The Great Commandment

[Randy Kluth]

What's so hard about being perfect? We have a few commandments to obey. It isn't always easy doing so, but if we do sin, we repent and try harder.

You refer to the 2 Commandments of Jesus? Love God and love your neighbor. If you read the NT, you will get a glimpse into what that entails. The ideal state of the future immortal Church of God requires all that without any sin at all. The trouble is, we don't become immortals until the resurrection.

Is it hard to keep those 2 Commandments? Not in the sense of taking it on as our rule in life, because that's what Jesus really meant by commanding "perfection" from us. He certainly did not mean Sinless Perfection, since that is impossible.

So what did he mean? He meant that we should adopt a rule that acknowledges sin as wrong and his own righteousness is right. It means we adopt a determination to follow the appropriate standard. That is *being perfect.* In other words, it is assuming the position of choosing to live for Christ, as opposed to any lesser standard.

It is not only "difficult" to be perfect in a sinless way by following the 2 Commandments of Christ, but it is *impossible* to do so. I don't know why you would suggest it's not hard when we're so obviously imperfect ourselves?

Just claiming it is "simple" indicates we're flawed. Just making ourselves to be a model of "perfection" shows our pride and flawed perception concerning the truth that we are all flawed.

I consider the Christian who thinks he or she is "perfect" to be among the most immature of Christians. However, I don't blame anyone for misreading what seems to be the plain statement of Jesus that we should "be perfect." Without further considerations, it can certainly seem to be recommending Sinless Perfection.

But we need to be humble, and learn from others who may have insight from God about this. It would be completely inconsistent of Jesus to call upon us to be perfect when he seemed to imply the exact opposite throughout his ministry.

And so, again, I think Jesus had to mean that we should assume the position of using Christ as our standard of living, rather than to indicate we can be sinless and perfect in doing so. The most mature Christians I know tend to be the most humble. And they frequently and sincerely apologize for their shortcomings, wishing others to be lifted up in their weaknesses.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I sin daily?

yes, you do. Everyone does.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

What's so hard about being perfect? We have a few commandments to obey. It isn't always easy doing so, but if we do sin, we repent and try harder.

you need to learn what sin is.

 

[Randy Kluth]

yes, you do. Everyone does.

For sure. If I say I'm not murdering someone every day, committing adultery every day, and breaking in and stealing every day, does that mean I don't sin daily? Of course not. Sin isn't just a list of evil deeds to be avoided, but much more, a spiritual infection in our flesh that contaminates us always until we are fully redeemed in our new bodies.

I'm amazed that any Christian can't see this. I can only understand it if someone misinterprets Jesus when he said, "Be perfect." Again, it is an attitude of mind to adopt a perfect standard, and not to be sinless in record. To "be perfect" is the equivalent of "accept a perfect standard." It is to "be" a person who adopts a perfect standard. It certainly isn't to be sinless, or Christ wouldn't have had to die for all.

 

[Randy Kluth]

you need to learn what sin is.

Yes, sin under the Law was about faithfully carrying out over 600 observances. But sin was more than just avoiding carrying these 600 plus observances out!

According to Jesus this just indicated that all of these requirements were an effort to mitigate the problem of sin--not to solve it. Mitigating sin meant observing temporal matters that did not bring complete absolution from sin. It meant serving at a temporal temple, under a temporary priesthood, and offering less than satisfactory animal sacrifices.

Only Christ would solve the problem of sin in a final way, meaning that sin could not be solved until Christ himself dealt with it. He became the final temple, priest, and sacrifice by which our *record* of sin was put away. This did not mean, however, that all our capitulation to sins, whether major sins or sins of attitude, would go completely away before the resurrection.

And the redeemed life that Christ now offers us is a battle between the flesh and the spirit, not the promise of sinless righteousness. It is a battle that is not finished until the resurrection. In the meantime, our battle against sinful impulses identifies us as "weak," and characterizes the struggle as "overcoming."

 

[marks]

It's hard to like a guy who comes up to your door every morning and kicks you in the shin.

It's one of those Fruit of the Spirit things.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Jesus said we have to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect. It must be possible, then. Obey a few commandments. We slip, we fall, we get back up, and we try harder.

Of course, what Jesus meant there specifically was that we are to love others equally as God does. Many people misinterpret this passage as an admonition to moral perfection, but that's not what He is saying. The word translated "Perfect" is "complete, mature, consumate", like that. And in the context, this is the meaning.

