christians would ‘hunger and thirst’ after righteousness (Matthew 5:6). Imagine a man who has been deprived of food and water for far too long. Hunger and thirst are not just a thought in his head, but all-encompassing desires that cannot be ignored. His whole body cries out for sustenance! He will never – can never – be satisfied until his desire is satiated. Is our hunger for righteousness like that? That’s what perfectionism (at its best) gets right. It desires to be without sin. That is a profoundly godly ambition, and one that all Christians should share. We recognise that we will inevitably fall short. But we are not happy about it.

Come Lord Jesus!

I have tried this myself with these "sinless perfection giants"...just say anything untoward, and a reaction you'll get, maybe we should, like Spurgeon, pour milk on their heads.

J.
 

Bible Highlighter

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2022
4,767
989
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,869
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
You and I have bumped heads in the past, I don't agree with you and your doctrines, same as you don't agree with me and my doctrines.
Yes?
Are you a Wesleyan, or adhere to the doctrines of Wesley?

On second thought, don't answer.
J.
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,869
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
You and I have bumped heads in the past, I don't agree with you and your doctrines, same as you don't agree with me and my doctrines.
Yes?
Are you a Wesleyan, or adhere to the doctrines of Wesley?

On second thought, don't answer.
J.
 

Bible Highlighter

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2022
4,767
989
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You and I have bumped heads in the past, I don't agree with you and your doctrines, same as you don't agree with me and my doctrines.
Yes?
The problem is that you are not believing the Bible as it is plainly written. You either have to play the original languages game to undo what the Bible says in English or you have to simply ignore the Bible in many places on this topic. I am simple. I just read the Bible as it exists in my own language and I believe it. So I challenge you to look at the verses I presented in the thread link I provided you. You cannot in good conscience repeatedly twist the Bible to your preferences or thinking.


Are you a Wesleyan, or adhere to the doctrines of Wesley?
Not into Wesley. I just follow the Bible in what it says.

On second thought, don't answer.
J.
Too late. I already did.
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,869
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Brother, don't tell me what to read, and what not to read, yes?
J.
Real perfectionism was taught by John Wesley and his followers, and also by Charles Finney and some influenced by him. Wesleyans have called this doctrine “Christian Perfection,” and connected it with the experience of a “second work of grace” after regeneration which essentially negates the power of the old sinful nature in the believer. Finney (whose views developed into so-called “Oberlin perfectionism,” named after the college where he taught} also believed that the believer in Christ can live in a state of sinless perfection, although he approached the issue in a different way. The distinction between Wesleyan and Oberlin perfectionism could be simplified (perhaps oversimplified) by saying that Wesley emphasized the work of God in the perfecting of a life, and Finney gave weight to the ability of man to obey God’s law. In either version of the doctrine, sinless perfection asserts that Christians can live sinless lives. Except for the very few who regard themselves as Wesleyan, Fundamentalists do not teach this doctrine.

However, many who believe in revival do believe in the power of Christ to free us from the power of sin. While not saying that anyone has reached the point where they never sin, they do affirm the Bible teaching that Jesus saves us from sin’s power as well as its penalty. Victory over our sinful nature, and over sins in our lives that have often defeated us, is achieved by faith in Christ, and not simply by redoubled human effort. Those who oppose this teaching (and falsely label it “sinless perfection”) beg a few intriguing questions.

IS IT PERMISSABLE FOR A CHRISTIAN TO SIN?
To sound the alarm because somebody calls on believers to give up their sins certainly is an odd reaction in the light of the New Testament.

“Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?” asks the Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit. The answer is, “God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:1-2). He then asserts that “Sin shall not have dominon over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace…Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness,” (Romans 6:14 and 18). Paul also wrote, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not,” (I Corinthians 15:34). Paul teaches us that sinning is unacceptable behavior, and that Christians are free from it. We notice that he does not say that we are free of sin, although he does say that we are free from sin (See also Romans 6:22 and 8:2).

The Apostle John tells us in I John 1:8 that, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,” but then he begins the next chapter with the words, “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.” In spite of the fact that a Christian will sin, he is told emphatically not to sin. Although provision has been made through Christ for the keeping of our souls when we do sin, we are commanded to refrain from sinning. When we read I John 2:1, where we are assured that, “If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ,” we are not being encouraged to go ahead and sin. As we have noted, the same verse says, “Sin not.” The exhortation is like the one a flight attendant gives the passengers of an airliner before takeoff when he says, “In the event of an emergency, your seat cushion can be used as a floatation device.” The safety provision is for “just-in-case.” It doesn’t imply that people should plan on using it.

