The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[Johann]

To make a progress in holiness, or to perfect holiness in the fear of God, 2Co_7:1. This exhortation is given with most tender affection to those who were dearly beloved, and enforced by strong arguments, even the consideration of those exceedingly great and precious promises which were mentioned in the former chapter, and which the Corinthians had an interest in and a title to. The promises of God are strong inducements to sanctification, in both the branches thereof; namely,

1. The dying unto sin, or mortifying our lusts and corruptions: we must cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of flesh and spirit. Sin is filthiness, and there are defilements of body and mind. There are sins of the flesh, that are committed with the body, and sins of the spirit, spiritual wickednesses; and we must cleanse ourselves from the filthiness of both, for God is to be glorified both with body and soul.

2. The living unto righteousness and holiness. If we hope God is our Father, we must endeavour to be partakers of his holiness, to be holy as he is holy, and perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. We must be still perfecting holiness, and not be contented with sincerity (which is our gospel perfection), without aiming at sinless perfection, though we shall always come short of it while we are in this world; and this we must do in the fear of God, which is the root and principle of all religion, and there is no holiness without it. Note, Faith and hope in the promises of God must not destroy our fear of God, who taketh pleasure in those that fear him and hope in his mercy.
J.

 

[HIM]

Have you attained entire sanctification in this life?

Have you reached absolute perfection in this life?

If you did, you are going against the 13 Pauline epistles and what Paul still is teaching us...
2Pe 3:14 So, beloved, since you are expecting these things, be eager to be found by Him [at His coming] without spot or blemish and at peace [in serene confidence, free from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts].



But enough said
God bless
J.

If one has reached sinless perfection, they are going against the 13 Pauline Epistles? How so?

 

[HIM]

It seems rather to be understood of the struggles that are maintained between grace and corruption in sanctified souls. That there are remainders of indwelling corruption, even where there is a living principle of grace, is past dispute; that this corruption is daily breaking forth in sins of infirmity (such as are consistent with a state of grace) is no less certain.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, 1Jn_1:8, 1Jn_1:10. That true grace strives against these sins and corruptions, does not allow of them, hates them, mourns over them, groans under them as a burden, is likewise certain (Gal_5:17): The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other, so that you cannot do the things that you would. These are the truths which, I think, are contained in this discourse of the apostle. And his design is further to open the nature of sanctification, that it does not attain to a sinless perfection in this life; and therefore to quicken us to, and encourage us in, our conflicts with remaining corruptions.

Our case is not singular, that which we do sincerely strive against, shall not be laid to our charge, and through grace the victory is sure at last. The struggle here is like that between Jacob and Esau in the womb, between the Canaanites and Israelites in the land, between the house of Saul and the house of David; but great is the truth and will prevail. Understanding it thus, we may observe here,

1. What he complains of - the remainder of indwelling corruptions, which he here speaks of, to show that the law is insufficient to justify even a regenerate man, that the best man in the world hath enough in him to condemn him, if God should deal with him according to the law, which is not the fault of the law, but of our own corrupt nature, which cannot fulfil the law.

The repetition of the same things over and over again in this discourse shows how much Paul's heart was affected with what he wrote, and how deep his sentiments were. Observe the particulars of this complaint. (1.) I am carnal, sold under sin, Rom_7:14. He speaks of the Corinthians as carnal, 1Co_3:1.

Even where there is spiritual life there are remainders of carnal affections, and so far a man may be sold under sin; he does not sell himself to work wickedness, as Ahab did (1Ki_21:25), but he was sold by Adam when he sinned and fell - sold, as a poor slave that does his master's will against his own will - sold under sin, because conceived in iniquity and born in sin. (2.) What I would, that I do not; but what I hate, that do I, Rom_7:15. And to the same purport, Rom_7:19, Rom_7:21, When I would do good, evil is present with me. Such was the strength of corruptions, that he could not attain that perfection in holiness which he desired and breathed after.

Thus, while he was pressing forward towards perfection, yet he acknowledges that he had not already attained, neither was already perfect, Php_3:12.


Fain he would be free from all sin, and perfectly do the will of God, such was his settled judgment; but his corrupt nature drew him another way: it was like a clog, that checked and kept him down when he would have soared upward, like the bias in a bowl, which, when it is thrown straight, yet draws it aside.

(3.) In me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good, Rom_7:18. Here he explains himself concerning the corrupt nature, which he calls flesh; and as far as that goes there is no good to be expected, any more than one would expect good corn growing upon a rock, or on the sand which is by the sea-side. As the new nature, as far as that goes, cannot commit sin (1Jn_3:9), so the flesh, the old nature, as far as that goes, cannot perform a good duty. How should it?

