The Greek εις

[Hidden In Him]

Going to deeply into the word plays is not always of beneficial for all concerned.

I think you're getting a little too fearful IMO, LoL. Trusting in the Holy Spirit to guide the interpreter is what alleviates this problem.

Don't get me wrong; I understand the complexities of translation. But the Lord did not leave us without a Helper.

Blessings and peace.

 

[Jay Ross]

The issue is that when a person questions how a word has been translated, that the tradition of ignorance responds with such ferocity that any new Godly insight that any person may have received, is papered over by the deluge of posted protectionism opinions that any new light is lost in the Taurus stench haze such that the new light of day is lost. Satan is happy with our misguided understandings and when anyone comes with a shining light, then Satan wants to push that person into the outer darkness of his extremes where the light being shone on the Truth is no more that a passing challenge to his so called enlightenment.

Satan has many "good" servants willing to do his bidding, even within the "Church." He make people his disciples of his evil.

Shalom

PS: - God does know how to win, and often He does not need us to wing it.

 

[Enoch111]

So then...Jesus has come INTO the world as light, so that whoever believes INTO Him does not remain in darkness.

Fair enough. But idiomatically whosoever believes *in* Him or *on* Him is perfectly in line with the truth. Hence every English translation uses either of those words, and even Young s Literal Translation does not say *into*.

Young's Literal Translation
I a light to the world have come, that every one who is believing in me -- in the darkness may not remain;

 

[Episkopos]

Fair enough. But idiomatically whosoever believes *in* Him or *on* Him is perfectly in line with the truth. Hence every English translation uses either of those words, and even Young s Literal Translation does not say *into*.

Young's Literal Translation
I a light to the world have come, that every one who is believing in me -- in the darkness may not remain;

Yet both bolded words in the above verse are the Greek eis. So there is a problem in translation.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

εις (eis): Definition.."to" or "into"

Let's let the bible reveal the bible...

Then why not have said,

First: '~Let's let the bible reveal the bible...~'
and then, ASK, '~εις (eis): Definition.."to" or "into"~'?

...because '~εις (eis): Definition.."to" or "into"~' already is not John or NT Greek.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The Greeks in their native tongue (language),
Picked up where the OT, and BEFORE Jesus's appearence left off,

Very important point here, There is a four hundred years gap between '~where the OT .. left off~' and the '~Greeks in their native tongue (language) .. picked up~' after Jesus.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

John 12:46 I have come into (εις) the world as light, so that whoever believes in (actually "into" εις) me may not remain in darkness.

So then...Jesus has come INTO the world as light, so that whoever believes INTO Him does not remain in darkness.

The light of God is found IN Jesus.

The word εις implies movement....going from one place to another. We go TO Jesus in order to enter INTO Jesus.

John 12:46 "I have come [elehlutha]..." -:- "I AM come..." Jesus no longer is in the world physically; but He "is come into the world" forever.

'~Jesus has come INTO the world as light...~' -:- "I-LIGHT- unto the world -AM-COME" [EGOH-PHOHS- eis ton kosmon -EGOH]. Jesus the Light of the world is come to / unto / for / with the world in view / for the sake of the world.

'~so that whoever believes in (actually "into" εις) me~' -:- "that everyone BELIEVING [ho pisteuohn] in Me" already, does not '~go TO Jesus in order to enter INTO Jesus~' or '~believes INTO Him~', but is staying in Him already and no longer "may remain in ('en' + Dative) darkness".

It's because when the '~word εις implies movement....going from one place to another~', it is found in the Old Testament used with the Dative. In the New Testament though the word 'eis' means and indicates 'tendency', "towards" or "against" and 'anticipates' something in front or in the future and for this very BASIC reason is always used with the Accusative. The word ''eis' in NT Greek is a case in hand of the Preposition being ruled by the Case, and not the Case being ruled by a Preposition.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Biblical faith is not just believing ABOUT Jesus it is a faith that moves us INTO Jesus where He is. Eternal life is found only in Him. So then we enter into Him where there is light and life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes INTO (εις ) him shall not perish but have eternal life.

