I think if you step back and look at what you just said that you will realize that it really doesn't make a lot of sense to assert that God's ultimate intent isn't to exalt man to his glory.
The Gospel was changed by God:
- Thread starter RichardBurger
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
I think if you step back and look at what you just said that you will realize that it really doesn't make a lot of sense to assert that God's ultimate intent isn't to exalt man to his glory.
There you go pushing a falsehood again, which could never... serve as a middle greeting place between us through The Lord Christ Jesus.
What falsehood do I speak of? Your falsehood that I deny what Apostle Paul said about The Gospel going to the Gentiles. No where have I ever... denied Paul's Commission in The Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles. Nor have I denied Peter's directing by God in doing the SAME per Acts 10. Nor have I denied that Jesus said Paul was "a chosen vessel" by Him to preach The Gospel ALSO... to kings, AND to the children of Israel (Acts 9:15).
What I EMPHATICALLY DENY is... the FALSE doctrine you preach that Paul preached a 'different' Gospel than the One Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the SAME Gospel that also was preached to Israel.
I also EMPHATICALLY deny... ANY doctrine that says Christ's Church is separated into TWO Churches, one for Israel, and another for Gentiles. That doctrine is un-Biblicall, and blasphemy of The One True Gospel of Jesus Christ which God gave from the beginning.
You have said the truth. You do not believe Paul when he said his gospel was hidden in God and revealed to him; that he, Paul, was the first to be saved under grace as a pattern for those who would come after him according to the scriptures.
You just can't seem to get your head around the fact that there are NOT two gospels for this age. The one for the Jews (the convenant promises to the Jews only) has been set aside until the time of the Gentile is ended. There is only ONE gospel for this age of grace and it isn't the gospel that Jesus and the 12 preached to the Jews. Their gospel was that Jesus was there to setup the promised kingdom for the Jews.
There is no separation between Jews and Gentiles today under grace. All, both Jew and Gentile, have to place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the shed blood on the cross reconciling them to God. -- Under the kingdom gospel the Law of Moses will be in effect. Grace will be recinded when those that have been saved under grace are called out of this world (caught up).
The gospel that was hidden in God is much more than the fact that the Gentiles are accepted. It is how we are justified before God. Not of works but of faith plus nothing.
Glorying in your new man statis is prideful. You should be giving all the glory to Jesus who died on a cross for you to make you a new man """IN CHRIST""" not the flesh. The flesh counts for nothing, according to the scriptures
No...you misunderstand me. Salvation comes through faith in Christ alone. The 'must' I speak of is not a rule or regulation for that salvation, it is the need that comes from salvation. Anyone who does not receive a longing in their hearts for the absence of sin in their lives...a desire to live as Christ...has not truly been regenerated.
:blink: Please tell me you are kidding? What about the disciples? How about those who 'believed' at Penecost? What about those the disciples preached to in the early days at the temples...those they healed? They were all baptised with the Spirit...became Christians in the grace of God.
It is almost funny to think that Peter wasn't saved under grace....that man messed up so many times, it was ONLY grace that would have saved him!
Then, of course, we have people in the OT who were also saved by grace. Abraham? Remember him? The bible clearly tells us that despite his many failings, he trusted and obeyed God and it was 'accounted to him as righteousness'...that's God's grace. Again and again in scripture, both OT and NT, there is nothing but God's grace. It a repeating story of mankind's messing up and God extending his love and grace. His grace is not a new thing to the NT, to Paul and onwards. For you to suggest such a thing is for you to completely ignore or misread the entirety of the bible. Regardless whether God has future plans for Israel or not, you are missing His entire redemptive plan...from the Garden to the Return. It's all Jesus, it's always been about Jesus and only Jesus....and Him preached to the entire world for the salvation of nations.
Don't you get it yet Rach? Per the false doctrine Richard is on, anyone of Israel is doomed... until Christ's second coming!
That's when those on Richard's blasphemous doctrine of men believes Christ's New Covenant will become in 'effect' for Israel, no exceptions!!!
No! I am not kidding. Jesus and the 11 never recinded the Law of Moses and yet Paul said that under grace we are not under the Law of Moses. Now you try and combine the Law of Moses with the gospel of grace and see what you get. -- A blenderized verson of salvation by works and grace.
You have been told, many times, that the gospel of the kingdom (which included the Law of Moses) was for the Jews, not the Gentiles. Under it Jesus was the Messiah and king of the Jews and He was on the earth to bring the Jews the kingdom which was promised to them. BUT THE JEWS REJECTED HIM. Therefore God instituted a plan of salvation (grace) the was hidden in Himself and not revealed until it was given to Paul. But the religious wil never accept that the Gospel Paul preached was new.