In the chapter where the adulteress is told, “Go, and sin no more,” we read the words of Jesus promising, “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed” (John 8). The emancipation of which He speaks is liberation from slavery to sin (“Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin,” verses 31-36). Clearly, the Lord Jesus does more for the sinner than rescue him from Hell. He releases him from captivity to sin. So saved people are never encouraged to go ahead and sin. They are exhorted not to sin.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH PERFECTION?
To a reader of the Bible, it is strange to put the word “perfection” in a bad light. Have we forgotten how the scriptures use the term “perfect” in regard to godly people?

“Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations…” (Genesis 6:9).

“I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.” (Genesis 17:1)

“Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.” (Deuteronomy 18:13)

“…that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God…” (Job 1:1)

“Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments…” (I Kings 8:61).

“Asa’s heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.” (I Kings 15:14)

“…the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him.” (II Chronicles 16:9)

“Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.” (Psalm 37:37)

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)

“If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor…” (Matthew 19:21).

“…we speak wisdom among them that are perfect…” (I Corinthians 2:6).

“Be perfect…” (II Corinthians 13:11).

“…that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus…” (Colossians 1:28).

“That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (II Timothy 3:17)

Although the Hebrew and Greek words translated “perfect” in the English Bible have the idea of completeness rather than flawlessness, we cannot miss the fact that God wants us to be fully devoted to Him. He wants all-out servants. He wants us to want to be all we can be for Him. There is nothing wrong with desiring perfection, and the Bible encourages us to have such a desire.

CAN WE LIVE HOLY LIVES?
The point many of the critics are missing is that the Lord has shown us the way to live holy lives, although many Christians are not living this way. Notice the questions at the beginning of Galatians 3.

“O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

How are we to live the Christian life? Is it by the flesh or by the Spirit? Is it by works or by faith? Behind these questions is one suggested by the previous chapter, “Is the Christian life lived by law or by grace?” The answers to these questions given by the book of Galatians are the same as the answer to the question of how a sinner is justified before God. He is justified by God’s grace, through his faith, by the power of the Holy Spirit. In Galatians, grace/ faith/Spirit produces liberty; and law/works/flesh produces bondage. These formulas are true both for justification and for sanctification, for salvation and Christian living. Galatians 2:16 says that, “A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.” Galatians 2:19-20 says that we, “Live unto God…by the faith of the Son of God.” We live for the Lord the same way that we were converted. We trust in Christ and what He did for us on the cross and at the empty tomb for the power to live for Him Who died for us.

Many have the impression that people become obedient Christians about the same way that dogs are trained to obey their masters. We learn new habits and make them habitual by practice. Christian growth is pictured as occurring through training and learning. But this is not really the way it works, and it is not really Christian living. It is the law-works-flesh formula, the way to bondage. Training our flesh to behave in a Christian way is not Christian growth. Just hearing sermons and learning verses, and then disciplining ourselves to live according to the rules, will not bring us the victory we want nor the liberty Christ came to give us. The holy life is obtained only by trusting Christ for victory, and relying on the Spirit for power to overcome the flesh. Not that learning the Word of God and practicing self-denial and discipline have no part in a holy life; it is just that they are not enough to bring about the situation where Christ is living through us (as in Galatians 2:20 and 4:19).

Once a college student who had attended a series of meetings with me where an evangelist had preached some helpful sermons on Romans 6, asked me if he would have once-and-for-all, final victory over the downward pull of the flesh if he just made the decision to “reckon” himself dead to sin and alive to God. “Would the struggle be over?” he asked. I thought about it, and said, “No. The challenge of the flesh is not ended by claiming victory. Trusting Christ for victory is not about ending the war; it’s about how you fight the battle.” And I was right. We don’t get holier by trying harder; we win the battle with sin by trusting more! Every time we trust Jesus rather than ourselves, we win!