For the flesh serveth the law of sin (Rom_7:25), it is under the conduct and government of that law; and, while it is so, it is not likely to do any good. The corrupt nature is elsewhere called flesh (Gen_6:3, Joh_3:6); and, though there may be good things dwelling in those that have this flesh, yet, as far as the flesh goes, there is no good, the flesh is not a subject capable of any good. (4.) I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, Rom_7:23. The corrupt and sinful inclination is here compared to a law, because it controlled and checked him in his good motions. It is said to be seated in his members, because, Christ having set up his throne in his heart, it was only the rebellious members of the body that were the instruments of sin - in the sensitive appetite; or we may take it more generally for all that corrupt nature which is the seat not only of sensual but of more refined lusts.

This wars against the law of the mind, the new nature; it draws the contrary way, drives on a contrary interest, which corrupt disposition and inclination are as great a burden and grief to the soul as the worst drudgery and captivity could be. It brings me into captivity. To the same purport (Rom_7:25), With the flesh I serve the law of sin; that is, the corrupt nature, the unregenerate part, is continually working towards sin.

(5.) His general complaint we have in Rom_7:24, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? The thing he complains of is a body of death; either the body of flesh, which is a mortal dying body (while we carry this body about with us, we shall be troubled with corruption; when we are dead, we shall be freed from sin, and not before), or the body of sin, the old man, the corrupt nature, which tends to death, that is, to the ruin of the soul.

Or, comparing it to a dead body, the touch of which was by the ceremonial law defiling, if actual transgressions be dead works (Heb_9:14), original corruption is a dead body. It was as troublesome to Paul as if he had had a dead body tied to him, which he must have carried about with him. This made him cry out, O wretched man that I am! A man that had learned in every state to be content yet complains thus of his corrupt nature.


Had I been required to speak of Paul, I should have said, “O blessed man that thou art, an ambassador of Christ, a favourite of heaven, a spiritual father of thousands!” But in his own account he was a wretched man, because of the corruption of nature, because he was not so good as he fain would be, had not yet attained, neither was already perfect. Thus miserably does he complain.......

Romans 7 huh? In Romans 8 verse 2 Paul claims he had been freed from the bondage of sin in which he called the Law of sin in chapter 7. Praise God!

 

[HIM]

I am not perfect by any means but in God's eyes I am righteous because of the blood of the Lamb.

(1John 3:7 [KJV])
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

 

[dhh712]

Brother, don't tell me what to read, and what not to read, yes?
J.

Yes, and BH would benefit--gain what he lacks--by reading those commentaries and articles which take the Bible as a whole. The pit that BH has fallen into is that he takes verses alone and does not look at them in the context of all of God's word. You have those who say they just read the Bible and the problem with that is--if you do not know how to take all of it and objectively interpret it in all of its entirety you may fall into one of the many heresies out there. At least BH's heresy is not one which denies the fundamentals of Christianity, but it is damaging to his adopted brothers and sisters for whom Jesus died.

To make my point more clear, you have brothers and sisters in the Lord who say--and they quote texts from Scripture just as BH is doing--that God says that if you fully believe in Him, you will have a healthy life, much wealth and everything you ask for from God. Like if your spouse is dying and you ask God to heal him or her and he or she dies, those who espouse this heresy will say that you just didn't pray hard enough or did not have enough faith. And exactly like BH, they will show you verses from God's word that will "prove" this heresy.

That is the problem with these boards where you generally have quick questions and answers: to properly explain a heresy which can be shown to be factual by certain verses taken out of context from God's word, you have to basically write up a small paper which takes a great many parts of God's word and show how the objective interpretation of all these parts negates what the heretic is saying. That is why commentaries on God's word, these works which God has blessed giving the right interpretation of what He is saying, is often the way one who does not have the time to dissect God's word himself (or whom God has not given the intellect by which to do this) can understand rightly what He reveals about Himself.

Which is also why I won't respond to these heretics who have their mind made up; I don't have the time to write a commentary or an article (and they won't read it anyway since they don't read those things) so there's just no point.

 

[Johann]

If one has reached sinless perfection, they are going against the 13 Pauline Epistles? How so?

Already show the scriptures, repeatedly...and for every verse quoted, there's a "redefinition" from what it says.
J.

 

[Johann]

Yes, and BH would benefit--gain what he lacks--by reading those commentaries and articles which take the Bible as a whole.

Brother, speaking of commentaries, which ones are you using as a secondary source?
J.

 

[Johann]

huh?

...sometimes it's better to just go on...
J.

 

[Johann]

Yes, and BH would benefit--gain what he lacks--by reading those commentaries and articles which take the Bible as a whole. The pit that BH has fallen into is that he takes verses alone and does not look at them in the context of all of God's word. You have those who say they just read the Bible and the problem with that is--if you do not know how to take all of it and objectively interpret it in all of its entirety you may fall into one of the many heresies out there. At least BH's heresy is not one which denies the fundamentals of Christianity, but it is damaging to his adopted brothers and sisters for whom Jesus died.