You might want to get to know the following scripture.
1 Corinthians 2:6-8
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
NKJV
It make sense to me that if Satan had known the hidden plan of God he would never have let Jesus shed His blood on a cross. If what I said here is not the truth then you tell me what this scripture above means.
Romans 11:25
5 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
NKJV
Romans 16:25
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
NKJV
Here again we find Paul saying the gospel that was given to him was kept secret by God and yet man refuses to see it.
You have claimed, many times, that what I teach is false and yet you never reply to any of the scriptures I use to support what I say. All you do is shot the messenger. Keep it up.
You say my message is the doctrine of men. Isn't your message the same? Your doctrines are based in the RCC teachings that you accept. Mine are based on the scriptures as they read. You raed the word hidden and it goes through one ear and out the other. Why! Because you do not want to hear it, much less believe it.
grace is the God given strength to fulfill the commandments. Jesus overcame...and now He empowers us to overcome THROUGH Him and His power. Have you never read...to him that overcomes? We are thus empowered to walk in holiness and conquer the enemy in HIS name. So we are empowerted to WORK the things of God...not according to the law and the flesh but according to the Spirit. The gospel is about POWER and this power is given to us through the Holy Spirit. If we do not receive this grace from heaven to do the works of heaven then we yet remain carnal and unchanged. This is our condition BEFORE we receive Christ..not after.
Apostle Paul taught the "kingdom" as part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ he preached to Gentiles...
Acts 28:28-31
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
(KJV)
The idea of God's Kingdom under Christ Jesus is... the gospel of the kingdom.
Jesus proclaimed that to the Jews first, of which many of them rejected and had Him crucified. And then He sent that same gospel to the Gentiles through those like Paul (Acts 9:15).
Thus: - gospel of the kingdom, the gospel of Jesus Christ, Paul's gospel = The same Gospel of Jesus Christ.
It is utter ignorance to try and separate the 'kingdom' idea apart from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Our Lord Jesus didn't do that, nor did any... of His Apostles, including Apostle Paul.
That Scripture has the same meaning as the Acts one I posted above. Many of the Jews rejected the 'gospel of the kingdom', i.e., The Gospel of Jesus Christ, so... it was then sent to the Gentiles, and they would hear and believe it. Same Gospel the unbelieving Jews rejected.
The Gospel Paul preached is the same Gospel that was preached to Abraham...
Gal 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, "In thee shall all nations be blessed."
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
(KJV)
But of course, those like Richard won't address those Scriptures I post, which directly go against his false preaching of TWO different gospels.
The Romans 11 Scripture has a lot more in it than just that verse Richard pulls out of it to abuse for his own cause. If you pay particular attention to what Scripture verses he picks to describe Israel's relation to The Gospel, you'll notice it's most always about the part of 'unbelieving' Israel, and not about the 'believing' part of Israel that accepted the same Gospel as the Gentiles have. At the start of the Romans 11 chapter, Apostle Paul describes the part of 'believing' Israel first, those who were not blinded to Christ's Gospel. That's why Richard's doctrine is so easy... to pick apart (for those who stay in God's Word), because there's so much Scripture evidence that he never mentions that shows his doctrine is falsehood based.
The Gospel was hidden to the Gentiles before Jesus died on the cross. THAT's... what Paul was talking about with the 'mystery'. No one understood that Salvation would also go to the Gentiles before Christ Jesus came; that's what was kept a secret from the foundation of the world. The Gospel Itself was NOT... a mystery to Israel.
Paul affirmed that The Gospel was even preached to Abraham! At the end of John 8, our Lord Jesus even showed that Abraham saw His day, and was glad. That Christ would come was preached early on to Israel, even through Moses (Deuternomy 18:15). Isaiah was given to describe Christ's sufferings (Isaiah 53), even as David was given to write also about Christ's crucifixion (Ps.22). A specific Promise from The Father to send His Son is given in Isaiah 7, along with His Name "Immanuel" (repeated in Matt.1:23 to mean 'with us is God').
Thus The Gospel of Jesus Christ, that He would come to die for sin was NEVER... a mystery in Old Testament times. Even Enoch, the 7th from Adam, prophesied of Christ's second coming with ten thousands of his saints (Jude 1:4). If Enoch knew about our Lord Jesus Christ back then, then it suggest others also back then also knew, for God showed it to them.
