The good man that turned bad out of necessity
- Thread starter Riven
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The Christianity of the Apostles IS the Christianity of the CC.
Intill it wandered off...never to be seen again.
MAYBE until now.
Except for some stuff.
Gee.
No clue what that means.
You assume I know everything.
It's a great compliment...
but of no help in conversation.
Oh.
OK.
I like Riven and have for many years now.
Can I help and join in the endeavor to help Riven find his way around Christianity?
Is that even important?
Why?
Why is one form of Christianity more important than another?
Provided, of course, that it IS Christianity.
I’ve spoken about it on this platform since May 2022. Let’s hear what @Riven has to say in response to your questions. We’re both trying to help him.
The world needs the primitive Christianity of Jesus and the apostles. It’s perishing because it doesn’t have it.
The world is the Christian mission field. Take the life saving message to the world. Don’t kill the mission field.
He opposes the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles, saying that it isn’t relevant and useful in the modern era.
That’s entirely up to you. I just want him to know that I haven’t asked you to and prefer that you not.
Oh.
Well, in that case, I'd like to ask my friend why not?
Why not HEAR what Jesus had to say?
Did the Apostles teach incorrectly?
What did Jesus teach that is not relevent for today?
@Riven
Some come to know God through an experience.
Some kind of meeting with Jesus.
It could happen in different ways.
Some come to know God through sheer knowledge, discovery, intellect,
years of questioning.
I believe our friend might have come to God in this manner.
This manner tends to lean toward having to learn everything in an intellectual way...
the person has less trust in the Holy Spirit and everything has to be reasoned out in
a logical manner.
Sometimes they are also still affected by other systems...
maybe world systems...maybe other spiritual systems.
Even they are sure that he needs help. All new Christians do.
@Riven has said that a follower of Jesus must be prepared to go against the teaching of Jesus and the apostles when it is necessary to do so. If I had said that on my rigorous written and oral examinations for ministerial license, I would not have been issued a license.
He doesn’t think I’m dishonest but he does think I’m out of touch with reality. I’ve advised him to discuss it with a pastor whom he trusts. I don’t think he‘s taken my advice. I’m not sure that he even knows a pastor that he trusts and can discuss it with.
Where does that leave him? Here.
From your perspective: Would it be better for him to have this discussion in the “Christians Only” forums? I neither have nor want posting privileges there.
@Riven
“Great numbers of samurai and tens of thousands of lowly peasants and townspeople asked for baptism. Dictator Hideyoshi grew apprehensive at this swift increase of Christians, especially when men of the caliber of Takayama began speaking of Christ as their Shuken, their leige Lord, who received an absolute loyalty given to no other lord. Did this not jeopardize the samurai code? The dictator … had originally favored Christianity. Suddenly, in one of his notorious mood swings, he banned Christianity. All Japanese Christians had to renounce their religion, and all foreign missionaries had to leave. To emphasize the point, he ordered twenty-six to be arrested in Kyoto, the miyako or capital city, and force-marched through the depths of winter to Nagasaki, a thirty-day journey by foot. They were to be executed by crucifixion on their arrival.
The choice of Nagasaki was deliberate. Nagasaki had not been an important town until 1571, when it became the chief port for the European ships that carried the new and flourishing trade between China (via Macao) and Japan. The port was part of the fief of Baron Omura, a Christian daimyo. …
… Dictator Hideyoshi, a man of no real belief, thought that a public spillage of blood would quickly convince Nagasaki Christians to abandon their faith. To this end, he ordered the executions to be slow public spectacles. Nagasaki was told of the hour of arrival of the condemned, and a great throng of of Christians turned out to cheer them and to shout encouragement. The twenty-six were marched to Nishizaka Hill, not far from the present Nagasaki railway station. Twenty-six neatly sawn crosses ran from the brow of the hill down toward the harbor so that everyone could see the show. The victims were fastened to the crosses by iron rings and straw ropes. Two samurai stood beneath each cross with unsheathed bamboo lances, waiting to run their weapons up under the rib cages of the prisoners. This final act was delayed to heighten the terror of condemned and onlooker.”
