The Heaven Going Lie - Voting Results

[Hiddenthings]

Jonah 2: 1-7 describes Jonah crying out from the "depth of Sheol". The belly of the whale was not a grave. No, Jonah died and cried out to God. "Water encompassed me to the point of death ... I descended to the roots of the mountains, the earth with its bars (gates) was around me forever, but You have brought up my life FROM THE PIT, O LORD my God."
Luke 16:23-31 is not a parable! Parables don't mension names of real people, like Abraham. What moral truth could be gained from describing a place that does not exist? Parables don't describe fictional, abstract territories.

In relation to your many verses which clearly teach that the soul (life of a person) is saved from the grave:

Save from the Grave Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Psa. 89:48.
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave. Psa. 49:15.
His soul from the pit. Job 33:18; Psa. 30:3.
Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell (or grave: see Marg.). Psa. 86:13.
Thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption. Isa. 38:17.

The Bible is consistent in its message that the whole person enters the grave (sheol, hell, hades, Gehenna etc)

Unfortunately, you’ve adopted a set of introduced notions and are holding onto them so tightly that they are leading you away from a sound reading of the text.

You even quoted the signs of Jonah and yet you still miss the point.

Jonah was three nights in the belly of the fish, so shall the son of man be 3 days and 3 nights in the earth.

Did Jesus destroy the Power of the Grave?
Did he enter death completely to do this?
Did Jesus cease to exist for those three days?

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Ronald David Bruno

Here are the proof text for Christ ceacastion of life in the grave.

Referring to Christ.

• Isaiah 53:10 “Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.”
• Isaiah 53:11 “Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.”
• Isaiah 53:12 “Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.”
• Matthew 26:38 “Then he said to them, ‘My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.’”
• Acts 2:31 “He foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.”
• Psalm 16:10 “For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption.”

This proves that the soul (body, life whole of person) breaks down in the grave.

The challenge for you lies in accurately understanding the word ‘soul’ in its different contexts - regardless they all speak to a person who returns to dust.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the elements will be burned up and loosed, and the earth and the works done in it will be exposed.” (2 Peter 3:10)

A MORE LITERAL AND ACCURATE TRANSLATION:
"and it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up. YLT
OR KJV
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

A “thief” is not committing a crime when he is reclaiming by surprise what is rightfully his. Scripture itself provides a clear precedent: David’s recovery of his wives and possessions from the Amalekites (1 Sam 30). David was not stealing, he was retrieving what had been unlawfully taken. That is precisely the force of the metaphor Christ uses of himself.

Sorry, your symbolism is what is in left field. You have the thief doing something completely opposite, "claiming sonething"
Like a thief in the night means simply quickly, stealthily, while the victims are unaware. That phrase comes from 1 Thes. 5:4, contrasting believers (children of light) with the unprepared world (in darkness), meaning Christians aren't surprised by God's judgment day because they live alert in the light, unlike those caught off guard by a thief at night.

When Christ returns, he is not seizing what belongs to others; he is taking back what is already his.

The passage u clearly speaking of destruction of the earth and universe! It will pass away as reiterated in Rev. 21:4: "All former things have passed away"
It's a powerful promise describing the new heaven and new earth which will replace the physical universe by the New Jerusalem (new heaven/earth.

You stuck in this symbolic mumbo jumbo - whoever taught you this junk?

 

[Hiddenthings]

You stuck in this symbolic mumbo jumbo - whoever taught you this junk?

Your difficulty lies in failing to discern the symbolic meaning; a rigid literalism weakens understanding and obscures the affairs of God and the nature of His coming Kingdom. There remains time to study more carefully and to show yourself approved.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The Bible is consistent in its message that the whole person enters the grave (sheol, hell, hades, Gehenna etc)

No, the Bible is clear that there is one destination of our physical bodies, the grave (or a cremation) AND two destinations for souls at death; one for unbelievers in Christ, our Lord Savior to Hades and for us, heaven. Jesus conquered death (the wages of sin and its punishment); and so we really do not die as Jesus promised in John 11:26: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
You do not believe in the soul as being the essence of the immaterial spiritual person that is living in this tent ( physical body). God has a soul/ spirit. "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights. I have put my spirit upon him." Isaiah 42:1
What do you think "made in His image" means? Spiritual makeup of a person which is the invisible you: mind, will, emotions, talents, personality - it remains with you when you die and leaves your temporary tent. Ours washed washed.
What do you think was cleansed if it wasn't our spiritual soul, our physical bodies? Thus idea that there is nothing more to our physical bodies is what atheists/evolutionists believe.