From the same article, Christians slip up daily, in word, thought and deed, so are you.
Hence my question which you have not answered...do you hold to the doctrines of Wesley?
J.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keturah

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism




How can a heresy be ‘godly’? In short, it can’t. Godliness is about conformity to sound doctrine (Titus 2:1). However, most cases of (reasonably convincing) false teaching will consist of biblical truths that have been skewed in some way. The ingredients are good, but the recipe is incomplete or else has had unwelcome things added, and the result is a theological and practical mess.

Sinless Perfectionism is a doctrine like that. In short, it holds that it is possible for Christians to completely defeat sin in the present life and to live holy lives like Jesus did. At a glance, it makes a lot of sense. Jesus came to save us from sin. He died for our sins on the cross and he sent his Holy Spirit to empower his people to overcome sin and to live obedient, righteous lives in the present (Titus 2:11-14). Christians should have the highest aspirations for living holy lives and rejecting all sin.

Sinless Perfectionism is Unbiblical
However, the Bible also says that ‘If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us’ (1 John 1:8). It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with sinful desires (Galatians 5:16-17). Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses (James 1:13-15). That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.

Sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.


There is a much-repeated (but possibly untrue) story about the 19th century Baptist preacher C.H. Spurgeon in which he debunked perfectionism in a memorable way.[1]

Spurgeon was at a conference where a preacher taught perfectionism in an outspoken manner and even claimed to have reached a state of sinless perfection himself. Spurgeon didn’t challenge him on the spot. Instead, the next morning he poured a pitcher of milk over the man’s head, to which the ‘perfectionist’ responded with the kind of rage and hostility that you’d expect from any sinner. Perfectionism debunked.

We like this story. It’s funny to hear of false teaching being exposed in an amusing way. But I suspect that our reaction is far too smug. It betrays an attitude of self-assurance at precisely the point where we should feel our greatest need. It demonstrates a disturbing lack of concern about the fact that we sin and that our sin is deeply offensive to God. When we remember this then it’s impossible to gleefully say in our hearts: “you stupid perfectionists—of course we all sin!” Are we pleased with the situation? Have we forgotten what sin is? Even though we know that it’s false, shouldn’t we wish that sinless perfectionism were true? Don’t you long to be free of sin?

Spiritual Complacency is Unbiblical Too
If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it is the sin of spiritual complacency. It’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability. It’s acceptance that sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that. It’s responding to occasions of sin by almost justifying it with glib lines like: “we know that we all sin.” That is a ghastly attitude for a Christian to have and it needs to be challenged.

If there is an equal and opposite error to sinless perfectionism then it’s shrugging your shoulders at sin’s inevitability—sin is just part of life, and I’m OK with that.


It is easy for me to criticise sinless perfectionism because I don’t personally know any Christians who struggle with this doctrine. However, I dare say that I know an entire evangelical culture that is complacent about sin. We’ve forgotten that sin is ugly and grotesque; the complete opposite to righteousness. We’ve forgotten that God’s will for our lives is that we be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:3). We’ve forgotten that what Christians look forward to above all else is Jesus returning to take away our sin completely. We’ve forgotten that anyone who truly desires that day to come will be obsessed with living a holy life now (1 John 3:2-3).

Jesus taught that Christians would ‘hunger and thirst’ after righteousness (Matthew 5:6). Imagine a man who has been deprived of food and water for far too long. Hunger and thirst are not just a thought in his head, but all-encompassing desires that cannot be ignored. His whole body cries out for sustenance! He will never – can never – be satisfied until his desire is satiated. Is our hunger for righteousness like that? That’s what perfectionism (at its best) gets right. It desires to be without sin. That is a profoundly godly ambition, and one that all Christians should share. We recognise that we will inevitably fall short. But we are not happy about it.

Come Lord Jesus!

I have tried this myself with these "sinless perfection giants"...just say anything untoward, and a reaction you'll get, maybe we should, like Spurgeon, pour milk on their heads.