Matthew 5:43-48 LITV
43) You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor" and hate your enemy; Lev. 19:18
44) but I say to you, Love your enemies; bless those cursing you, do well to those hating you; and pray for those abusing and persecuting you,
45) so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. Because He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and unjust.
46) For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same?
47) And if you only greet your brothers, what exceptional thing do you do? Do not the tax-collectors do so?
48) Therefore, you be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

I think more to what you are saying is where it is written,

1 Peter 1:15-16 KJV
15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16) Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Much love!

Oh, and I still just LOVE your song!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I can't figure out why people think it's impossible to be perfect. Jesus told us we needed to be just that. There are a handful of commandments to obey, and they aren't always easy, but when you sin, you repent and try harder.

Bob, I liked your music too, and have a good spirit. You seem to be expressing honest sentiments, and my picking on your sense of "perfection" is an effort on my part to relieve you of stress--not to just criticize you, discourage you, or treat you as anything other than a brother.

Jesus said his burden is light. To try to be perfect in one sense is an enormous burden! So I don't think Jesus meant that.

Like the other brother said, I think Jesus' call to perfection is a call to maturity, a call to the highest standards of righteousness--not an effort to be perfect in the sense of having a sinless nature. Clearly, we have a sin nature!

Jesus wants, I think, for us to have the highest standards and to adopt that spirit, the Spirit of Christ. We are to live after the Spirit, and not after the flesh. We are to adopt a Spirit of Righteousness, and not a flawed system of justifying sin.

To "be perfect," then, means to not justify any sin at all, to have the highest standards. And this comes, we know, by following after the Spirit of Christ, and by putting to death our flesh.

Inasmuch as we have the flesh, we know we have a sin nature that must constantly be dealt with. So having that nature, it is our job to regularly put it to death, and to therefore restrain our sin nature.

To "be perfect" is simply to live for Christ, a perfect standard. It is to "be" in the Spirit always, not living by any lesser standard. I think your heart is in the right place?

To "be perfect" is to be a "proper Christian." With that I can agree!

 

[Bob Estey]

You refer to the 2 Commandments of Jesus? Love God and love your neighbor. If you read the NT, you will get a glimpse into what that entails. The ideal state of the future immortal Church of God requires all that without any sin at all. The trouble is, we don't become immortals until the resurrection.

Is it hard to keep those 2 Commandments? Not in the sense of taking it on as our rule in life, because that's what Jesus really meant by commanding "perfection" from us. He certainly did not mean Sinless Perfection, since that is impossible.

So what did he mean? He meant that we should adopt a rule that acknowledges sin as wrong and his own righteousness is right. It means we adopt a determination to follow the appropriate standard. That is *being perfect.* In other words, it is assuming the position of choosing to live for Christ, as opposed to any lesser standard.

It is not only "difficult" to be perfect in a sinless way by following the 2 Commandments of Christ, but it is *impossible* to do so. I don't know why you would suggest it's not hard when we're so obviously imperfect ourselves?

Just claiming it is "simple" indicates we're flawed. Just making ourselves to be a model of "perfection" shows our pride and flawed perception concerning the truth that we are all flawed.

I consider the Christian who thinks he or she is "perfect" to be among the most immature of Christians. However, I don't blame anyone for misreading what seems to be the plain statement of Jesus that we should "be perfect." Without further considerations, it can certainly seem to be recommending Sinless Perfection.

But we need to be humble, and learn from others who may have insight from God about this. It would be completely inconsistent of Jesus to call upon us to be perfect when he seemed to imply the exact opposite throughout his ministry.

And so, again, I think Jesus had to mean that we should assume the position of using Christ as our standard of living, rather than to indicate we can be sinless and perfect in doing so. The most mature Christians I know tend to be the most humble. And they frequently and sincerely apologize for their shortcomings, wishing others to be lifted up in their weaknesses.

I see it like this: The Lord gave us two commandments from which hang all the others. All the others would be the Ten Commandments. Be aware that the Lord goes on to define those commandments (such looking lustfully at people, fornication, and homosexuality could be definitions of adultery).

 

[Bob Estey]

yes, you do. Everyone does.

Who told you that?

 

[Bob Estey]

you need to learn what sin is.

Oh?

 

[Bob Estey]

It's one of those Fruit of the Spirit things.

