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Featured The Holiness of God and the Holiness of Man

Discussion in 'Christian Spirituality Forum' started by marks, Nov 18, 2019.

  1. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    It's a matter of 'looking unto Jesus' (Hebrews 12.2) and prayerfully searching the Scriptures, indeed...
     
  2. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps wait and see if this holds true in this discussion.

    :)
     
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  3. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Well, half the reason I start threads like this is to hear things like this from people like you!

    I love this part:

    Much love!
     
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  4. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    Yes, this is the theological terminology I'm lacking. :)
     
  5. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Prayer Warrior,

    What interests me at the moment is in what way are we holy, and in what way are we becoming holy?

    I realize the apparent contradiction, but in truth I don't think there is a contradiction.

    We are holy, but we don't always act holy. The inside must come to the outside. That which is true in the new man must overwhelm the effect of the flesh man.

    I think that many see themselves as unholy, or partly holy and partly not, because what they see of themselves is a mixed bag.

    So I ask, how holy do we need to be to be unified with the Holy One of Israel?

    If I identify with the old man, I can feel disqualified. But when I realize that God, the Holy One, has united me to Himself, has made me one with Him, then I need to realize what this means.

    How can I be united to an Holy God if I am not holy also?

    Much love!
     
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  6. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for explaining more fully. This is something I know about, but I've had the hardest time putting it into words, so please bear with me.

    You said this: "If I identify with the old man, I can feel disqualified. But when I realize that God, the Holy One, has united me to Himself, has made me one with Him, then I need to realize what this means."

    The important word here is "feel." You may FEEL disqualified, but this is a not the truth. You need to understand how salvation works and who you are in Christ.

    This is reality for the Christian: we ARE saved; we ARE holy; we HAVE been made righteous; we ARE in Christ; we ARE in the Spirit because we were placed there when we were born from above. I guess some would call this positional. (That's what farouk called it, and he probably knows more theology than I do, lol).

    Even though we ARE in the Spirit (or live in the Spirit), we don't always walk by the Spirit. Paul explains this in Galatians 5.

    Galatians 5:26-26--I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

    Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar. I tell you about these things in advance — as I told you before — that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, we must also follow [walk in] the Spirit. We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
    My understanding from these verses is that we ARE in the Spirit (positionally). But we must choose to walk by the Spirit.

    What you said about BEING holy, but not always acting holy, pretty much hits the nail on the head. Because we've been made righteous and holy, we can choose to act and live in this way by the power of the Holy Spirit. We really have to decide to live His way no matter what.

    So, how do we walk but the Spirit? It's all by His grace--His saving and sustaining POWER. I see this as a moment-by-moment choice to submit ourselves to the Holy Spirit's control. It's not that we have to think about it constantly, but when faced with the choice to walk by the Spirit or the flesh, we have to choose by faith to count the flesh as crucified and submit to Him at that moment by grace.

    It helps to be able to discern when the flesh is trying to kick in. The Holy Spirit will teach us this if we ask. It also helps to stay in His Word daily and worship Him throughout the day. Of course, we can quench the Spirit by allowing wrong thoughts when the fiery darts come from the devil. And they do come!! We have to deflect them with the shield of faith. By faith, we have to keep this truth in the forefront of our minds:

    Galatians 2:20--I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    If you need to plaster this scripture (or any other scriptures that will help you) on the walls of your house to remind you, then do it. Say them out loud when you need a reminder of the truth. It is the truth that sets us free!

    I'm really sensing your desire to live for Jesus Christ, so I hope what I've shared is helpful to you. I pray that the Holy Spirit will give you the understanding you need. :)
     
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  7. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Your post brings joy, Prayer Warrior!

    Yes, feelings do not equal reality. And downward feelings tend to change Very Quickly when we return our focus to the love of God, and His presence in our lives.

    This idea of "positional righteousness", if I understand what people mean when they use that term, how could that exist?

    Doesn't this mean to treat as righteous that which is not righteous? OK, this would be the idea of Imputed Righteousness, being discussed elsewhere.

    But I don't know that Imputed Righteousness addresses my OP.

    Can we be one with an Holy God if we are not actually holy ourselves? Not positionally or imputed, but by virtue of having an holy nature, just as God's nature is holy?

    And in Scripture I see where we've been recreated patterned after Him, in righteousness and true holiness. I see where we are partakers of His nature, having escaped from corruption.

    We are in the Spirit, and we are to walk in the Spirit, I like to remind . . . we are the spirit children of God indwelling bodies of flesh of the Adamic creation. And though we inhabit within the Adamic creation, we are a new creation, a new humanity, who finds it's life in Christ, the Lord of Heaven, and we will transcend all things of this creation in the age to come.

    And yet even in that reality . . .


    "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

    My understanding is that being the spirit childen of God, sharing His nature, and told to renew my mind according to knowledge of Him, told to put on that new creation, or, here, walk in the Spirit, this is to say that the holy thing that God birthed, me, that I need to bring my celestial nature to bear in the terrestrial realm.

    I have to put off the old man, that is, the way of living of the man from Adam, and put on the new man, the new and righteous and holy child of God.


    Amen!!

    I think the Bible gives us a number of ways to understand these things.

    What you mention here, like Romans 12, offering your self a living sacrifice, being transformed as we refuse to be conformed.

    Reckoning ourselves dead to sin, and alive unto God in Christ.

    Faith is always the center, by the same faith that saves, by faith in Jesus we have access into the grace in which we stand.

    I'm glad you mention this, it's really important. We can so easily drift! I find there's a sense of discomfort in my heart the moment I start to allow my focus to move off of God, and walking in faith in Him. This is where difficulties can be so important, as need more fully directs our faith towards our Father.