J.
ty Johann, this is awesome
little kids “sin” all the time, and they get a pass, huh
i would take this even further, and recommend running from a believer who wants to constantly discuss sin, rather than forgiveness, which might be to far dunno, but i have even devised a little test wherein i seek to commit some “sin” in their presence to see if they will overlook a matter or condemn. I recommend it heartily. Prolly bonus points for showing them some kind of love, a hug or whatever, dunno, (i was raised by wolves), rather than the finger? lol
 

Bible Highlighter

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2022
4,767
989
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Real perfectionism was taught by John Wesley and his followers, and also by Charles Finney and some influenced by him. Wesleyans have called this doctrine “Christian Perfection,” and connected it with the experience of a “second work of grace” after regeneration which essentially negates the power of the old sinful nature in the believer. Finney (whose views developed into so-called “Oberlin perfectionism,” named after the college where he taught} also believed that the believer in Christ can live in a state of sinless perfection, although he approached the issue in a different way. The distinction between Wesleyan and Oberlin perfectionism could be simplified (perhaps oversimplified) by saying that Wesley emphasized the work of God in the perfecting of a life, and Finney gave weight to the ability of man to obey God’s law. In either version of the doctrine, sinless perfection asserts that Christians can live sinless lives. Except for the very few who regard themselves as Wesleyan, Fundamentalists do not teach this doctrine.

However, many who believe in revival do believe in the power of Christ to free us from the power of sin. While not saying that anyone has reached the point where they never sin, they do affirm the Bible teaching that Jesus saves us from sin’s power as well as its penalty. Victory over our sinful nature, and over sins in our lives that have often defeated us, is achieved by faith in Christ, and not simply by redoubled human effort. Those who oppose this teaching (and falsely label it “sinless perfection”) beg a few intriguing questions.

IS IT PERMISSABLE FOR A CHRISTIAN TO SIN?
To sound the alarm because somebody calls on believers to give up their sins certainly is an odd reaction in the light of the New Testament.

“Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?” asks the Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit. The answer is, “God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” (Romans 6:1-2). He then asserts that “Sin shall not have dominon over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace…Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness,” (Romans 6:14 and 18). Paul also wrote, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not,” (I Corinthians 15:34). Paul teaches us that sinning is unacceptable behavior, and that Christians are free from it. We notice that he does not say that we are free of sin, although he does say that we are free from sin (See also Romans 6:22 and 8:2).

The Apostle John tells us in I John 1:8 that, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,” but then he begins the next chapter with the words, “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.” In spite of the fact that a Christian will sin, he is told emphatically not to sin. Although provision has been made through Christ for the keeping of our souls when we do sin, we are commanded to refrain from sinning. When we read I John 2:1, where we are assured that, “If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ,” we are not being encouraged to go ahead and sin. As we have noted, the same verse says, “Sin not.” The exhortation is like the one a flight attendant gives the passengers of an airliner before takeoff when he says, “In the event of an emergency, your seat cushion can be used as a floatation device.” The safety provision is for “just-in-case.” It doesn’t imply that people should plan on using it.

In the chapter where the adulteress is told, “Go, and sin no more,” we read the words of Jesus promising, “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed” (John 8). The emancipation of which He speaks is liberation from slavery to sin (“Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin,” verses 31-36). Clearly, the Lord Jesus does more for the sinner than rescue him from Hell. He releases him from captivity to sin. So saved people are never encouraged to go ahead and sin. They are exhorted not to sin.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH PERFECTION?
To a reader of the Bible, it is strange to put the word “perfection” in a bad light. Have we forgotten how the scriptures use the term “perfect” in regard to godly people?

“Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations…” (Genesis 6:9).

“I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.” (Genesis 17:1)

“Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.” (Deuteronomy 18:13)

“…that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God…” (Job 1:1)

“Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments…” (I Kings 8:61).

“Asa’s heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.” (I Kings 15:14)

“…the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him.” (II Chronicles 16:9)

“Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.” (Psalm 37:37)

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)

“If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor…” (Matthew 19:21).

“…we speak wisdom among them that are perfect…” (I Corinthians 2:6).

“Be perfect…” (II Corinthians 13:11).

“…that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus…” (Colossians 1:28).

“That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (II Timothy 3:17)

Although the Hebrew and Greek words translated “perfect” in the English Bible have the idea of completeness rather than flawlessness, we cannot miss the fact that God wants us to be fully devoted to Him. He wants all-out servants. He wants us to want to be all we can be for Him. There is nothing wrong with desiring perfection, and the Bible encourages us to have such a desire.

CAN WE LIVE HOLY LIVES?
The point many of the critics are missing is that the Lord has shown us the way to live holy lives, although many Christians are not living this way. Notice the questions at the beginning of Galatians 3.