Much love!

I still don't think you'd like me if I came up to your door and kicked you in the shin every day.

 

[Bob Estey]

Of course, what Jesus meant there specifically was that we are to love others equally as God does. Many people misinterpret this passage as an admonition to moral perfection, but that's not what He is saying. The word translated "Perfect" is "complete, mature, consumate", like that. And in the context, this is the meaning.

Matthew 5:43-48 LITV
43) You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor" and hate your enemy; Lev. 19:18
44) but I say to you, Love your enemies; bless those cursing you, do well to those hating you; and pray for those abusing and persecuting you,
45) so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. Because He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and unjust.
46) For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same?
47) And if you only greet your brothers, what exceptional thing do you do? Do not the tax-collectors do so?
48) Therefore, you be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

I think more to what you are saying is where it is written,

1 Peter 1:15-16 KJV
15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16) Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Much love!

Oh, and I still just LOVE your song!

I think the trick here is that being perfect isn't as difficult as one might think. We have a few commandments to follow - that is all. I'm not saying the commandments are easy to follow, but I don't think this is nearly as hard as some people make it out to be.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Who told you that?

the apostle John

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I think the trick here is that being perfect isn't as difficult as one might think. We have a few commandments to follow - that is all. I'm not saying the commandments are easy to follow, but I don't think this is nearly as hard as some people make it out to be.

i think im starting to think you’re a false convert. No actual christian would sit back and pretend to be perfect. None. Im calling you out.

 

[Bob Estey]

the apostle John

I know we've all sinned. I'd like a chapter and verse that says we all sin every day.

 

[Bob Estey]

i think im starting to think you’re a false convert. No actual christian would sit back and pretend to be perfect. None. Im calling you out.

Show me where I said I was perfect.

 

[GEN2REV]

clearly, you dont get it. If you were perfect, you wouldnt need to repent. You sin daily.

So, how did you get allowed back into Christian forums?

You openly admitted to NOT being Christian just a couple months ago and got kicked out of all but the General Discussions and Inter-Faith Forums.

Now you're back - peddling the exact same negative, faithless, propaganda.

 

[GEN2REV]

i cant figure out why ANYONE thinks they could be perfect. Clearly yall aint ever been shown just how totally depraved you are.

I can't figure out why people think it's possible to be perfect? Only Jesus was perfect. That indicates every one else is imperfect. Only legalists demand perfection, because legalists demand conformity to their religious ideas, since it only requires an *external observance,* and not true perfection. It is then thought that by following somebody's idea of perfection that perfection is accomplished by external observance on its own merits.

Clearly, that is not true. Anybody can observe the Sabbath Day. That can be done by a murderer or by an adulterer. External observances do not accomplish perfection. (Not that we are even under a Sabbath Law. That Law was given before final redemption was won through Christ, and only for the Jews.)

So who's standard are you going to require? Are you going to require that Christians *never* hate, *never* have lust, *never* be covetous, or *never* even be argumentative or demeaning? Obviously, the objective is to *try* to be all good things.

But the expectation is that we *overcome* our base natures by a long regular process of choosing to abandon our temptations to selfishness in order to draw upon Christ's strength in our weakness. That requires an admission of our weakness, of our imperfection. And it is an admission that we must rely on Christ regularly for our spiritual cleansing.

Perfection is about striving to obey the Commandments. Stumbling is part of the process. You can't stumble when you carry the attitude that it's impossible to be perfect as God has commanded.

One of the main purposes of the Holy Spirit is to assist us to obey God's Commandments.

Those who discourage, and complain about, others keeping the Commandments will never come close to following Jesus properly. Being a Christian (follower of Christ) is a specific attitude and an active faith that we can, and should strive to, do what God expects of us.

If you love Jesus at all, you would rather fall just shy of the mark than to not even give an effort and to go around discouraging anybody else from trying at all. From my reading of Scripture, God sees those Christians as more wicked than those who don't even know a thing about Him.

We must sanctify ourselves from the negative attitudes of the world.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

So, how did you get allowed back into Christian forums?

You openly admitted to NOT being Christian just a couple months ago and got kicked out of all but the General Discussions and Inter-Faith Forums.

Now you're back - peddling the exact same negative, faithless, propaganda.

well, heres the first one to complain about me.
I’d rather not change the topic of this thread. I will make another thread to explain.