    Yes He will, praise Him! Hebrews speaks of our putting into practice what we read in the word, and that by doing so, we will learn more of what is good and evil. And of course it's the Word of God that discerns within us.

    For me more importantly, keeping the Word and worship throughout the day, this is what helps me to stay walking in the Spirit.

    Anything that attacks our confidence in God that all things are working for our good. Anything that attacks our confidence that Jesus Christ is living His life in me, making my life as His, transforming me to be as He is, these thoughts are to be immediately detected and denied.

    I've learned with myself that that first momentary flicker within that "something is wrong", with me, with anything, is the distant early warning that trouble is indeed coming, unless, that is, I remember, God loves me, and God is with me. And then all is well with me, and with all things.


    One of my very favorite songs, I listen to this all the time . . .



    I'm into Total Immersion!

    Thank you!!

    Much love!
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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  8. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing the song! Jesus Culture has some great ones.

    I'm assuming the questions in this post are for answering, and I will get to them when I can. You have a very good grasp on this already, though, so I'm not sure that I can add much.

    Blessings!
     
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  9. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    That would mean while you are still carnal, so the answer is that it would be impossible to be holy at all.
     
  10. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 12:14
    Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.

    That should give everyone on these forums of different denominations and beliefs pause when debating with someone of a different belief system. Let us reason together in love.

    Revelation 22:11
    "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

    If someone if filthy, and believes they are good to go because of imputed righteousness, I think this verse means actual righteousness and holiness. What do others think?
     
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  11. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Is light united with darkness?

    We have been cleansed from our sin, but our natures are still sinfull and we have to struggle against temptation, constantly turning to God for renewed forgiveness.

    We will only be truely clean when we are transformed by Jesus's coming.
     
  12. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what you have been taught or by whom, but our "nature" is what has been born again. Sin no longer has power over us. We can resist temptation and not let it go all the way to sin. Jesus said to be perfect, just as My Father in heaven is perfect. How can anyone believe His words with your doctrine??? It is a doctrine of defeat, not victory.

    Why do you believe we are still a slave to sin? Don't you know that He frees us from sin, so that you can be "free indeed." John 8:34-36
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  13. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Just so!

    When we remember what Jesus said to His disciples, by their love for one another the world will know that Jesus sent them! Wow!

    Do we post because we seek to give something to others, or to win a debate? Show how clever we are?

    I believe Christ's propitiation is sufficient for all, but that with the imputation of righteousness also comes the impartation of righteousness. This passage to me is like saying, you are who and what you are.

    Jesus is the true judge, as He sees the heart, so we can't fully know by someone's behavior where they stand with God, just the same, we should look to God's impartation of righteousness to transform our own behavior to be righteous. Without that happening, we should be asking ourselves some serious questions about our faith, and what we believe, and our standing with God.

    Much love!
     
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  14. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Windmillcharge,

    I believe light is not united to darkness, and that God changes us from darkness to light by rebirth from Him.

    If "My" nature is sinful, how can we say that I am a partaker of God's nature, as in Peter? Or that I'm made in God's pattern, as in Ephesians?

    Do we need "struggle" against temptation, or is a simply faith in Jesus' upholding power sufficient? I believe it is.

    I think when we find ourselves in the stuggle against temptation we've already left the firm foundation of our faith.

    Our wrestling is not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers. Have you considered that in saying "our wrestling is not against flesh and blood", this could include our own flesh? That God didn't mean for us to have this constant struggle to avoid sin?

    Do you know that any temptation to any sin in my life is immediately and fully defeated in by bringing to my awareness two facts, one being, God is here with me, the other, God loves me.

    As I focus myself on these truths, this is where I find victory. All the effort and agonizing over temptation, I find to be a work of my flesh, in attempting to reform my behavior in my own doing.

    I'm trying to control the old man.

    But when I focus on my relationship with my Father, I am free from that old man. My life is not in the old man. My life is in my Father. And it's my relationship with Him that both guides and empowers my actions.

    There is no stain of sin, all sin is revealed to be of the old man, and I am the new man. So there is never anything to hinder my conscious enjoyment of my relationship with my Father at all times, except of course if I forget these things are true.

    Then, I'm liable to start thinking I have to make things happen, keep things from happening, be in control.

    What I really need to do is to always realize I'm the child, He's the Parent, just stay close to Him, and He'll take care of everything.

    Your thoughts?

    Much love!
     
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  15. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    I love your wording, Mark! The imputation is outward, whereas the impartation is inward.
     
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  16. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That is exactly what salvation by GRACE through faith is all about.

    For He [the Father] hath made Him [the Son] to be SIN for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor 5:21)
     
  17. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    There was another thread on a similar topic that helped me with this wording. One of the things I love about being on a good forum!

    Much love!
     
  18. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    How this "dichotomy" different than the "double mindedness" mentioned the book of James? Is not everyone double-minded when they first come to the Lord?
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  19. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Or perhaps a better a question would be, what do we need to be so that the Holy One of Israel will live in us? How about surrendered and surrendering to God?
     
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  20. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    You ask, is surrendered and surrendering to God sufficient, does that mean, and still not be holy?

    Will God live in you, unite you to Himself if your are surrendered, but not holy?

    As I think of holiness, the one who holy is intrinsically surrendered, as it means we are entirely set apart for God.

    I think you are more correct in referring to our double-mindedness. Tossing back and forth from the mind of the flesh into the mind of Christ then back to the mind of the flesh again. We look at ourselves in the mirror, the go away . . . forget . . . what Sort of man we are!

    Not the man born from Adam, the man born from God.

    There's what we see, and there is what we believe.

    As we don't walk by seeing, instead walking by believing.

    Much love!
     
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