To make my point more clear, you have brothers and sisters in the Lord who say--and they quote texts from Scripture just as BH is doing--that God says that if you fully believe in Him, you will have a healthy life, much wealth and everything you ask for from God. Like if your spouse is dying and you ask God to heal him or her and he or she dies, those who espouse this heresy will say that you just didn't pray hard enough or did not have enough faith. And exactly like BH, they will show you verses from God's word that will "prove" this heresy.

That is the problem with these boards where you generally have quick questions and answers: to properly explain a heresy which can be shown to be factual by certain verses taken out of context from God's word, you have to basically write up a small paper which takes a great many parts of God's word and show how the objective interpretation of all these parts negates what the heretic is saying. That is why commentaries on God's word, these works which God has blessed giving the right interpretation of what He is saying, is often the way one who does not have the time to dissect God's word himself (or whom God has not given the intellect by which to do this) can understand rightly what He reveals about Himself.

Which is also why I won't respond to these heretics who have their mind made up; I don't have the time to write a commentary or an article (and they won't read it anyway since they don't read those things) so there's just no point.

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

12 and 15 seems like a "seemingly contradiction" to these sinless super giants, yet what is Paul saying in verse 12...


1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

1Ki 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

On these verses alone it is clear that there is no "sinless person on this planet" yet we have many here who makes a bold claim of reaching the end of the goal, entire sanctification, no more room for growth.

I am sure you would be in agreement with me that not even our brother Paul made that claim.

As to commentaries, you and I are not going to be popular from these sinless giants brother.

Shalom
J.

 

[Behold]

I have shown you our brother Paul did not reached absolute perfection in his life while IN THE BODY....

Paul said that he had not yet attained the resurrection from the dead.
He didnt say he had not attained the fullness of the stature of Christ.
He told us he kept the faith and finished the course.
And as a matter of fact, when He teaches that " Christ always gives me the Victory", and "i can do all things through Christ", he is showing you that he has, and he is teaching us how.

People like you, enjoy trying to give believes the idea, the false presumption, that Christ does not have the power to live His holy life through them.
The devil enjoys poeple like you , because you refuse to accept that Christ in you the hope of Glory can become, as Paul teaches, "the fullness of the stature of Christ, and as "many as be perfect'.....= in THIS life, as a believer.

You should not try to present the false idea and theology that a born again christian is going to be a sinning and confessing failure, until they die.
But, im sure you'll keep doing it., as you can only teach what has become your own discipleship.
So, you think everyone else is stuck there as well.

 

[Johann]

People like you, enjoy trying to give believes the idea, the false presumption, that Christ does not have the power to live His holy life through them.

Brother, be careful with "people like you."

If you have reached the end of sanctification, good for you.
If you have attained absolute sinless perfection in this life, while in the body, good for you, not being facetious with you.

The persons to whom it is written (Rom_1:7): To all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints; that is, to all the professing Christians that were in Rome, whether Jews or Gentiles originally, whether high or low, bond or free, learned or unlearned. Rich and poor meet together in Christ Jesus. Here is,

1. The privilege of Christians: They are beloved of God, they are members of that body which is beloved, which is God's Hephzibah, in which his delight is. We speak of God's love by his bounty and beneficence, and so he hath a common love to all mankind and a peculiar love for true believers; and between these there is a love he hath for all the body of visible Christians.

2. The duty of Christians; and that is to be holy, for hereunto are they called, called to be saints, called to salvation through sanctification. Saints, and only saints, are beloved of God with a special and peculiar love. Klētois hagiois - called saints, saints in profession; it were well if all that are called saints were saints indeed. Those that are called saints should labour to answer to the name; otherwise, though it is an honour and a privilege, yet it will be of little avail at the great day to have been called saints, if we be not really so.

He extends it in general to all the world: That all the world may become guilty before God. If the world likes in wickedness (1Jn_5:19), to be sure it is guilty. - May become guilty; that is, may be proved guilty, liable to punishment, all by nature children of wrath, Eph_2:3.


They must all plead guilty; those that stand most upon their own justification will certainly be cast. Guilty before God is a dreadful word, before an all-seeing God, that is not, nor can be, deceived in his judgment - before a just and righteous judge, who will by no means clear the guilty.


All are guilty, and therefore all have need of a righteousness wherein to appear before God. For all have sinned (Rom_3:23); all are sinners by nature, by practice, and have come short of the glory of God - have failed of that which is the chief end of man. Come short, as the archer comes short of the mark, as the runner comes short of the prize; so come short, as not only not to win, but to be great losers. Come short of the glory of God.