(Paul Glynn, A Song for Nagasaki, pp. 50, 51)
You don’t know them. It won’t cause you to feel anything. But you’re about to see how the Christians, Catholics, responded to evil.
”Singing broke out from the line of crosses, ‘Praise the Lord, ye children of the Lord’, and the buzz over the hillside ceased. The psalm came to an end, and one of the twenty-six began the Sanctus, the part of the Latin mass, preceding the consecration, which was sung regularly by all Japanese Christian communities. When the last strains floated across the bay, a Franciscan on another cross began the simplest of litanies … The Christians in the crowd took up the prayer, four thousand of them. Hazaburo Terazawa was the official in charge of the execution, and he would give a personal account to the dictator. He was growing apprehensive, as it was becoming a show of Christian strength rather than the bloodcurdling spectacle Dictator Hideyoshi had ordered.”
(Ibid., pp. 51-52)
This is the Christian ethic that you don’t understand and have no sympathy for. This is the apostles’ Christian ethic. This is my Christian ethic.
Do you want to know how evil responded to this show of Christian strength?
“Great numbers of samurai and tens of thousands of lowly peasants and townspeople asked for baptism. Dictator Hideyoshi grew apprehensive at this swift increase of Christians, especially when men of the caliber of Takayama began speaking of Christ as their Shuken, their leige Lord, who received an absolute loyalty given to no other lord. Did this not jeopardize the samurai code? The dictator … had originally favored Christianity. Suddenly, in one of his notorious mood swings, he banned Christianity. All Japanese Christians had to renounce their religion, and all foreign missionaries had to leave. To emphasize the point, he ordered twenty-six to be arrested in Kyoto, the miyako or capital city, and force-marched through the depths of winter to Nagasaki, a thirty-day journey by foot. They were to be executed by crucifixion on their arrival.
The choice of Nagasaki was deliberate. Nagasaki had not been an important town until 1571, when it became the chief port for the European ships that carried the new and flourishing trade between China (via Macao) and Japan. The port was part of the fief of Baron Omura, a Christian daimyo. …
… Dictator Hideyoshi, a man of no real belief, thought that a public spillage of blood would quickly convince Nagasaki Christians to abandon their faith. To this end, he ordered the executions to be slow public spectacles. Nagasaki was told of the hour of arrival of the condemned, and a great throng of of Christians turned out to cheer them and to shout encouragement. The twenty-six were marched to Nishizaka Hill, not far from the present Nagasaki railway station. Twenty-six neatly sawn crosses ran from the brow of the hill down toward the harbor so that everyone could see the show. The victims were fastened to the crosses by iron rings and straw ropes. Two samurai stood beneath each cross with unsheathed bamboo lances, waiting to run their weapons up under the rib cages of the prisoners. This final act was delayed to heighten the terror of condemned and onlooker.”
(Paul Glynn, A Song for Nagasaki, pp. 50, 51)
You don’t know them. It won’t cause you to feel anything. But you’re about to see how the Christians, Catholics, responded to evil.
”Singing broke out from the line of crosses, ‘Praise the Lord, ye children of the Lord’, and the buzz over the hillside ceased. The psalm came to an end, and one of the twenty-six began the Sanctus, the part of the Latin mass, preceding the consecration, which was sung regularly by all Japanese Christian communities. When the last strains floated across the bay, a Franciscan on another cross began the simplest of litanies … The Christians in the crowd took up the prayer, four thousand of them. Hazaburo Terazawa was the official in charge of the execution, and he would give a personal account to the dictator. He was growing apprehensive, as it was becoming a show of Christian strength rather than the bloodcurdling spectacle Dictator Hideyoshi had ordered.”
(Ibid., pp. 51-52)
This is the Christian ethic that you don’t understand and have no sympathy for. This is the apostles’ Christian ethic. This is my Christian ethic.
Do you want to know how evil responded to this show of Christian strength?
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