“O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

How are we to live the Christian life? Is it by the flesh or by the Spirit? Is it by works or by faith? Behind these questions is one suggested by the previous chapter, “Is the Christian life lived by law or by grace?” The answers to these questions given by the book of Galatians are the same as the answer to the question of how a sinner is justified before God. He is justified by God’s grace, through his faith, by the power of the Holy Spirit. In Galatians, grace/ faith/Spirit produces liberty; and law/works/flesh produces bondage. These formulas are true both for justification and for sanctification, for salvation and Christian living. Galatians 2:16 says that, “A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.” Galatians 2:19-20 says that we, “Live unto God…by the faith of the Son of God.” We live for the Lord the same way that we were converted. We trust in Christ and what He did for us on the cross and at the empty tomb for the power to live for Him Who died for us.

Many have the impression that people become obedient Christians about the same way that dogs are trained to obey their masters. We learn new habits and make them habitual by practice. Christian growth is pictured as occurring through training and learning. But this is not really the way it works, and it is not really Christian living. It is the law-works-flesh formula, the way to bondage. Training our flesh to behave in a Christian way is not Christian growth. Just hearing sermons and learning verses, and then disciplining ourselves to live according to the rules, will not bring us the victory we want nor the liberty Christ came to give us. The holy life is obtained only by trusting Christ for victory, and relying on the Spirit for power to overcome the flesh. Not that learning the Word of God and practicing self-denial and discipline have no part in a holy life; it is just that they are not enough to bring about the situation where Christ is living through us (as in Galatians 2:20 and 4:19).

Once a college student who had attended a series of meetings with me where an evangelist had preached some helpful sermons on Romans 6, asked me if he would have once-and-for-all, final victory over the downward pull of the flesh if he just made the decision to “reckon” himself dead to sin and alive to God. “Would the struggle be over?” he asked. I thought about it, and said, “No. The challenge of the flesh is not ended by claiming victory. Trusting Christ for victory is not about ending the war; it’s about how you fight the battle.” And I was right. We don’t get holier by trying harder; we win the battle with sin by trusting more! Every time we trust Jesus rather than ourselves, we win!

From the same article, Christians slip up daily, in word, thought and deed, so are you.
Hence my question which you have not answered...do you hold to the doctrines of Wesley?
J.
Okay. I am not into Wesley and I have no real interest in him. I know he was for holiness, but there are varying opinions about his beliefs. His life and beliefs really don’t interest me. The Bible interests me.

As for Galatians 3:3 saying being perfected by the flesh:

This is in reference to the problem of which I call “Circumcision Salvationism” (See: Acts 15:1, Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24, Galatians 5:2, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, etc.). This was the false belief that said you had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved.

As for perfection mentioned in the Bible. You either believe it or you don’t believe it.
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,869
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
The problem is that you are not believing the Bible as it is plainly written. You either have to play the original languages game to undo what the Bible says in English or you have to simply ignore the Bible in many places on this topic.
Another point, don't assume what I believe and what I don't believe re the Scriptures, you are missing the mark.

You work out your salvation with fear and trembling as I do mine
Yes?
J.
 
  • Love
Reactions: dhh712

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
The problem is that you are not believing the Bible as it is plainly written. You either have to play the original languages game to undo what the Bible says in English or you have to simply ignore the Bible in many places on this topic. I am simple. I just read the Bible as it exists in my own language and I believe it. So I challenge you to look at the verses I presented in the thread link I provided you. You cannot in good conscience repeatedly twist the Bible to your preferences or thinking.



Not into Wesley. I just follow the Bible in what it says.


Too late. I already did.
interesting how two ppl ostensibly seeking the same thing can have such opposing povs, huh? Guess ill have to ponder the link, out of time for now though. Have a good one
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann

Bible Highlighter

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2022
4,767
989
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
interesting how two ppl ostensibly seeking the same thing can have such opposing povs, huh? Guess ill have to ponder the link, out of time for now though. Have a good one
I am seeking to honor God’s Word in what it says. The Bible teaches us to be perfect, but he appears to have a problem with that.
He calls Sinless Perfection a heresy.
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,869
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
ty Johann, this is awesome
little kids “sin” all the time, and they get a pass, huh
i would take this even further, and recommend running from a believer who wants to constantly discuss sin, rather than forgiveness, which might be to far dunno, but i have even devised a little test wherein i seek to commit some “sin” in their presence to see if they will overlook a matter or condemn. I recommend it heartily. Prolly bonus points for showing them some kind of love, a hug or whatever, dunno, (i was raised by wolves), rather than the finger? lol
I was raised by the finger, and lived in the midst of wolves.
J.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,221
6,248
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
T

Sinless Perfectionism is a doctrine like that. In short, it holds that it is possible for Christians to completely defeat sin in the present life and to live holy lives like Jesus did.