(1.) Come short of glorifying God. See Rom_1:21, They glorified him not as God. Man was placed at the head of the visible creation, actively to glorify that great Creator whom the inferior creatures could glorify only objectively; but man by sin comes short of this, and, instead of glorifying God, dishonours him. It is a very melancholy consideration, to look upon the children of men, who were made to glorify God, and to think how few there are that do it.

(2.) Come short of glorying before God. There is no boasting of innocency: if we go about to glory before God, to boast of any thing we are, or have, or do, this will be an everlasting estoppe - hat we have all sinned, and this will silence us. We may glory before men, who are short-sighted, and cannot search our hearts, - who are corrupt, as we are, and well enough pleased with sin; but there is no glorying before God, who cannot endure to look upon iniquity. (3.) Come short of being glorified by God. Come short of justification, or acceptance with God, which is glory begun - come short of the holiness or sanctification which is the glorious image of God upon man, and have overthrown all hopes and expectations of being glorified with God in heaven by any righteousness of their own. It is impossible now to get to heaven in the way of spotless innocency. That passage is blocked up. There is a cherub and a flaming sword set to keep that way to the tree of life.
M. Henry.

But if you are perfect, in word, thought and deed, well done.
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


J.

 

[Johann]

He didnt say he had not attained the fullness of the stature of Christ.

Incorrect.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Come in , [ kantanteesoomen (G2658) eis (G1519)] - rather, ’until we arrive the whole [ hoi (G3588) pantes (G3956)] of us at the unity,’ etc. Then the ministry will no longer be needed.
Faith, and of the knowledge. Unity of faith is found when all savingly and fully know [ epignooseoos (G1922)] Christ, the object of faith, as "the Son of God" (Eph_3:17; Eph_3:19; 2Pe_1:5).

Not even Paul thought he had fully "attained" (Php_3:12-14). What I keep on emphasizing, and you keep on denying........ Amidst the variety of gifts, and the multitude of members, the Church’s "faith" is ONE: as contrasted with "children ... carried about with EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE" (Eph_4:14).
Perfect man - `unto the full-grown man’ (1Co_2:6; Php_3:15; Heb_5:14); adult maturity. contrasted with "children" (Eph_4:14). Not ’perfect men;’ for the many members constitute but one Church joined to the one Christ.
Stature ... The standard ("measure") of spiritual "stature" is "the fullness of Christ;" i:e., which Christ has (Eph_1:23; Eph_3:19 : cf. Gal_4:19); that the body should be worthy of the Head, the perfect Christ.
JFB

Another point you are in error..........

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
’Not that I,’ etc. (let me not be misunderstood as saying that, etc.)

1. Attained - `obtained;’ namely, a perfect knowledge of Christ, the power of His death, the fellowship of His sufferings, and conformity to His death.
   
   You say Paul did.........
   
   
2. Either were already perfect - `or am already (spiritually) perfected’ [ teteleioomai (G5048)], crowned with the garland of victory, my course completed, and perfection absolutely reached. The image is that of a race-course (see 1Co_9:24; Heb_12:23).
3. I follow after - `I press on.’
   
   You don't need "to press on?

Apprehend ... apprehended - `If so be that I may lay hold on [ Katalaboo (G2638)] that (namely, the prize, Php_3:14) for obtaining which also I was laid hold on by Christ;’ namely, at my conversion (Son_1:4; 1Co_13:12).
Jesus. So ’Aleph (’) A, Vulgate. Omitted in B Delta G f g. Christ, the Author, is also the Finisher of His people’s ’race.’

We are not "little gods running around, still bickering and snapping at each other brother."
You have your calling, I have mine. Stay in your lane where your calling has found you, don't impose on me what I have come to know, experientially, what is truth, what not.

J.

 

[Johann]

(1John 3:7 [KJV])
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

He that doeth righteousness The Apostle shews here that newness of life is testified by good works; nor does that likeness of which he has spoken, that is between Christ and his members, appear, except by the fruits they bring forth; as though he had said, “Since it behooves us to be conformed to Christ, the truth and evidence of this must appear in our life.” The exhortation is the same with that of Paul in Galatians
“If ye live in the Spirit, walk also in the Spirit.”
(Gal_5:25)

For many would gladly persuade themselves that they have this righteousness buried in their hearts, while iniquity evidently occupies their feet, and hands, and tongue, and eyes.
Now while the Gnostics made great pretensions as to their knowledge, they were very careless about their personal lives.

Therefore, John adds, “Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.” There should be no confusion on this point—a man cannot have spiritual life and go on living in sin. On the other hand, a man can only practice righteousness through having the nature of Him who is righteous.

3:8 Some children are so like their parents that you couldn't lose them in a crowd. This is true of God's children and of the devil's children. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. Here again the thought is, “He who practices sin is of the devil.” The devil has been sinning (continuous, characteristic behavior) from the beginning, that is, from the first time that he did sin.