I will CONTINUE to expose the falsehoods you're pushing here as long as I am able. And it's not all that hard to do either!
Even your claim that I never reply to Scripture verses you post is a huge LIE. It's YOU that rarely if EVER reply to Scripture I've posted that proves your 2 gospel idea is false.
You must be feeling the 'heat' by having to come up with such irrlevant statements as that.
Really!!! So you can tell others that they must do what you can not do and that is irrelevant. I think it shows you as arragant and hypocritical.
Who accuses others of sin? You don't know what I do. Don't judge others from yourself. Do you believe the gospel 0r not?
Actually, I've never tried to blend the law of Moses with grace. That was never for me, as a gentile and now as a redeemed person. The very huge point you seem to be missing is this: Jesus indeed did live under the Law of Moses...for a very specific reason. For Him to be the perfect sacrifice...the one able to make propitiation for our sins, He had to keep the Law of Moses perfectly. The law was a diagnostic tool to show humanity just how far from holy they were. It showed how holy and just and good God was, and illustrated the need for payment for sins. Jesus, in keeping the law perfectly provided that righteousness that we needed but could not get. Now, for those who believe in Christ, we have been accredited with Jesus' life...when God looks at us He sees a life lived perfectly under those very laws. We need not struggle ourselves in trying to fulfil something we could never keep...Jesus did it for us. Now, since that was the reason Jesus came, it makes sense, both rationally and biblically for Him to live that law. But your very big mistake is think that just because Jesus lived the law and Paul preached against it, that they proclaimed a different gospel. Jesus lived a life under the law so that Paul could preach against it. It was all for the one and same purpose....freedom from something no human could live.
You seem to see nothing beyond the fact that Paul preached against the law...but you are missing the huge and staggering act that Jesus came for. It was not just to 'die for our sins'...it was to free us from the law...and to do that, He first had to fulfil it and live it perfectly. Why do you think Paul continually pulls things from the OT? It's because he understood that Jesus was always the focus of the OT, that it was always the plan of God for Jesus to fulfil and then do away with the law. The bible is very clear...the law was never something man could have followed perfectly...that is why it always pointed to the coming of Christ, the one who could follow it perfectly, then release us from the need of it. Your understanding the in time the Jews will have that 'covenant of Law' reinstated to them is not biblical...and all it would be doing is putting them in a place where they needed Jesus to come and die for them. Well, He did come, and He did die and we're told that His sacrifice was 'once for all'.
Your quoted bible verses have really made me realized lot of things. I'll be sharing this to my friends too. Thanks for this post.
The bible says all men have sinned...not all men WILL sin. The carnal man WILL sin...but the spiritual man overcomes sin through faith in Christ. Basic gospel 101.
...and cut a new covenant through a new life in Christ that accomplishes the law.
The bible says all men have sinned...not all men WILL sin. The carnal man WILL sin...but the spiritual man overcomes sin through faith in Christ. Basic gospel 101.
Through faith or through trying not to sin?
It is through faith in what Jesus did on the cross. Not faith in efforts to not sin.
A person has overcome sin when they place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross, His shed blood. They are placed "in Christ" by the Holy Spirit when they place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross, His shed blood.
But religious people place their faith in trying not to sin, in their works.
You are accusing me of preaching a dead religion...how ironic. I have only spoken of walking in the Spirit...which you then interpret me saying as walking in religion. Perhaps you should re-read your responses to me but this time according to what I actually said. That would help the process along very nicely!
Your idea of walking in the Spirit is trying to walk without sinning.
My idea is that walking in the Spirit is placing your belief, faith, trust and confidenc in Jesus' work on the cross.
Your idea gives you glory in what you do for God.
My idea gives Jesus all the glory.
The bible says all men have sinned...not all men WILL sin. The carnal man WILL sin...but the spiritual man overcomes sin through faith in Christ. Basic gospel 101.
Romans 7:25
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV
Notice Richard is using that "religious people" phrase to point to those who believe we are saved by the law and works, and not by grace through Faith on Jesus Christ. He says those 'try not to sin'. How can someone claim such things with being so ignorant of what even Apostle Paul said that we are to NOT yield our members (flesh) as instruments of sin???
Rom 6:11-7:11
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Paul said for us to try and not sin by that! Don't allow sin to reign in your mortal body which is to obey its lusts!
How can Richard say the direct opposite of that, saying that "religious people" (law abiders) try not to sin, like that's a bad thing!!! especially when even Apostle Paul told us to not allow sin to reign in our lives!