No, your signature line rather, gives a much better approach, '~Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended by Christ Jesus.~' It is a matter of the grammatical and logical Past Perfect versus the subjective and emotional Conditional Present or Future.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

We are into something...

meaning... we are up to something.

 

[Enoch111]

Yet both bolded words in the above verse are the Greek eis. So there is a problem in translation.

I wouldn't call it a "problem" at all. Greek is not English, so a proper idiomatic translation would required such differences. The focus should always be on whether these changes distort the meaning, and as you can see, not a single English translation has used *into* but they all make perfect sense theological with *in* or *on* (and *to* is also a possible translation for *into*).

 

[Episkopos]

I wouldn't call it a "problem" at all. Greek is not English, so a proper idiomatic translation would required such differences. The focus should always be on whether these changes distort the meaning, and as you can see, not a single English translation has used *into* but they all make perfect sense theological with *in* or *on* (and *to* is also a possible translation for *into*).

My point is that a little word in like "in" or "on" can make all the difference in the world.

Do you live in a house or on a house? The latter makes me think of Snoopy.

Do we pour water on a cup or into a cup? The former makes me think that the cup has been turned over.

The bible is all about the details.

Did Jesus walk on the water or in the water? The former is a miracle.


If our faith is meant to take us TO Jesus or INTO Jesus that that is very different from believing ABOUT Jesus.

IN English, when we believe in something, we are believing about something. That's all we can humanly do. But is the bible about what is only humanly possible? Or is it something far more profound and miraculous....like walking ON water rather than IN water?

So then the bible is very transportable.....very easily accessed. But the meaning is too deep to be understood properly.
Logically, should we opt for the easy way to understand something....something the flesh can handle? Or should we allow our human understandings to be surpassed in the wonder of it?

Jesus says abide in Me.

We know that Jesus has come into our hearts. He is in us.

But more mysteriously...He wants us to enter into Him. How we understand that will determine the nature of our walks.

Do we already have the fulness of grace? Or is there more that we are missing?

 

[Episkopos]

Very important point here, There is a four hundred years gap between '~where the OT .. left off~' and the '~Greeks in their native tongue (language) .. picked up~' after Jesus.

But the Greek language dates from at least a thousand years before Christ. We have linear a and linear b before that, although that could also been a form of Greek....Mycenean style.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The issue is that when a person questions how a word has been translated, that the tradition of ignorance responds with such ferocity that any new Godly insight that any person may have received, is papered over by the deluge of posted protectionism opinions that any new light is lost in the Taurus stench haze such that the new light of day is lost. Satan is happy with our misguided understandings and when anyone comes with a shining light, then Satan wants to push that person into the outer darkness of his extremes where the light being shone on the Truth is no more that a passing challenge to his so called enlightenment.

Satan has many "good" servants willing to do his bidding, even within the "Church." He make people his disciples of his evil.

Shalom

PS: - God does know how to win, and often He does not need us to wing it.

Interesting post. You write like you have experience in this area. I do was well. Actually, I'm met with one of two responses to the insights He gives me: Either the one you described above, or dead silence. I'm still struggling with what the answer is, but I believe the biggest problem is a general lack of knowledge of the original languages such that most honestly don't know what to think when they see something new presented. They may sense it is correct in their spirit, but they don't have the skills necessary to confirm it on a scholarly level, so they just pass it off as a curiosity and move on...

What do you feel is the answer to this problem? I have a theory of how it could possibly be corrected, but I don't know how effective it will be until I see it in manifestation.

 

[Episkopos]