Jonah was three nights in the belly of the fish, so shall the son of man be 3 days and 3 nights in the earth.

And that means Jonah died and went to the fates of Hades, not a grave and not just in the belly of a fish. His soul descended: "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God" Jonah 2:6
"The earth with her bars" refers to the gates of Hades.

Did Jesus destroy the Power of the Grave?
Did he enter death completely to do this?
Did Jesus cease to exist for those three days

He destroyed death for those who have faith. Our soul/spirit that was cleansed goes to be with the Lord straightway!


Enough! I'M DONE WITH THIS FUTILE DISCUSSION. BELIEVE WHAT YOU WILL.

 

[Hiddenthings]

No, the Bible is clear that there is one destination of our physical bodies, the grave (or a cremation) AND two destinations for souls at death; one for unbelievers in Christ, our Lord Savior to Hades and for us, heaven. Jesus conquered death (the wages of sin and its punishment and so we really do not die as Jesus promised in John 11:26: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

The statement itself is true; it is the mechanics that you have wrong. This is why Paul consistently refers to death as a sleep for the faithful. It is not that the body somehow sleeps apart from an immortal essence, you know better than that.

 

[Hiddenthings]

He destroyed death for those who have faith. Our soul/spirit that was cleansed goes to be with the Lord straightway!

This is a terrible doctrine, and you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

 

[saved by grace 101]

No, the Bible is clear that there is one destination of our physical bodies, the grave (or a cremation) AND two destinations for souls at death; one for unbelievers in Christ, our Lord Savior to Hades and for us, heaven. Jesus conquered death (the wages of sin and its punishment and so we really do not die as Jesus promised in John 11:26: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
You do not believe in the soul as being essence of the immaterial spiritual person that is living in this tent ( physical body). God has a soul/ spirit. "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights. I have put my spirit upon him." Isaiah 42:1
What do you think made in His image means? Spiritual makeup of a person which is then invisible you: mind, will, emotions, talents, personality - it remains with you when you die and leaves your temporary tent. Ours washed washed.
What do you think was cleansed if it wasn't our spiritual soul, our physical bodies.

And that means Jonah died and went to the fates of Hades, not a grave and not just in the belly of a fish. His soul descended: "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God" Jonah 2:6
"The earth with her bars" refers to the gates of Hades.

He destroyed death for those who have faith. Our soul/spirit that was cleansed goes to be with the Lord straightway!


Enough! I'M DONE WITH THIS FUTILE DISCUSSION. BELIEVE WHAT YOU WILL.

I agree with nearly everything you say, well put, and yes Jonah went to the realm of the dead/hades and cried out to God from there.
But, is the soul actually in Heaven?
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Rev6:9&10
Would the souls of those who had died be crying out for vengence if they were actually in Heaven?
Does under the altar mean they are in Heaven itself or a holding place as it were?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I agree with nearly everything you say, well put, and yes Jonah went to the realm of the dead/hades and cried out to God from there.
But, is the soul actually in Heaven?
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Rev6:9&10
Would the souls of those who had died be crying out for vengence if they were actually in Heaven?
Does under the altar mean they are in Heaven itself or a holding place as it were?

"Vengeance is mine, says the Lord." Those souls just arrived in heaven. They have been persecuted on earth, praying for many years through suffering, wanting the end to come. And so they, still grieving after some just getting their heads cut off are just curious as to when it will be over for all.
God's judgment is righteous. They know the difference from good and evil and it is and has been part of the story. That is the question I've been asking for 25 years - When will you come ... how much longer can the world descend into this evil? And I pray come Lord Jesus. Maybe this year?

 

[Hiddenthings]

"Vengeance is mine, says the Lord." Those souls just arrived in heaven. They have been persecuted on earth, praying for many years through suffering, wanting the end to come. And so they, still grieving after some just getting their heads cut off are just curious as to when it will be over for all.
God's judgment is righteous. They know the difference from good and evil and it is and has been part of the story. That is the question I've been asking for 25 years - When will you come ... how much longer can the world descend into this evil? And I pray come Lord Jesus. Maybe this year?

The lives of those given are asleep awaiting the resurrection just as the Apostle taught you. Hebrews 11:39-end teaches the body of Christ will be glorified together as one.