Sinless perfection is a cunningly deceptive term and idea, created by the same Cross denying people who created the false narrative "OSAS".

These people have no understanding of the difference between the born again Spirit that exits "in Christ" were there is no sin... and the body and mind of a born again believer.
These deceivers read 1 John 3:9 that says the born again have no sin and won't continue in it..., and just look the other way and pretend that the born again do have their sin, and can't live a perfected discipleship, exactly as Paul lived it, as said that we are to, also.

These people will quote......>"that which i want to do, i can't do", as if that is all Paul ever taught, because that is all their heretic's commentaries taught them..... and now they want you to believe also that you can't get beyond your flesh and your sin consciousness.
But i tell you that you can and Paul teaches how and Jesus died on the Cross for you so that you CAN live a perfected discipleship and a holy life.


So, these cultists that teach this misunderstanding, because they do not understand REDEMPTION from SIN, and have not studied ALL that Paul teaches, = which is always their CASE.

Look at this verse, and notice what has happened to your SIN, if you are born again.

2 Corinthians 5:19

These heretics go about to establish their own righteousness, by works, and because this always FAILS, .. they then carnally conclude that a person can't become "the fullness of the stature of Christ" that all believers are to BECOME, in this LIFE, while they are ALIVE.

Paul teaches that all believers are to exist here.....>"CHRIST ALWAYS = gives me the VICTORY" .. over the world, the flesh and the devil".

So, these hyper- cultists do not understand nor do they have the power of Christ as the discipleship of a believer in full control, and that is why they always talk about sin, sinning, commandment keeping, and their consistent inability to live a perfected discipleship, or as Paul teaches...."as many as BE Perfect".
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Pearl

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,869
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
He calls Sinless Perfection a heresy.
Have you attained entire sanctification in this life?

Have you reached absolute perfection in this life?

If you did, you are going against the 13 Pauline epistles and what Paul still is teaching us...
2Pe 3:14 So, beloved, since you are expecting these things, be eager to be found by Him [at His coming] without spot or blemish and at peace [in serene confidence, free from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts].

Without spot and blameless (aspiloi kai amōmētoi). Predicate nominative after heurethēnai. See 2Pe_2:13 for position words spiloi kai mōmoi and 1Pe_1:19 for amōmos (so Jud_1:24) kai aspilos (so Jas_1:27). Amōmētos (old verbal of mōmaomai) only here in N.T. save some MSS. in Php_2:15.
Robertson
without spot, and blameless …] The words are nearly identical with those which describe the character of Christ as “a lamb without blemish and without spot” in 1Pe_1:19, and their re-appearance is a fresh link in the chain of evidence as to identity of authorship. They who expect the coming of Christ should be like Him in their lives. The first of the two words may be noticed as used also by St James (Jas_1:27).
Cambridge

found of him. Gr. euriskō (S# G2147, Mat_1:18). In His sight (Alford), at His coming; plainly implying a personal coming (JFB). 2Pe_3:10, Gen_5:24, Exo_12:19; Exo_22:8, Deu_18:10; Deu_22:28, 1Sa_25:28; 1Sa_26:18, *1Ki_1:52, Ezr_10:18, Psa_17:3; Psa_37:10, Pro_11:31; Pro_20:6; Pro_23:5; Pro_31:10, Isa_35:9, Jer_2:34; Jer_50:20, Eze_28:15, Dan_5:27, Zep_3:13, Mal_2:6, Mar_4:22, *Joh_3:21, Act_5:39; Act_24:5, *1Co_3:13-15; 1Co_4:2; 1Co_14:25; 1Co_15:15, *2Co_5:3, Gal_2:17, Eph_5:13, *Php_3:9, *1Pe_1:7; *1Pe_1:13; 1Pe_4:18, Rev_5:4; Rev_16:20.
in peace. Job_22:21, +*Psa_85:10, Pro_3:17, +*Mat_24:46, Luk_2:29; *Luk_12:43, *Rom_5:1; *1Th_5:13, +**Heb_12:14, 1Pe_1:2, Jud_1:2.
without spot. Gr. aspilos (S# G784, 1Ti_6:14). %2Pe_2:13, Num_19:20, Son_4:7, Eph_5:27, 1Ti_6:14, *+Jas_1:27, 1Pe_1:19, *1Jn_3:3, Rev_19:8-9.
blameless. Gr. amōmētos (S# G298, only here and Php_2:15). Luk_1:6; Luk_21:34, *1Co_1:8, Eph_1:4, Php_1:10; +*Php_2:15, *Col_1:22, *1Th_3:13; +*1Th_5:23, 1Ti_3:10, 2Ti_2:19, Tit_1:6-7, *1Jn_2:28-29, Jud_1:24, Rev_14:5.