Continuing from the post above: -

Acts 1:10, 1:11, 1:11, 1:11, 1:12, 1:13, 1:25, 2:5, 2:20, 2:20, 2:22, 2:25, 2:27, 2:31, 2:34, 2:38, 2:39, 3:1, 3:2, 3:3, 3:4, 3:4, 3:8, 3:19, 4:3, 4:3, 4:11, 4:17, 4:30, 5:15, 5:21, 5:21, 5:36, 6:11, 6:12, 6:15, 7:3, 7:4, 7:4, 7:5, 7:9, 7:12, 7:15, 7:16, 7:19, 7:21, 7:26, 7:34, 7:39, 7:53, 7:55, 8:3, 8:5, 8:16, 8:20, 8:23, 8:25, 8:26, 8:27, 8:38, 8:40, 8:40, 9:1, 9:2, 9:2, 9:6, 9:8, 9:17, 9:21, 9:21, 9:26, 9:28, 9:30, 9:30, 9:39, 10:4, 10:5, 10:8, 10:16, 10:22, 10:24, 10:32, 10:43, 11:2, 11:6, 11:8, 11:10, 11:12, 11:13, 11:18, 11:20, 11:22, 11:25, 11:26, 11:27, 11:29, 12:4, 12:10, 12:17, 12:19, 12:25, 13:2, 13:4, 13:4, 13:9, 13:13, 13:13, 13:14, 13:14, 13:22, 13:29, 13:31, 13:34, 13:42, 13:46, 13:47, 13:47, 13:48, 13:51, 14:1, 14:6, 14:14, 14:20, 14:20, 14:21, 14:21, 14:21, 14:22, 14:23, 14:24, 14:25, 14:26, 14:26, 15:2, 15:4, 15:22, 15:30, 15:38, 15:39, 16:1, 16:1, 16:7, 16:8, 16:9, 16:10, 16:11, 16:11, 16:12, 16:15, 16:16, 16:19, 16:23, 16:24, 16:24, 16:34, 16:37, 17:1, 17:5, 17:10, 17:10, 17:20, 17:21, 18:1, 18:6, 18:7, 18:18, 18:19, 18:19, 18:22, 18:22, 18:24, 18:27, 19:1, 19:3, 19:3, 19:4, 19:4, 19:5, 19:8, 19:21, 19:22, 19:22, 19:27, 19:27, 19:29, 19:30, 19:31, 20:1, 20:2, 20:3, 20:6, 20:14, 20:14, 20:15, 20:15, 20:16, 20:17, 20:18, 20:21, 20:21, 20:22, 20:29, 20:38, 21:1, 21:1, 21:1, 21:2, 21:3, 21:3, 21:4, 21:6, 21:6, 21:7, 21:8, 21:8, 21:11, 21:12, 21:13, 21:15, 21:17, 21:26, 21:28, 21:29, 21:34, 21:37, 21:38, 22:4, 22:5, 22:5, 22:7, 22:10, 22:11, 22:13, 22:17, 22:21, 22:23, 22:24, 22:30, 23:10, 23:11, 23:11, 23:15, 23:16, 23:20, 23:28, 23:30, 23:31, 23:32, 23:33, 24:11, 24:15, 24:17, 24:24, 25:1, 25:3, 25:4, 25:6, 25:8, 25:8, 25:8, 25:9, 25:13, 25:15, 25:20, 25:21, 25:23, 26:6, 26:7, 26:11, 26:12, 26:14, 26:16, 26:17, 26:18, 26:18, 26:24, 27:1, 27:2, 27:3, 27:5, 27:6, 27:6, 27:8, 27:12, 27:17, 27:26, 27:30, 27:38, 27:39, 27:40, 27:40, 27:41, 28:5, 28:6, 28:12, 28:13, 28:13, 28:14, 28:15, 28:16, 28:17, 28:23,