I tell you, either Richard is so blinded with listening to the false prophets where he's getting those ideas from, or he is purposely trying to get those in Christ's Church TO NOT PAY ATTENTION TO SIN IN OUR LIVES AT ALL!
And just who... want us to not pay attention to sin in our lives, with trying not to sin??? The Devil, that's who. Doesn't he know his mocking of those who try not to sin is a working for the Devil who wants us to disregard our sins? That idea also leaves NO... room for future repentance to Christ for sins when we slip up at times! So his doctrine is ALSO... telling us to NOT... repent of our sins when we mess up! And... we as believers on Christ Jesus will... continue to mess up at times, because we all... fall short of the glory of God.
Rom.6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Did Apostle Paul ever... include a condition with that idea of being under grace and not being under the law??? YES! It's in Galatians 5...
Gal 5:16-18
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
(KJV)
What do you think NOT walking in The Spirit means? It means to instead walk by the flesh, which means... sin, and thus back under the law!
Many just don't understand that The New Covenant includes God's act of writing His laws in the minds and hearts of His people BY... The Holy Spirit. THAT... is what The Holy Spirit is given us for. When we receive leadings from The Holy Spirit to NOT... do certain things, The Spirit is keeping us from sin and from breaking God's laws! That's why Apostle Paul also said the following in Galatians 5...
Gal 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
(KJV)
Just what does "temperance" mean there? Do you think that has anything with trying NOT to sin? You bet it does! Temperance is about self-discipline in all things concerning this flesh world, especially temperance over the lusts of our flesh. The way Strong's defined the Greek word for "temperance" means 'self-control'.
But what Richard is saying, is that since we are under Christ's grace it means we aren't to be concerned if we lose... control and sin! In other words, per Richard, Christ's Grace = Lack of Self-Control. I tell you brethren, we are doomed to be of the "five foolish virgins" of Matt.25 that Jesus will tell get away from Him when He returns IF... we heed the doctrine Richard is pushing.
Rom.6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Apostle Paul says, what then, does this mean we can sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? When Paul says, "God forbid" like that, he means NO WAY, DON'T BE FOOLISH!
Rom.6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Paul continues like, don't you know that who you yield yourselves to as servants, his servants you are that you obey? Paul then declares there's only TWO choices, either: 1) "sin unto death", or... 2) "obedience unto righteousness". No.1 is of the Devil; No.2 is of God through His Son Jesus Christ, and it means trying not... to sin, not allowing sin to reign in our mortal bodies.
Rom.6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Just HOW did those Romans there Paul was preaching to do that? It BEGAN when they declared their Faith on Jesus Christ and THEN... left their old lives of sinning; they stopped... allowing sin to reign in their flesh!!! That's how they became servants of righteousness!
What sins did they LEAVE when they came to Christ Jesus by Faith? Paul covered that in Galatians TOO!
Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(KJV)
There's that "sin unto death" part Paul was speaking of back at Romans 6:16. Not Paul said those who follow those things "shall not inherit the kingdom of God." How can he say that to those who are under Christ's Grace? Simple. It's a WARNING to not fall back into doing those things!
God warned us these days today would come when many would fall away from this simplicity in Christ Jesus, treating His Grace as a license for sin.
Rom.6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Paul simply says that as those Romans had once yielded their members as servants of uncleanness and iniquity before having come to Christ, now... instead yield as servants to righteousness unto... what??? Unto HOLINESS! How do we yield our flesh to righteousness of holiness brethren? With no concern if we sin or not? God forbid. We yield to that righteousness and holiness through Christ Jesus by trying NOT... to sin, NOT doing those things Paul warned us about there in Galatians 5 (and in 1 Cor.6, and in Rom.1, and in 1 Timothy 1). The way that is to work is by our heeding and listening to The Holy Spirit as our Guide.
Rom.6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Before they came to Christ Jesus by Faith, they were the servants of... sin. They were apart from righteousness, doomed to death because of sin.
Rom.6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
There it is. Just what KIND of fruit was that then, before the coming to Christ Jesus by Faith? It involved those kind of fruits of the flesh that Paul listed in Galatians 5:17-21 where he said will keep one out of the Kingdom of God.
Rom.6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
HOW were they made free from sin like Paul says??? By Faith on Christ Jesus and then walking by their flesh to do those sins they were once used to doing!
Christ's Salvation will not be mocked with equating His Righteousness with a license to sin still thinking to be under His Righteousness. This is how many in the Church are falling away from Christ Jesus today, not paying to attention to what kind of 'fruits' produced.
Similar threads
