The good man that turned bad out of necessity

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Matthias

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@Riven take a minute to look at the Tertullian quote with me again.

“The oftener we are mowed down by you …”

Who is the “you” whom Tertullian was addressing?

The Roman Emperor -> Septimus Severus.

What is the significance of that? Romans 13:4.

Septimus Severus - > “minister of God”.

Septimus Severus -> persecutor of Christians / Jesus’ family.

Septimus Severus -> enemy of God / enemy of Messiah / enemy of Christians.
 

Matthias

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@Riven what do you see?

That’s not a drawing depicting the defeat of Christians. That’s a drawing depicting the victory of Christians. God is glorified by the obedience of his sons and daughters.

Killing their enemy wouldn’t have brought glory to God. Overcoming their enemy by not killing their enemy brought glory to God. The mission was a success, not a failure. The church grew. More disciples for Jesus were made. That’s the Great Commission.
 

Matthias

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@Riven another book recommendation for you.

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Remember, Bible first and foremost. However, also reading about Christian martyrs would be enormously beneficial to you.
 

Matthias

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You aren’t following Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.

@Riven this teaching doesn’t come to us from Jesus and the apostles. You won’t find it taught at any church you’ve ever heard of. It comes to us from the evil one.

Do you see how the false teaching is incompatible with and harmful to carrying out the Great Commission?

It’s an antiMessiah teaching.
 

Matthias

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Proposition: Killing our enemies guts the heart of the gospel.

AI Overview -

“That statement aligns directly with the core ethical teachings of Jesus Christ, who explicitly commanded his followers to love and pray for their enemies rather than destroy them. The central message of the New Testament centers on grace, reconciliation, and God offering mercy to humanity while they were still considered spiritual enemies. …”

That response may not be persuasive for others but It resonates with my spirit. It’s an accurate expression of my primitive Christian faith and ethic.

Goodnight.
 
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Matthias

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He didn’t like it but he didn’t intervene to stop it. Don’t rush past it.

It’s not a unique incident. It’s a pattern.

Now let’s go back to Jesus not intervening to protect his family.

Jesus intervenes to accomplish the mission of his family but doesn’t always intervene to protect all members of his family from harm.

@Riven I was reading John 11 before going to bed last night. Another example of the pattern. It’s the story of Lazarus, and the enemy of the family member this time is death.

”Now a man was ill, Lazarus from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. Mary was the one who had anointed the Lord with perfumed oil and dried his feet with her hair; it was her brother Lazarus who was ill. So the sisters sent word to him, saying, ‘Master, the one you love is ill.’ When Jesus heard this he said, ‘This illness will not end in death, but is for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.’ Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.”

(John 11:1-5, NABRE)

That’s the set up. Jesus knows that the illness is serious. He knows Lazarus is going to die. Lazarus is defenseless against the enemy, death.

Jesus could intervene immediately to prevent Lazarus from dying but he doesn’t. He’s going to intentionally allow Lazarus to die. The enemy, death, could have been stopped by Jesus. Jesus could have killed the enemy and saved the life.

The story continues,

“So when he heard that he was ill, he remained for two days in that place where he was.”

Does that sound cold to you? Jesus waited, for two days; giving the enemy time to kill Lazarus. There must be no doubt about it in anyone’s mind. The enemy mustn’t be stopped. And so he waits. The enemy must be allowed to kill a man whom Jesus loves (and will give his own life for.)

The enemy kills Lazarus.

”Then after this he said to his disciples, ‘Let us go back to Judea.’”

That’s where Lazarus, who has died, is. Jesus knows Lazarus is dead. The disciples don’t.

”The disciples said to him, ‘Rabbi, the Jews were just trying to stone you, and you want to go back there?’ Jesus answered, ‘Are there not twelve hours in a day? If one walks during the day, he does not stumble. But if one walks at night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.’ He said this and then told them, ‘Our friend Lazarus is asleep, but I am going to awaken him.’

”Sleep” is a metaphor for death. Lazarus is dead. Lifeless. Jesus is going to “awaken him” from lifelessness. Jesus is going to resurrect him from the grave, which is the pathway to restoration of life. Jesus is the light.

”So the disciples said to him, ‘Master, if he is asleep, he will be saved.’ But Jesus was talking about his death, while they thought he meant ordinary sleep. So then Jesus said to them clearly, ‘Lazarus has died.’ And I am glad for you that I was not there, that you may believe. Let us go to him.’ “

It’s a dangerous trip. The unbelieving Jews want to kill Jesus. Why risk being killed to go to a man who was already dead? So that the disciples will believe. Believe what? Believe why?

”So Thomas, called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ‘Let us also go to die with him.’”

That’s loyalty, but doesn’t it sound depressing? Lazarus is dead. They’re going to kill Jesus. They’re going to kill us. We’re all going to the grave. We’re all going to die. We’re all going to sleep the lifeless sleep of death. Resignation.

”When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, only about two miles away.“

Jesus is going to die nearby. He isn’t going to be killed in Bethany. He knows that. He knows that the disciples aren’t going to die in Bethany. They’re there to believe, not to be killed by their enemy. They are there to witness an event that is preparing them for their witness to their enemies for Jesus. It is training for carrying out the Great Commission.

You can read the rest of the story. This post is already too long.

Jesus deals with their unbelief by wounding the enemy, death. It is death that in the end loses its power, its life. Death is a defeated enemy, just as Satan is.