Romans 1:1, 1:5, 1:11, 1:16, 1:17, 1:20, 1:24, 1:25, 1:26, 1:26, 1:27, 1:28, 2:4, 2:26, 3:7, 3:22, 3:25, 3:26, 4:3, 4:5, 4:9, 4:11, 4:11, 4:16, 4:18, 4:20, 4:22, 5:2, 5:8, 5:12, 5:12, 5:15, 5:16, 5:16, 5:18, 5:18, 5:18, 5:18, 5:21, 6:3, 6:3, 6:4, 6:12, 6:16, 6:16, 6:16, 6:17, 6:19, 6:19, 6:22, 7:4, 7:5, 7:10, 7:10, 8:7, 8:15, 8:18, 8:21, 8:28, 8:29, 9:5, 9:8, 9:17, 9:21, 9:21, 9:22, 9:23, 9:31, 10:1, 10:4, 10:6, 10:7, 10:10, 10:10, 10:12, 10:14, 10:18, 10:18, 11:9, 11:9, 11:9, 11:9, 11:11, 11:24, 11:32, 11:36, 11:36, 12:2, 12:3, 12:10, 12:16, 13:4, 13:4, 13:6, 13:14, 14:1, 14:9, 14:19, 15:2, 15:4, 15:7, 15:8, 15:13, 15:16, 15:16, 15:18, 15:24, 15:25, 15:26, 15:28, 15:31, 16:5, 16:6, 16:19, 16:19, 16:19, 16:26, 16:26, 16:27,
1 Corinthians 1:9, 1:13, 1:15, 2:7, 4:3, 4:6, 5:5, 6:16, 6:18, 8:6, 8:10, 8:12, 8:12, 8:13, 9:18, 10:2, 10:6, 10:11, 10:31, 11:17, 11:17, 11:22, 11:24, 11:25, 11:33, 11:34, 12:13, 14:8, 14:9, 14:22, 14:36, 15:10, 15:45, 15:45, 15:54, 16:1, 16:3, 16:15,
2 Corinthians 1:4, 1:5, 1:10, 1:11, 1:16, 1:16, 1:21, 1:23, 2:4, 2:8, 2:9, 2:9, 2:12, 2:12, 2:13, 2:16, 2:16, 3:7, 3:13, 3:18, 4:4, 4:11, 4:15, 4:17, 5:5, 6:1, 6:18, 6:18, 7:3, 7:5, 7:9, 7:10, 7:15, 8:2, 8:4, 8:6, 8:6, 8:14, 8:14, 8:22, 8:23, 8:24, 8:24, 9:1, 9:5, 9:8, 9:8, 9:9, 9:10, 9:11, 9:13, 9:13, 9:13, 10:1, 10:5, 10:8, 10:8, 10:13, 10:14, 10:15, 10:15, 10:16, 10:16, 11:3, 11:6, 11:10, 11:13, 11:14, 11:20, 11:31, 12:1, 12:4, 12:6, 13:2, 13:3, 13:4, 13:10, 13:10,
Galatians 1:5, 1:6, 1:17, 1:17, 1:17, 1:18, 1:21, 2:1, 2:2, 2:8, 2:8, 2:9, 2:9, 2:11, 2:16, 3:6, 3:14, 3:17, 3:23, 3:24, 3:27, 4:6, 4:11, 4:24, 5:10, 5:13, 6:4, 6:4, 6:8, 6:8,
Ephesians 1:5, 1:5, 1:6, 1:8, 1:10, 1:12, 1:12, 1:14, 1:14, 1:15, 1:18, 1:19, 2:15, 2:21, 2:22, 3:2, 3:16, 3:19, 3:21, 4:8, 4:9, 4:12, 4:12, 4:13, 4:13, 4:13, 4:15, 4:16, 4:19, 4:30, 4:32, 5:2, 5:31, 5:32, 5:32, 6:18, 6:22,
Philippians 1:5, 1:10, 1:10, 1:11, 1:12, 1:16, 1:19, 1:23, 1:25, 1:29, 2:11, 2:16, 2:16, 2:16, 2:16, 2:22, 3:11, 3:14, 3:16, 4:15, 4:16, 4:17, 4:20,
Colossians 1:4, 1:6, 1:10, 1:11, 1:12, 1:13, 1:16, 1:20, 1:25, 1:29, 2:2, 2:2, 2:5, 2:22, 3:9, 3:10, 3:15, 4:8, 4:11,