All his children follow him in this broad way. It should be added here that men become children of God through the new birth, but there is no birth in connection with the children of the devil. A man becomes a child of the devil simply by imitating his behavior, but no one is begotten as a child of the devil.

In contrast, the coming of the Lord Jesus was in order to destroy (or annul) the works of the devil. The Lord could have destroyed the devil with a single word, but instead of that, He came down to this world to suffer, bleed, and die that He might annul the works of the devil. If it cost the Savior so much to put away sin, what should be the attitude of those who have trusted Him as Savior?

3:9 Verse nine repeats the impossibility of one who has been born of God going on in sin.

Some Bible students think that this verse refers to the believer's new nature, and that while the old nature can and does sin, the new nature cannot sin. However, we believe that here again the apostle is contrasting the regenerate man with the unregenerate, and is speaking of constant or habitual behavior. The believer does not have the sin habit. He does not defiantly continue in sin.

Does it mean it is impossible for a believer to sin?
The reason is that His seed remains in him. There is considerable disagreement among Bible students as to the meaning of this latter expression also.

Some think that this seed refers to the new nature, others to the Holy Spirit, and still others to the word of God. All of these are true, and therefore are possible explanations. We take it that the seed refers to the new life which is imparted to the believer at the time of conversion. Here, then, is a statement that the divine life remains in the believer. He is eternally secure. Rather than being an excuse for the Christian to go out and sin, his eternal security is a guarantee he will not go on sinning.

He cannot sin habitually because he has been born of God. This divine relationship precludes the possibility of continuance in sin as a lifestyle.

From the connection between regeneration and the relinquishment of sin: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin. To be born of God is to be inwardly renewed, and restored to a holy integrity or rectitude of nature by the power of the Spirit of God.

Such a one committeth not sin, does not work iniquity nor practise disobedience, which is contrary to his new nature and the regenerate complexion of his spirit; for, as the apostle adds, his seed remaineth in him, either the word of God in its light and power remaineth in him (as 1Pe_1:23, Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever), or, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit; the spiritual seminal principle of holiness remaineth in him.

Renewing grace is an abiding principle. Religion, in the spring of it, is not an art, an acquired dexterity and skill, but a new nature. And thereupon the consequence is the regenerate person cannot sin.

That he cannot commit an act of sin, I suppose no judicious interpreter understands. This would be contrary to 1Jn_1:9, where it is made our duty to confess our sins, and supposed that our privilege thereupon is to have our sins forgiven.

He therefore cannot sin, in the sense in which the apostle says, he cannot commit sin. He cannot continue in the course and practice of sin. He cannot so sin as to denominate him a sinner in opposition to a saint or servant of God. Again, he cannot sin comparatively, as he did before he was born of God, and as others do that are not so.

And the reason is because he is born of God, which will amount to all this inhibition and impediment. 1. There is a light in his mind which shows him the evil and malignity of sin. 2. There is that bias upon his heart which disposes him to loathe and hate sin. 3. There is the spiritual seminal principle or disposition, that breaks the force and fulness of the sinful acts. They proceed not from such plenary power of corruption as they do in others, nor obtain that plenitude of heart, spirit, and consent, which they do in others.

The spirit lusteth against the flesh. And therefore in respect to such sin it may be said, It is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. It is not reckoned the person's sin, in the gospel account, where the bent and frame of the mind and spirit are against it.

Then, 4. There is a disposition for humiliation and repentance for sin, when it has been committed. He that is born of God cannot sin. Here we may call to mind the usual distinction of natural and moral impotency. The unregenerate person is morally unable for what is religiously good.

The regenerate person is happily disabled for sin. There is a restraint, an embargo (as we may say), laid upon his sinning powers.

It goes against him sedately and deliberately to sin. We usually say of a person of known integrity, “He cannot lie, he cannot cheat, and commit other enormities.”
How can I commit this great wickedness, and sin against God! Gen_39:9. And so those who persist in a sinful life sufficiently demonstrate that they are not born of God.

Hope you get the "thrust" of what is posted to you.
J.

 

[Johann]

The devil enjoys poeple like you

The satanas enjoys "poepols" like me?
J.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What about the doctrine of election, and I don't mean Calvin and TULIP.
I went through your list, disagree on some points.
Would you say the "old man/nature" is somehow surgically removed/cut out from the believer?
J.

Romans 6:6-7 says:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Galatians 2:20 says:
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 4:20-22 (NKJV) says:
20 “But you have not so learned Christ,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,”

Galatians 5:24
“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

Romans 8:13
”For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What about the doctrine of election, and I don't mean Calvin and TULIP.
I went through your list, disagree on some points.
Would you say the "old man/nature" is somehow surgically removed/cut out from the believer?
J.