Jesus didn’t intervene to prevent the death of Lazarus. The intervention of Jesus after the enemy killed his family member had a purpose -> to glorify God and his Son, the Messiah.

If my enemy kills me, my witness for God and his Son stands.

If I kill my enemy, my witness for God and his Son falls.
 

Matthias

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@Riven God and his Son consider me, a follower of Jesus, to be a good man. My enemies consider me to be a bad man.

I’m imitating Jesus and my enemies seek to harm me, just as they sought to harm him. His enemies said Jesus is a bad man. His enemies say his followers are bad men. That’s part of the cost of putting down the sword, taking up the cross, and following Jesus.

I point to Jesus. I point to Jesus in his followers.

Think about this: Is Jesus the good man that turned bad (in the eyes of his enemies) out of necessity?
 

Matthias

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“What makes the temptation of power so seemingly irresistible? Maybe it is that power offers an easy substitute for the hard task of love.” - Henri Nouwen

 

Riven

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@Matthias

Consider what you're saying about delegating the defense of yourself and your family to unbelievers in government.

What you're saying is that it is effectively impossible for everyone to be saved because Christians will always need unbelievers to act as their protectors.
 

Matthias

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@Matthias

Consider what you're saying about delegating the defense of yourself and your family to unbelievers in government.

That’s the context of Paul’s teaching.

I’m a 1st century Christian living in the 21st century.

What you're saying is that it is effectively impossible for everyone to be saved …

Not everyone will be saved.

… because Christians will always need unbelievers to act as their protectors.

Don’t put your trust in men. Christians rely on God and Jesus to protect us.
 

RLT63

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@Riven I was reading John 11 before going to bed last night. Another example of the pattern. It’s the story of Lazarus, and the enemy of the family member this time is death.

”Now a man was ill, Lazarus from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. Mary was the one who had anointed the Lord with perfumed oil and dried his feet with her hair; it was her brother Lazarus who was ill. So the sisters sent word to him, saying, ‘Master, the one you love is ill.’ When Jesus heard this he said, ‘This illness will not end in death, but is for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.’ Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.”

(John 11:1-5, NABRE)

That’s the set up. Jesus knows that the illness is serious. He knows Lazarus is going to die. Lazarus is defenseless against the enemy, death.

Jesus could intervene immediately to prevent Lazarus from dying but he doesn’t. He’s going to intentionally allow Lazarus to die. The enemy, death, could have been stopped by Jesus. Jesus could have killed the enemy and saved the life.

The story continues,

“So when he heard that he was ill, he remained for two days in that place where he was.”

Does that sound cold to you? Jesus waited, for two days; giving the enemy time to kill Lazarus. There must be no doubt about it in anyone’s mind. The enemy mustn’t be stopped. And so he waits. The enemy must be allowed to kill a man whom Jesus loves (and will give his own life for.)

The enemy kills Lazarus.

”Then after this he said to his disciples, ‘Let us go back to Judea.’”

That’s where Lazarus, who has died, is. Jesus knows Lazarus is dead. The disciples don’t.

”The disciples said to him, ‘Rabbi, the Jews were just trying to stone you, and you want to go back there?’ Jesus answered, ‘Are there not twelve hours in a day? If one walks during the day, he does not stumble. But if one walks at night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.’ He said this and then told them, ‘Our friend Lazarus is asleep, but I am going to awaken him.’

”Sleep” is a metaphor for death. Lazarus is dead. Lifeless. Jesus is going to “awaken him” from lifelessness. Jesus is going to resurrect him from the grave, which is the pathway to restoration of life. Jesus is the light.

”So the disciples said to him, ‘Master, if he is asleep, he will be saved.’ But Jesus was talking about his death, while they thought he meant ordinary sleep. So then Jesus said to them clearly, ‘Lazarus has died.’ And I am glad for you that I was not there, that you may believe. Let us go to him.’ “

It’s a dangerous trip. The unbelieving Jews want to kill Jesus. Why risk being killed to go to a man who was already dead? So that the disciples will believe. Believe what? Believe why?

”So Thomas, called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ‘Let us also go to die with him.’”

That’s loyalty, but doesn’t it sound depressing? Lazarus is dead. They’re going to kill Jesus. They’re going to kill us. We’re all going to the grave. We’re all going to die. We’re all going to sleep the lifeless sleep of death. Resignation.

”When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, only about two miles away.“

Jesus is going to die nearby. He isn’t going to be killed in Bethany. He knows that. He knows that the disciples aren’t going to die in Bethany. They’re there to believe, not to be killed by their enemy. They are there to witness an event that is preparing them for their witness to their enemies for Jesus. It is training for carrying out the Great Commission.

You can read the rest of the story. This post is already too long.

Jesus deals with their unbelief by wounding the enemy, death. It is death that in the end loses its power, its life. Death is a defeated enemy, just as Satan is.

Jesus didn’t intervene to prevent the death of Lazarus. The intervention of Jesus after the enemy killed his family member had a purpose -> to glorify God and his Son, the Messiah.

If my enemy kills me, my witness for God and his Son stands.

If I kill my enemy, my witness for God and his Son falls.
John 11:35 (KJV)
Jesus wept.
Jesus wept before he called Lazarus from the grave.
When I was ordained they asked for my favorite scripture to put in the program and I said John 11:35
The pastor asked me if it was a joke.
No, if Jesus can cry he knows how I have felt at times
 
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