The good man that turned bad out of necessity

[Matthias]

Jesus and the apostles didn’t treat their enemies like that @Riven. Neither did the other followers of Jesus. That’s not what loving your enemy looks like. You understand that, don’t you?

Do you know who did? Read Romans 13:1-4 and you will. That’s not the role of believers. That’s the role of unbelievers. That’s Nero’s job.

Do you have a problem with Paul calling Nero a minister / servant of God? I don’t.

 

[RLT63]

View attachment 88089

Jesus and the apostles didn’t treat their enemies like that @Riven. Neither did the other followers of Jesus. That’s not what loving your enemy looks like. You understand that, don’t you?

Do you know who did? Read Romans 13:1-4 and you will. That’s not the role of believers. That’s the role of unbelievers. That’s Nero’s job.

Do you have a problem with Paul calling Nero a minister / servant of God? I don’t.

But can’t those people in positions of authority like in Romans 13 be Christians? Like Cornelious

 

[Riven]

You don’t believe that God could prevent that from happening if Christians had obeyed the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. I do.

God had the opportunity to stop it from happening and did nothing as entire families were starving and being slaughtered like cattle in the camps. It was Christian men that stopped this from going any further.

 

[Matthias]

But can’t those people in positions of authority like in Romans 13 be Christians?

Paul is writing about the pagan Roman government.

Can Christians be pagans? Can pagans carry out the Great Commission?

No. It is the role of the unbelieving to maintain order in the world.

Like Cornelious

What happened to Cornelius after he converted? Did he continue to serve the pagan emperor with his sword? Did he put down the sword, obeying the teaching of Paul (“We do not use the weapons of the world”.) What would have happened to him if he had obeyed the teaching of Paul?

 

[marks]

Paul is writing about the pagan Roman government.

Let's be smart about this.

There is no such limitation. If you think otherwise, show that. If not, accept it.

Romans 13:1-8 KJV
1) Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5) Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6) For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

 

[RLT63]

Paul is writing about the pagan Roman government.

Can Christians be pagans? Can pagans carry out the Great Commission?

No. It is the role of the unbelieving to maintain order in the world.



What happened to Cornelius after he converted? Did he continue to serve the pagan emperor with his sword? Did he put down the sword, obeying the teaching of Paul (“We do not use the weapons of the world”.) What would have happened to him if he had obeyed the teaching of Paul?

What did happen to Cornelius? Did he receive instructions to leave his profession?

 

[Matthias]

God had the opportunity to stop it from happening and did nothing …

That’s not true. God did do something.

... as entire families were starving and being slaughtered like cattle in the camps.

Does that sound similar to what happened when the Assyrians and the Babylonians laid seige on Jerusalem?

It was Christian men that stopped this from going any further.

God didn’t stop it but Christian men did? Christian men did better than God?

 

[Matthias]

Let's be smart about this.

There is no such limitation. If you think otherwise, show that. If not, accept it.

Romans 13:1-8 KJV
1) Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5) Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6) For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

See the writings of the Ante Nicene Church Fathers.

 

[Matthias]

What did happen to Cornelius?

Scripture doesn’t tell us what happened to him. Neither does any other source.

We do have information from Roman sources and early Christian writings concerning what happened to men in his position and what instruction the church gave them. I suspect that something similar happened with Cornelius.

Did he receive instructions to leave his profession?

Did he not? Neither one of us knows that answer.

Did Cornelius continue to use the sword after his conversion, contradicting the teaching of Paul? I don’t think so.

Did Cornelius choose to serve the pagan emperor with his sword and Paul winked at it? I don’t think so.

 

[marks]

See the writings of the Ante Nicene Church Fathers.

You should stick with the Bible, and not add to it, even if someone else says to. What you claim it says, it does not.

 

[Matthias]

@Riven do you recognize the man in the photograph?



Romans 13:1-4. He’s a “Nero,” a “servant / minister of God”. Joseph Stalin. (Better or worse than Nero?) God used this wicked man to stop what was happening in the Nazi concentration camps.

Joseph Stalin wasn’t sent to carry out the Great Commission. (That’s the role of the followers of Jesus; not the role of the government.) Mr. Stalin was sent to carry out God’s vengeance on Mr. Hitler. (That’s not the role of the followers of Jesus; that’s the role of government.)

 

[Matthias]

You should stick with the Bible, and not add to it, even if someone else says to.

Everyone should stick with the Bible. Are you saying that the Ante Nicene Christians didn’t?

 

[marks]

Everyone should stick with the Bible. Are you saying that the Ante Nicene Christians didn’t?

You should yourself know perfectly well that they didn't all agree with each other, and in some cases were all over the map.