1 Thessalonians 1:5, 2:9, 2:12, 2:12, 2:16, 2:16, 3:2, 3:3, 3:5, 3:5, 3:10, 3:12, 3:12, 3:12, 3:13, 4:8, 4:9, 4:10, 4:15, 4:17, 4:17, 5:9, 5:9, 5:15, 5:15, 5:18,
2 Thessalonians 1:3, 1:5, 1:11, 2:2, 2:4, 2:6, 2:10, 2:11, 2:13, 2:14, 2:14, 3:5, 3:5, 3:9,
1 Timothy 1:3, 1:6, 1:12, 1:15, 1:16, 1:17, 2:4, 2:7, 3:6, 3:7, 4:3, 4:10, 5:24, 6:7, 6:9, 6:9, 6:12, 6:17, 6:19,
2 Timothy 1:11, 1:12, 2:20, 2:20, 2:21, 2:21, 2:25, 2:26, 3:6, 3:7, 3:15, 4:10, 4:10, 4:10, 4:11, 4:12, 4:18, 4:18,
Titus 3:12, 3:14,
Philemon 1:5, 1:6,
Hebrews 1:5, 1:5, 1:6, 1:8, 1:14, 2:3, 2:10, 2:17, 3:5, 3:11, 3:18, 4:1, 4:3, 4:3, 4:5, 4:6, 4:10, 4:11, 4:16, 5:6, 6:6, 6:8, 6:10, 6:16, 6:19, 6:20, 7:3, 7:14, 7:17, 7:21, 7:24, 7:25, 7:25, 7:28, 8:3, 8:10, 8:10, 8:10, 9:6, 9:7, 9:9, 9:12, 9:14, 9:15, 9:24, 9:24, 9:25, 9:26, 9:28, 9:28, 10:1, 10:5, 10:12, 10:14, 10:19, 10:24, 10:31, 10:39, 10:39, 11:3, 11:7, 11:8, 11:8, 11:9, 11:11, 11:26, 12:2, 12:3, 12:7, 12:10, 13:8, 13:11, 13:21, 13:21,
James 1:18, 1:19, 1:19, 1:19, 1:25, 2:2, 2:6, 2:23, 3:3, 3:3, 4:9, 4:9, 4:13, 5:3, 5:4,
1 Peter 1:2, 1:3, 1:4, 1:4, 1:5, 1:7, 1:8, 1:10, 1:11, 1:11, 1:12, 1:21, 1:21, 1:22, 1:25, 1:25, 2:2, 2:5, 2:7, 2:8, 2:9, 2:9, 2:14, 2:21, 3:5, 3:7, 3:9, 3:12, 3:20, 3:21, 3:22, 4:2, 4:4, 4:6, 4:7, 4:8, 4:9, 4:10, 4:11, 5:10, 5:11, 5:12,
2 Peter 1:8, 1:11, 1:17, 2:4, 2:9, 2:12, 2:22, 3:7, 3:9, 3:9, 3:18, 1 John 2:17, 3:8, 3:14, 4:1, 4:9, 5:8, 5:10, 5:10, 5:13,
2 John 1:2, 1:7, 1:10,
3 John 1:5,
Jude 1:4, 1:4, 1:6, 1:13, 1:21, 1:25,
Revelation 1:6, 1:11, 1:11, 1:11, 1:11, 1:11, 1:11, 1:11, 1:11, 1:18, 2:10, 2:22, 2:22, 4:9, 4:10, 5:6, 5:13, 6:13, 6:15, 6:15, 7:12, 8:5, 8:7, 8:8, 8:11, 9:1, 9:3, 9:7, 9:9, 9:15, 10:5, 10:6, 11:6, 11:9, 11:12, 11:15, 12:4, 12:6, 12:9, 12:13, 12:14, 12:14, 13:3, 13:6, 13:10, 13:10, 13:13, 14:11, 14:19, 14:19, 15:7, 15:8, 16:1, 16:2, 16:3, 16:4, 16:14, 16:16, 16:19, 17:3, 17:8, 17:11, 17:17, 18:21, 19:3, 19:9, 19:17, 19:20, 20:3, 20:8, 20:10, 20:10, 20:14, 20:15, 21:24, 21:26, 21:27, 22:2, 22:5, 22:14