2Pe 3:15 And consider that the long-suffering of our Lord [His slowness in avenging wrongs and judging the world] is salvation (that which is conducive to the soul's safety), even as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the spiritual insight given him,

2Pe 3:16 Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures.

2Pe 3:17 Let me warn you therefore, beloved, that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked [persons and] fall from your own [present] firm condition [your own steadfastness of mind].

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace (undeserved favor, spiritual strength) and recognition and knowledge and understanding of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (the Messiah). To Him [be] glory (honor, majesty, and splendor) both now and to the day of eternity. Amen (so be it)!
AMPC

Just as you want to honor and glorify the Father in rightly cutting straight the scriptures, don't you think I want to do the same?

I know of places where people are hungry for God's word, and even a page out of the bible is read and memorized.

Knowing the D'var intellectually is of no use, unless you live it out, practically, and this is the side of the gospel that is not much discussed.

The "other side" of the gospel, putting into practice what you already know.

But enough said
God bless
J.
 

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,869
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Sinless perfection is a cunningly deceptive term and idea, created by the same Cross denying people who created the false narrative "OSAS".

These people have no understanding of the difference between the born again Spirit that exits "in Christ" were there is no sin... and the body and mind of a born again believer.
These deceivers read 1 John 3:9 that says the born again have no sin and won't continue in it..., and just look the other way and pretend that the born again do have their sin, and can't live a perfected discipleship, exactly as Paul lived it, as said that we are to, also.

These people will quote......>"that which i want to do, i can't do", as if that is all Paul ever taught, because that is all their heretic's commentaries taught them..... and now they want you to believe also that you can't get beyond your flesh and your sin consciousness.
But i tell you that you can and Paul teaches how and Jesus died on the Cross for you so that you CAN live a perfected discipleship and a holy life.


So, these cultists that teach this misunderstanding, because they do not understand REDEMPTION from SIN, and have not studied ALL that Paul teaches, = which is always their CASE.

Look at this verse, and notice what has happened to your SIN, if you are born again.

2 Corinthians 5:19

These heretics go about to establish their own righteousness, by works, and because this always FAILS, .. they then carnally conclude that a person can't become "the fullness of the stature of Christ" that all believers are to BECOME, in this LIFE, while they are ALIVE.

Paul teaches that all believers are to exist here.....>"CHRIST ALWAYS = gives me the VICTORY" .. over the world, the flesh and the devil".

So, these hyper- cultists do not understand nor do they have the power of Christ as the discipleship of a believer in full control, and that is why they always talk about sin, sinning, commandment keeping, and their consistent inability to live a perfected discipleship, or as Paul teaches...."as many as BE Perfect".


What is the meaning of perfection in the Bible?
perfection in the Bible
ANSWER

The meaning of perfection in the Bible relates to a state of completeness or absolute wholeness. Biblical perfection involves freedom from fault, defect, or shortcoming. In the New Testament, a Greek term for “perfection” can also mean “maturity.” The Bible expresses perfection in at least three different contexts: the perfection of God, the perfection of Christ, and the perfection of humans.

Absolute perfection is a quality that belongs to God alone. Yet only in Matthew 5:48 does the Bible explicitly state that God is by nature perfect: “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” As God is the perfect being, all that He does is perfect: “He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he” (Deuteronomy 32:4). His knowledge is perfect (Job 37:16). His way is perfect, and His Word is flawless: “As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 18:30). God’s laws are also perfect (Psalm 19:7; James 1:25). The apostle Paul describes God’s will as perfect: “Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will” (Romans 12:2).