Just claiming "The ante nicene's will back me up" is disengenous. Do you know another name for disengenous?

And just the same . . . I telling you, stick to the Bible and don't add to it, even if others do, even if others say you should.

 

[Matthias]

You should yourself know perfectly well that they didn't all agree with each other, and in some cases were all over the map.

I do.

Just claiming "The ante nicene's will back me up" is disengenous.

No. The Ante Nicenes do back me up on this issue. What they wrote on this issue, aligns with the teaching of Jesus and the apostles concerning how the followers of Jesus are to treat their enemies.

Do you know another name for disengenous?

Yes.

And just the same . . . I telling you, stick to the Bible and don't add to it, even if others do, even if others say you should.

See above.

 

[RLT63]

I never gave this much thought when I was in Law Enforcement. I was a youth minister and filled in for preachers all the time and never thought there was a conflict. I got involved with a case that exposed corruption in the department and I didn’t have time to do both so I chose to resign from my ministry position.
Now looking back I think I made the wrong choice

 

[Matthias]

@Riven what is the context of Romans 13:1-4? Is Paul writing about a civil government run by the followers of Jesus or is Paul writing about a civil government run by unbelievers?

Can a civil government carry out its responsibility to maintain order and provide for the defense of its citizens without using the weapons of the world?

 

[Riven]

God didn’t stop it but Christian men did? Christian men did better than God?

I think so. Stopping a genocide is better than allowing it to continue.

@Riven do you recognize the man in the photograph?

View attachment 88093

Romans 13:1-4. He’s a “Nero,” a “servant / minister of God”. Joseph Stalin. (Better or worse than Nero?) God used this wicked man to stop what was happening in the Nazi concentration camps.

Joseph Stalin wasn’t sent to carry out the Great Commission. (That’s the role of the followers of Jesus; not the role of the government.) Mr. Stalin was sent to carry out God’s vengeance on Mr. Hitler. (That’s not the role of the followers of Jesus; that’s the role of government.)

Joseph Stalin as God's hand of vengeance? Well that's one way to look at it.

 

[Matthias]

I never gave this much thought when I was in Law Enforcement. I was a youth minister and filled in for preachers all the time and never thought there was a conflict.

@marks won’t want to hear this but if I were on the side of ”Christians can serve in the military and in law enforcement” camp, I would appeal to the writings of the Nicene Church Fathers.

marks does have one good point: Stick to the Bible and don’t add to it.

A shift occurred in the thinking and teaching of the church in the 4th century. The beginning of Just War theory is located there. It comes to us from the church, not from Jesus and the apostles; not from the New Testament.

I got involved with a case that exposed corruption in the department and I didn’t have time to do both so I chose to resign from my ministry position.
Now looking back I think I made the wrong choice

Both of my parents worked for the government. Both advised me not to go to work for the government when I graduated with a degree in Civil Engineering. I took their advice. For two years. Then I went on to have a thirty-year career in government (in environmental regulatory programs which didn’t involve using a weapon of the world.) Corruption was rampant. I refused to go along with it and paid a high price for it. Looking back on it, I think I made the wrong choice.

That’s all bridge under the water now.

 

[RLT63]

@marks won’t want to hear this but if I were on the side of ”Christians can serve in the military and in law enforcement” camp, I would appeal to the writings of the Nicene Church Fathers.

marks does have one good point: Stick to the Bible and don’t add to it.

A shift occurred in the thinking and teaching of the church in the 4th century. The beginning of Just War theory is located there. It comes to us from the church, not from Jesus and the apostles; not from the New Testament.



Both of my parents worked for the government. Both advised me not to go to work for the government when I graduated with a degree in Civil Engineering. I took their advice. For two years. Then I went on to have a thirty-year career in government (in environmental regulatory programs which didn’t involve using a weapon of the world.) Corruption was rampant. I refused to go along with it and paid a high price for it. Looking back on it, I think I made the wrong choice.

That’s all bridge under the water now.

In my case there were serious repercussions for going after corrupt officers. It was the end of my career

 

[Matthias]

I think so.

The thought that Christian men have ever done better than God at anything, or in any circumstance, is unthinkable to me; even shocking. I take into account that you’re still a new Christian but I can’t in good conscience not push back against it. I don’t know why the others participating in the conversation haven’t.

Stopping a genocide is better than allowing it to continue.

God did eventually put a stop to it. The question is why did he allow it to go on for as long as he did. The answer is bound up in his character.

Joseph Stalin as God's hand of vengeance? Well that's one way to look at it.

There are many examples in scripture of God using men like him to punish the wicked.