There are small differences in the respective lists, but the way in which this word is translated into the English Text is dependant on the translator's theological understanding of the message content of the original Greek text and how he determined to express that understanding in the Translated English text.

Going to deeply into the word plays is not always of beneficial for all concerned.

Shalom​

It isn't word plays...it's our foundational way of reading the bible. As you can see the effects of one small word is devastating. Thanks for the list!

Christ coming to live in us is a miracle.

But there is a new miracle awaiting they who seek the Lord for it...entering into Christ.

 

[Taken]

I hate to bring this up, but this is why loss of salvation is possible.

.

Salvation IS "OFFERED" to every single person. It is a Gift that IS already "Theirs", provided FOR Each, already PAID for, for Each To Have and Call their own.....

And The Requirement Is:
A man Must "notify" the Lord they want to Receive their Gift.....Before they Actually "have Possession" of their Gift.

We are spiritually ALIVE when we are INTO Christ...

Not sure your meaning of "INTO" Christ.
A man is Either " IN" Christ or he Isn't.
Christ is Either "IN" a man or He Isn't.

A Converted man is IN Christ and Christ IN the man Forever.

We are spiritually dead if we leave Christ.

This does not apply to a man IN Christ or Christ IN a man.

IF a man is "WITH" (but not IN Christ), that man IS "not" saved or born again.
That man CAN leave Christ, and Christ leave That man....and the man IS thus spiritually Dead and Fallen from faith, and would be a better outcome for the man, to; Never have been "With" Christ then; to have been "With" Christ And have Left Him.

"With" Christ is a man Learning About Christ, Believing in Him and Following His Teachings, and Absolutely at Any time the man CAN Leave Christ, and the man remain spiritually Dead, fallen from faith, having Never Accepted His Gift of Grace of Forgiveness or Gift of Salvation or Quickened spirit.

(Judas case in point). (Ie NOT Converted)

"IN" Christ is a man who has Repented, Accepted Christ's Grace of Forgiveness, Gift of Salvation and Gift of a Quickened spirit and the Promise Christ the He would Forever be "With" and IN That man. (ie Converted)

(Scriptural case in point Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Peter, Paul, John, Mary...)

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Episkopos]

Interesting post. You write like you have experience in this area. I do was well. Actually, I'm met with one of two responses to the insights He gives me: Either the one you described above, or dead silence. I'm still struggling with what the answer is, but I believe the biggest problem is a general lack of knowledge of the original languages such that most honestly don't know what to think when they see something new presented. They may sense it is correct in their spirit, but they don't have the skills necessary to confirm it on a scholarly level, so they just pass it off as a curiosity and move on...

What do you feel is the answer to this problem? I have a theory of how it could possibly be corrected, but I don't know how effective it will be until I see it in manifestation.

It is best to remain open that the more difficult interpretation could be the actual one. The only other source we have for truth is the Holy Spirit after that. The bible is written under His influence, after all.

There is also testimony...but no one believes that any more.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It is best to remain open that the more difficult interpretation could be the actual one.

If by the more theologically deep interpretation, then yes. I agree. I find it to be the case that accurate interpretation is often much more profound than superficial (read "traditional") readings of the text.

 

[Episkopos]

If by the more theologically deep interpretation, then yes. I agree. I find it to be the case that accurate interpretation is often much more profound than superficial (read "traditional") readings of the text.

Theologically deep interpretation...I like that!

Normally I say...difficult.

So then many will seek to enter by the narrow way but will not be able because it is too theologically deep?!

 

[Episkopos]

meaning... we are up to something.

...or..we are up FOR something. (it's those pesky little words!)

 

[Taken]

Very important point here, There is a four hundred years gap between '~where the OT .. left off~' and the '~Greeks in their native tongue (language) .. picked up~' after Jesus.

Yes.

Hebrews heard, agreed to Obey, spread out, and many became accepting of heathen Gentile Ways and customs.

Enter the 12 Tribes of Israel...

10 Tribes we Not accepting of "their" tribal Earthly king and broke away from the remaining 2 Tribes (Judah and Benjamin).

Remaining 2 became commonly called Jews as a People OF Judah.

Their "displacement" out of their lands, effected many adopting heathen Gentile ways and customs. Thus the term "Lost Jews " was Gods reference toward them.

A 400 year Span of time....Then the Lord God Appears on Earth, In the Likeness as a man, a Holy and Faithful Prophet sent From God in Heaven, (Revealed in time as Thee Christ) who came To Seek out The "Lost" Jews and Reveal To them secrets and knowledge that their promised Salvation had Arrived and IS theirs for the Taking/Receiving.

God Bless,
Taken