You can make your calling and election sure by doing the following things according to Peter.

2 Peter 1:5-11 says:
5 “…add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”

 

[Johann]

Romans 6:6-7 says:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Galatians 2:20 says:
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 4:20-22 (NKJV) says:
20 “But you have not so learned Christ,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,”

Galatians 5:24
“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

Romans 8:13
”For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

Power for Holiness (5:16-25)
5:16 The believer should walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh. To walk in (or by) the Spirit is to allow Him to have His way. It is to remain in communion with Him. It is to make decisions in the light of His holiness. It is to be occupied with Christ, because the Spirit's ministry is to engage the believer with the Lord Jesus. When we thus walk in the Spirit, the flesh, or self-life, is treated as dead. We cannot be occupied at the same time with Christ and with sin.

Scofield says:
The problem of the Christian life is based on the fact that so long as the Christian lives in this world he is, so to speak, two trees—the old tree of the flesh, and the new tree of the divine nature implanted by the new birth; and the problem itself is, how to keep barren the old tree and to make fruitful the new tree. The problem is solved by walking in the Spirit.

This verse and those that follow show that the flesh is still present with the Christian; the idea of the eradication of the sinful nature is thus refuted.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The question I asked you, "is the sinful nature somehow eradicated out of the believer?"

5:17 The Spirit and the flesh are in constant conflict. God could have removed the fleshly nature from believers at the time of their conversion, but He did not choose to do so. Why? He wanted to keep them continually reminded of their own weakness; to keep them continually dependent on Christ, their Priest and Advocate; and to cause them to praise unceasingly the One who saved such worms.

Instead of removing the old nature, God gave us His own Holy Spirit to indwell us. God's Spirit and our flesh are perpetually at war, and will continue to be at war until we are taken home to heaven. The believer's part in the conflict is to yield to the Spirit.

J.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It seems rather to be understood of the struggles that are maintained between grace and corruption in sanctified souls. That there are remainders of indwelling corruption, even where there is a living principle of grace, is past dispute; that this corruption is daily breaking forth in sins of infirmity (such as are consistent with a state of grace) is no less certain.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, 1Jn_1:8, 1Jn_1:10. That true grace strives against these sins and corruptions, does not allow of them, hates them, mourns over them, groans under them as a burden, is likewise certain (Gal_5:17): The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other, so that you cannot do the things that you would. These are the truths which, I think, are contained in this discourse of the apostle. And his design is further to open the nature of sanctification, that it does not attain to a sinless perfection in this life; and therefore to quicken us to, and encourage us in, our conflicts with remaining corruptions.

Our case is not singular, that which we do sincerely strive against, shall not be laid to our charge, and through grace the victory is sure at last. The struggle here is like that between Jacob and Esau in the womb, between the Canaanites and Israelites in the land, between the house of Saul and the house of David; but great is the truth and will prevail. Understanding it thus, we may observe here,

1. What he complains of - the remainder of indwelling corruptions, which he here speaks of, to show that the law is insufficient to justify even a regenerate man, that the best man in the world hath enough in him to condemn him, if God should deal with him according to the law, which is not the fault of the law, but of our own corrupt nature, which cannot fulfil the law.

The repetition of the same things over and over again in this discourse shows how much Paul's heart was affected with what he wrote, and how deep his sentiments were. Observe the particulars of this complaint. (1.) I am carnal, sold under sin, Rom_7:14. He speaks of the Corinthians as carnal, 1Co_3:1.

Even where there is spiritual life there are remainders of carnal affections, and so far a man may be sold under sin; he does not sell himself to work wickedness, as Ahab did (1Ki_21:25), but he was sold by Adam when he sinned and fell - sold, as a poor slave that does his master's will against his own will - sold under sin, because conceived in iniquity and born in sin. (2.) What I would, that I do not; but what I hate, that do I, Rom_7:15. And to the same purport, Rom_7:19, Rom_7:21, When I would do good, evil is present with me. Such was the strength of corruptions, that he could not attain that perfection in holiness which he desired and breathed after.

Thus, while he was pressing forward towards perfection, yet he acknowledges that he had not already attained, neither was already perfect, Php_3:12.


Fain he would be free from all sin, and perfectly do the will of God, such was his settled judgment; but his corrupt nature drew him another way: it was like a clog, that checked and kept him down when he would have soared upward, like the bias in a bowl, which, when it is thrown straight, yet draws it aside.

(3.) In me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good, Rom_7:18. Here he explains himself concerning the corrupt nature, which he calls flesh; and as far as that goes there is no good to be expected, any more than one would expect good corn growing upon a rock, or on the sand which is by the sea-side. As the new nature, as far as that goes, cannot commit sin (1Jn_3:9), so the flesh, the old nature, as far as that goes, cannot perform a good duty. How should it?