 

[saved by grace 101]

"Vengeance is mine, says the Lord." Those souls just arrived in heaven. They have been persecuted on earth, praying for many years through suffering, wanting the end to come. And so they, still grieving after some just getting their heads cut off are just curious as to when it will be over for all.
God's judgment is righteous. They know the difference from good and evil and it is and has been part of the story. That is the question I've been asking for 25 years - When will you come ... how much longer can the world descend into this evil? And I pray come Lord Jesus. Maybe this year?

Well without wishing to deflect the topic of the thread, I would say that will not happen until the abomination that causes desolation has done its work

 

[Rockerduck]

I had never owned a bible, but once I received the Holy Spirit, I knew two things. I was saved by Christ alone and I was going to Heaven. It doesn't matter the "how" or the "when", but "it will" is what matters. That was 40 years ago. Since then, Jesus himself told me my sins are forgiven and I'm washed whiter than snow by His blood, as far as the east is from the west, He will remember my sins no more.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Well without wishing to deflect the topic of the thread, I would say that will not happen until the abomination that causes desolation has done its work

Rev. 6:9-10 is a future event of course. Matthew 24:15 may have happened in 70 AD. Titus stood in the Temple before he ordered its destruction and an estimated 1 million Jews were killed from 67-70 AD. He caused desolation in Jerussalem and scattered remaining Jews - certainly a great Tribulation for them. I am not an adherent to this 70 weeks of Daniel/ the Gap Theory. But I do know a Great Tribulation is coming to the entire earth - which part of Matthew 24 addressed, Rev. 6-19, Dan. 12 and many other OT prophecies.
Going into this would derail thread. I am exiting the thread, so maybe start a different thread and I'll comment on it.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Rev. 6:9-10 is a future event of course. Matthew 24:15 may have happened in 70 AD. Titus stood in the Temple before he ordered its destruction and an estimated 1 million Jews were killed from 67-70 AD. He caused desolation in Jerussalem and scattered remaining Jews - certainly a great Tribulation for them. I am not an adherent to this 70 weeks of Daniel/ the Gap Theory. But I do know a Great Tribulation is coming to the entire earth - which part of Matthew 24 addressed, Rev. 6-19, Dan. 12 and many other OT prophecies.
Going into this would derail thread. I am exiting the thread, so maybe start a different thread and I'll comment on it.

Jesus said the abomination that causes desolation would result in horrors unseen since the creation of the world and would never be seen again. Jesus said the result would mean darkness. In Rev8 it says one third of the sun and moon will not shine, meaning one third of the earth will be covered in darkness, and a third of the land and trees will be burned up. Man has the means by which to fulfill these prophecies now.
I watched a programme years ago, it said if there was a nuclear war between the main countries that had those weapons, the result would be a cloud would cover one third of the earth, the sun and moon therefore would not shine on one third of the earth, one third of the earth would be covered in darkness. A third of the land and trees would be burned up. It would be a horror unseen since the creation of the world, caused by an abomination that causes desolation.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Jesus said the abomination that causes desolation would result in horrors unseen since the creation of the world and would never be seen again. Jesus said the result would mean darkness. In Rev8 it says one third of the sun and moon will not shine, meaning one third of the earth will be covered in darkness, and a third of the land and trees will be burned up. Man has the means by which to fulfill these prophecies now.
I watched a programme years ago, it said if there was a nuclear war between the main countries that had those weapons, the result would be a cloud would cover one third of the earth, the sun and moon therefore would not shine on one third of the earth, one third of the earth would be covered in darkness. A third of the land and trees would be burned up. It would be a horror unseen since the creation of the world, caused by an abomination that causes desolation.

Absolutely agree. The desolation that Jerusalem suffered in 70AD is small change when applied to the entire world. Many things are repeated in the Bible. Israel was the test case, the chosen nation and now the rest of the world will be tested.
I think the 1/3 of earth being on fire and other cataclysmic events will be centered in the Middle East. If you drew a circle around Jerusalem that had a 4,000 mile radius, that would be 1/3 of the planet. So again Jerusalem will be the center of troubles. It has been the center of Light too; but troubles as well. Armageddon will be there. Jesus will descend from Heaven to Jerusalem and war against His enemies and will destroy them. "Blood up to a horses bridle for 200 miles" translates into hundreds of millions of dead bodies.
When it's over, He'll be King. Actually I think He will build the final Temple..but many believe one will be built before He shows up. ??? Don 't think there is that much time left.