In Hebrews 2:10, Scripture says that Jesus was made perfect through suffering: “God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation” (NLT).

As God incarnate, Jesus was already morally perfect. Christ’s suffering and death made Him “perfect” in the sense of qualifying to serve as the faultless high priest for God’s people (Hebrews 7:28). Only through suffering on the cross was Christ able to accomplish the work of redemption and become the perfect, complete, effective Savior of His people (Hebrews 5:9). Jesus was the perfect example of what it means to live in obedience to the Father’s will.

As we read in Matthew 5:48, God’s children are called to be perfect. This does not mean that humans can obtain the same holy perfection as God, for He alone is set apart in holiness (Isaiah 6:3; Psalm 99:9; Exodus 15:11). The call to be perfect is what the apostle Paul meant when he said, “Be imitators of God, as beloved children” (Ephesians 5:1, ESV). As children tend to imitate their parents, God’s children ought to imitate their Lord and reflect His perfection in the way they live.

The idea of spiritual maturity relates closely to the word perfection in the Bible. Humans are not perfect, but followers of Christ are encouraged to seek perfection: “And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing” (James 1:4, ESV). Paul said that he had not yet obtained perfection but had made it his goal: “I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me” (Philippians 3:12, NLT). Paul knew that perfection for believers would only be realized in the life to come (verses 13–21).

Perfection is a gift that humans receive through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ: “For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time. Under the old covenant, the priest stands and ministers before the altar day after day, offering the same sacrifices again and again, which can never take away sins. But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand. There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet. For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy” (Hebrews 10:10–14, NLT).

Another verse that is key to understanding perfection as it relates to the Christian life is 2 Corinthians 12:9: “But he said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.’” Through the grace God offers in Jesus Christ, Christians are perfected in weakness; through participating in the sufferings of Jesus Christ, they are conformed to His image (Matthew 5:10–12; 1 Peter 2:19–25; 3:14; 4:12–19).


Be ye therefore perfect ... - The Saviour concludes this part of the discourse by commanding his disciples to be “perfect.” This word commonly means “finished, complete, pure, holy.” Originally, it is applied to a piece of mechanism, as a machine that is complete in its parts. Applied to people, it refers to completeness of parts, or perfection, where no part is defective or wanting. Thus, Job Job_1:1 is said to be “perfect;” that is, not holy as God, or “sinless” - for fault is afterward found with him Job_9:20; Job_42:6; but his piety was “proportionate” - had a completeness of parts was consistent and regular. He exhibited his religion as a prince, a father, an individual, a benefactor of the poor. He was not merely a pious man in one place, but uniformly. He was consistent everywhere. See the notes at that passage. This is the meaning in Matthew. Be not religious merely in loving your friends and neighbors, but let your piety be shown in loving your enemies; imitate God; let your piety be “complete, proportionate, regular.” This every Christian may be; this every Christian must be.

1Co 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is [already] laid, which is Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
1Co 3:12 But if anyone builds upon the Foundation, whether it be with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1Co 3:13 The work of each [one] will become [plainly, openly] known (shown for what it is); for the day [of Christ] will disclose and declare it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test and critically appraise the character and worth of the work each person has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work which any person has built on this Foundation [any product of his efforts whatever] survives [this test], he will get his reward.
1Co 3:15 But if any person's work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire. [Job_23:10]

J.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keturah

Johann

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2022
8,588
4,869
113
63
Durban South Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
I am not perfect by any means but in God's eyes I am righteous because of the blood of the Lamb.
You are correct in saying we are not perfect yet.....

Php 3:12 Not that I have now attained [this ideal], or have already been made perfect, but I press on to lay hold of (grasp) and make my own, that for which Christ Jesus (the Messiah) has laid hold of me and made me His own.
Php 3:13 I do not consider, brethren, that I have captured and made it my own [yet]; but one thing I do [it is my one aspiration]: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal to win the [supreme and heavenly] prize to which God in Christ Jesus is calling us upward.
Php 3:15 So let those [of us] who are spiritually mature and full-grown have this mind and hold these convictions; and if in any respect you have a different attitude of mind, God will make that clear to you also.
Php 3:16 Only let us hold true to what we have already attained and walk and order our lives by that.

Yet some here have already obtained, in this life, in the sarki, absolute perfection-ism...diametrically opposed to what Paul is saying.

J.