For the flesh serveth the law of sin (Rom_7:25), it is under the conduct and government of that law; and, while it is so, it is not likely to do any good. The corrupt nature is elsewhere called flesh (Gen_6:3, Joh_3:6); and, though there may be good things dwelling in those that have this flesh, yet, as far as the flesh goes, there is no good, the flesh is not a subject capable of any good. (4.) I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, Rom_7:23. The corrupt and sinful inclination is here compared to a law, because it controlled and checked him in his good motions. It is said to be seated in his members, because, Christ having set up his throne in his heart, it was only the rebellious members of the body that were the instruments of sin - in the sensitive appetite; or we may take it more generally for all that corrupt nature which is the seat not only of sensual but of more refined lusts.

This wars against the law of the mind, the new nature; it draws the contrary way, drives on a contrary interest, which corrupt disposition and inclination are as great a burden and grief to the soul as the worst drudgery and captivity could be. It brings me into captivity. To the same purport (Rom_7:25), With the flesh I serve the law of sin; that is, the corrupt nature, the unregenerate part, is continually working towards sin.

(5.) His general complaint we have in Rom_7:24, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? The thing he complains of is a body of death; either the body of flesh, which is a mortal dying body (while we carry this body about with us, we shall be troubled with corruption; when we are dead, we shall be freed from sin, and not before), or the body of sin, the old man, the corrupt nature, which tends to death, that is, to the ruin of the soul.

Or, comparing it to a dead body, the touch of which was by the ceremonial law defiling, if actual transgressions be dead works (Heb_9:14), original corruption is a dead body. It was as troublesome to Paul as if he had had a dead body tied to him, which he must have carried about with him. This made him cry out, O wretched man that I am! A man that had learned in every state to be content yet complains thus of his corrupt nature.


Had I been required to speak of Paul, I should have said, “O blessed man that thou art, an ambassador of Christ, a favourite of heaven, a spiritual father of thousands!” But in his own account he was a wretched man, because of the corruption of nature, because he was not so good as he fain would be, had not yet attained, neither was already perfect. Thus miserably does he complain.......

This again sounds like another long winded commentary by somebody else with a bias without you really examining the Scriptures for yourself on the matter with the help of God. I would encourage you to stay away from commentaries by men. I have no real interest in debating a commentary that you provided by somebody else. If you want to share your thoughts with Scripture from your own personal study with God and asking for His help, then that would be another matter.

Anyways, Romans 7:14-24 is Paul relaying his past experience in struggling to keep the Old Law as a Pharisee before he knew Jesus Christ. For why would Paul ask the question: Who shall deliver me from this body of death if he knew Jesus already?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Power for Holiness (5:16-25)
5:16 The believer should walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh. To walk in (or by) the Spirit is to allow Him to have His way. It is to remain in communion with Him. It is to make decisions in the light of His holiness. It is to be occupied with Christ, because the Spirit's ministry is to engage the believer with the Lord Jesus. When we thus walk in the Spirit, the flesh, or self-life, is treated as dead. We cannot be occupied at the same time with Christ and with sin.

Scofield says:
The problem of the Christian life is based on the fact that so long as the Christian lives in this world he is, so to speak, two trees—the old tree of the flesh, and the new tree of the divine nature implanted by the new birth; and the problem itself is, how to keep barren the old tree and to make fruitful the new tree. The problem is solved by walking in the Spirit.

This verse and those that follow show that the flesh is still present with the Christian; the idea of the eradication of the sinful nature is thus refuted.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The question I asked you, "is the sinful nature somehow eradicated out of the believer?"

5:17 The Spirit and the flesh are in constant conflict. God could have removed the fleshly nature from believers at the time of their conversion, but He did not choose to do so. Why? He wanted to keep them continually reminded of their own weakness; to keep them continually dependent on Christ, their Priest and Advocate; and to cause them to praise unceasingly the One who saved such worms.

Instead of removing the old nature, God gave us His own Holy Spirit to indwell us. God's Spirit and our flesh are perpetually at war, and will continue to be at war until we are taken home to heaven. The believer's part in the conflict is to yield to the Spirit.

J.

I have provided Scripture, and you provided commentaries. This is the difference between us. I have no interest in reading commentaries. My interest is God’s Word. Talk to me as a real human being and don’t throw other people’s words at me that are not Scripture please. Commentaries are not the Word of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It seems rather to be understood of the struggles that are maintained between grace and corruption in sanctified souls. That there are remainders of indwelling corruption, even where there is a living principle of grace, is past dispute; that this corruption is daily breaking forth in sins of infirmity (such as are consistent with a state of grace) is no less certain.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, 1Jn_1:8, 1Jn_1:10. That true grace strives against these sins and corruptions, does not allow of them, hates them, mourns over them, groans under them as a burden, is likewise certain (Gal_5:17): The flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other, so that you cannot do the things that you would. These are the truths which, I think, are contained in this discourse of the apostle. And his design is further to open the nature of sanctification, that it does not attain to a sinless perfection in this life; and therefore to quicken us to, and encourage us in, our conflicts with remaining corruptions.

