The good man that turned bad out of necessity

[Matthias]

I don't believe in the concept of sin, and certainly not original sin.
I now believe in evolution by natural selection as it makes far more sense to me than the Genesis account.
To be clear here I'm not talking about abiogenesis, I'm merely talking about the origins of our species.
So in short, if I can't take the Bible literally and don't believe in original sin, then how can I possibly follow Jesus who is to save me from that sin?

That stems from either not believing that there is a God, or believing that there is a God (or even gods) who has abandoned us to our own devices. We’ll obviously have to come back to this.

You presently recognize no authority other than man. Let’s start there.

Man has rules. If we break the rules we have “sinned” against the authority that established the rules. We reap the benefits of abiding by the rules and we pay the penalty when we don’t abide by them.

If we can clear this low hurdle, we can take on the higher hurdle -> which is the existence of God, and his level of involvement with man.

I’ve never been an atheist or agnostic. This is where I think my friend @Riven could help us. He was agnostic when he became a member of this Board two years ago. He was eventually able to clear the higher hurdle. He’s a good example for you, but he’s more than just that.

 

[Mancunian]

That stems from either not believing that there is a God, or believing that there is a God (or even gods) who has abandoned us to our own devices. We’ll obviously have to come back to this.

You presently recognize no authority other than man. Let’s start there.

Man has rules. If we break the rules we have “sinned” against the authority that established the rules. We reap the benefits of abiding by the rules and we pay the penalty when we don’t abide by them.

If we can clear this low hurdle, we can take on the higher hurdle -> which is the existence of God, and his level of involvement with man.

This is where I think my friend @Riven could help us. He was agnostic when he became a member of this Board two years ago. He was eventually able to clear the higher hurdle. He’s a good example for you, but he’s more than just that.

I think that I've said it before, maybe in this thread I think the planet is in a bad place due entirely to mankind.
I don't see any divine intervention, so in a way we are being left to our own devices.

 

[Mancunian]

If divine intervention was a recognisable thing, surely we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[Matthias]

I think that I've said it before, maybe in this thread I think the planet is in a bad place due entirely to mankind.

Mankind has done a lousy job managing the world. But I think that’s also part of the reason that the end hasn’t come yet. Not all men think we‘ve botched it. God is going to allow man to get a bellyful of his mismanagement so that man will not say that we were on our way to making the earth a paradise.

I don't see any divine intervention, so in a way we are being left to our own devices.

I believe you when you say that you don’t see evidence of any divine intervention. I would direct your attention to Jesus. He raised people from death to life. He himself was raised from death to life. That’s not natural. That’s not evolution. That’s intervention from someone.

 

[Matthias]

If divine intervention was a recognisable thing, surely we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You haven’t recognized it yet, but I have. That’s why we’re having this conversation. Jesus wants you to recognize it. We can see him in his followers. I do. He wants you to.

Have you been hurt by people who said they were his followers?

 

[RLT63]

You haven’t recognized it yet, but I have. That’s why we’re having this conversation. Jesus wants you to recognize it. We can see him in his followers. I do. He wants you to.

Have you been hurt by people who said they were his followers?

I have been hurt by people who claimed they were his followers

 

[Mancunian]

Mankind has done a lousy job managing the world. But I think that’s also part of the reason that the end hasn’t come yet. Not all men think we‘ve botched it. God is going to allow man to get a bellyful of his mismanagement so that man will not say that we were on our way to making the earth a paradise.


I believe you when you say that you don’t see evidence of any divine intervention. I would direct your attention to Jesus. He raised people from death to life. He himself was raised from death to life. That’s not natural. That’s not evolution. That’s intervention from someone.

I would agree if those events were proven fact... The problem I have is that it's not, all we have is scripture to support the claims. We know that people are sometimes liars, we know that people sometimes exaggerate, we know that people are sometimes mistaken.

Add onto this the length of time from the death of Jesus to the writings of the gospels and we have a can of worms.

I would love to hear it straight from the horse's mouth so to speak but that's not going to happen.

 

[Matthias]

I have been hurt by people who claimed they were his followers

I’m sorry that you have. I have been too.

Even worse in my case, I’ve hurt followers of Jesus.

We are are examples of persons who have been hurt by followers of Jesus - be they genuine or false - and have cleared it from the path; not allowing it to keep us from being followers of Jesus.

 

[Mancunian]

You haven’t recognized it yet, but I have. That’s why we’re having this conversation. Jesus wants you to recognize it. We can see him in his followers. I do. He wants you to.

Have you been hurt by people who said they were his followers?

It's hurtful when people not just believers criticize my children, it's hurtful when I'm viewed as someone who just wants to sin, nobody likes the feeling of being looked down on by others but it's especially hurtful when it's over a simple lack of belief.

 

[Matthias]

I would agree if those events were proven fact... The problem I have is that it's not, all we have is scripture to support the claims.

We have sources outside of scripture which acknowledge the claim.

We know that people are sometimes liars, we know that people sometimes exaggerate, we know that people are sometimes mistaken.

I agree that we do. However, it hasn’t been shown that the apostles were liars, exaggerated, or were mistaken.

Add onto this the length of time from the death of Jesus to the writings of the gospels and we have a can of worms.

Between the time of his death and the writings of the gospels - a couple of decades - we have oral transmission.

I would love to hear it straight from the horse's mouth so to speak but that's not going to happen.

It has already happened. Jesus’ words, preserved for is in scripture, are the spirit, the mind, the thoughts, the verbal expression of Jesus. All we have to do is open the scriptures and allow him to speak with us.

 

[Matthias]

It's hurtful when people not just believers criticize my children, it's hurtful when I'm viewed as someone who just wants to sin, nobody likes the feeling of being looked down on by others but it's especially hurtful when it's over a simple lack of belief.

I’m truly sorry that has happened to you. That’s the spirit of the world - or as @Riven would say, the way of the world. Jesus is calling people to come out of the spirit / way of the world.

Those of us who have responded to his call remain in the world, but we are not of the world. We live as he lived in the world while we wait for him to return.

 

[GodsGrace]

If your conscience isn’t seared it will. I quote extensively from the book in the “Reason for The Crusades explained” thread.



I reject both.

History forces you to make a choice.

I agree that it would be nice if the world were perfect.

 

[Mancunian]

For accuracy the gospels were written between 30- 70 years after Jesus' death.

 

[Matthias]

History forces you to make a choice.

I chose the way of Jesus and the apostles; the role of believers.

I sided with them and teach others to do likewise.

The way of the Muslims and the Crusaders isn’t their / my way.

You chose the way of the Muslims and the Crusaders; the role of the state.

You sided with the Crusaders.

 

[Debp]

I don’t know how to win over the Muslims

Do you know any Muslims? I find that treating them like the Lord taught us to treat others is best. And as the Lord provides opportunities, you can plant or water seeds.

Being the father of one homosexual child and one transgender child, I wonder if Jesus would treat my children with love and welcome them into the fold?
I've met a lot of Christians and get somewhat mixed messages.
If following Jesus means turning my back on my children it definitely isn't an option for me.

Jesus never said to turn your back on your children. Perhaps your Christian love for them would help them to eventually come to Jesus as their Savior?

Jesus loves sinners but of course doesn't love our sins. But when we come to Jesus, we do get a new heart and will change. Some people grow spiritually more slowly. Some have dramatic changes in their lives.

If divine intervention was a recognisable thing, surely we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I think divine intervention has brought you to a Christian forum.