Our case is not singular, that which we do sincerely strive against, shall not be laid to our charge, and through grace the victory is sure at last. The struggle here is like that between Jacob and Esau in the womb, between the Canaanites and Israelites in the land, between the house of Saul and the house of David; but great is the truth and will prevail. Understanding it thus, we may observe here,

1. What he complains of - the remainder of indwelling corruptions, which he here speaks of, to show that the law is insufficient to justify even a regenerate man, that the best man in the world hath enough in him to condemn him, if God should deal with him according to the law, which is not the fault of the law, but of our own corrupt nature, which cannot fulfil the law.

The repetition of the same things over and over again in this discourse shows how much Paul's heart was affected with what he wrote, and how deep his sentiments were. Observe the particulars of this complaint. (1.) I am carnal, sold under sin, Rom_7:14. He speaks of the Corinthians as carnal, 1Co_3:1.

Even where there is spiritual life there are remainders of carnal affections, and so far a man may be sold under sin; he does not sell himself to work wickedness, as Ahab did (1Ki_21:25), but he was sold by Adam when he sinned and fell - sold, as a poor slave that does his master's will against his own will - sold under sin, because conceived in iniquity and born in sin. (2.) What I would, that I do not; but what I hate, that do I, Rom_7:15. And to the same purport, Rom_7:19, Rom_7:21, When I would do good, evil is present with me. Such was the strength of corruptions, that he could not attain that perfection in holiness which he desired and breathed after.

Thus, while he was pressing forward towards perfection, yet he acknowledges that he had not already attained, neither was already perfect, Php_3:12.


Fain he would be free from all sin, and perfectly do the will of God, such was his settled judgment; but his corrupt nature drew him another way: it was like a clog, that checked and kept him down when he would have soared upward, like the bias in a bowl, which, when it is thrown straight, yet draws it aside.

(3.) In me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good, Rom_7:18. Here he explains himself concerning the corrupt nature, which he calls flesh; and as far as that goes there is no good to be expected, any more than one would expect good corn growing upon a rock, or on the sand which is by the sea-side. As the new nature, as far as that goes, cannot commit sin (1Jn_3:9), so the flesh, the old nature, as far as that goes, cannot perform a good duty. How should it?

For the flesh serveth the law of sin (Rom_7:25), it is under the conduct and government of that law; and, while it is so, it is not likely to do any good. The corrupt nature is elsewhere called flesh (Gen_6:3, Joh_3:6); and, though there may be good things dwelling in those that have this flesh, yet, as far as the flesh goes, there is no good, the flesh is not a subject capable of any good. (4.) I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, Rom_7:23. The corrupt and sinful inclination is here compared to a law, because it controlled and checked him in his good motions. It is said to be seated in his members, because, Christ having set up his throne in his heart, it was only the rebellious members of the body that were the instruments of sin - in the sensitive appetite; or we may take it more generally for all that corrupt nature which is the seat not only of sensual but of more refined lusts.

This wars against the law of the mind, the new nature; it draws the contrary way, drives on a contrary interest, which corrupt disposition and inclination are as great a burden and grief to the soul as the worst drudgery and captivity could be. It brings me into captivity. To the same purport (Rom_7:25), With the flesh I serve the law of sin; that is, the corrupt nature, the unregenerate part, is continually working towards sin.

(5.) His general complaint we have in Rom_7:24, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? The thing he complains of is a body of death; either the body of flesh, which is a mortal dying body (while we carry this body about with us, we shall be troubled with corruption; when we are dead, we shall be freed from sin, and not before), or the body of sin, the old man, the corrupt nature, which tends to death, that is, to the ruin of the soul.

Or, comparing it to a dead body, the touch of which was by the ceremonial law defiling, if actual transgressions be dead works (Heb_9:14), original corruption is a dead body. It was as troublesome to Paul as if he had had a dead body tied to him, which he must have carried about with him. This made him cry out, O wretched man that I am! A man that had learned in every state to be content yet complains thus of his corrupt nature.


Had I been required to speak of Paul, I should have said, “O blessed man that thou art, an ambassador of Christ, a favourite of heaven, a spiritual father of thousands!” But in his own account he was a wretched man, because of the corruption of nature, because he was not so good as he fain would be, had not yet attained, neither was already perfect. Thus miserably does he complain.......

1 John 1:8 is another popular verse used by those who seek to justify how one must sin again in this life on occasion. Think. Can God really agree with your sin? That makes no sense if you think that way.