The Holiness of God and the Holiness of Man

[amadeus]

In the context of holiness, what does this verse mean?

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Rev 18:4

Or this one?

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

Very simply they both mean that we must be growing more holy or we will stagnate. What happens to a pool of unmoving water with no outlet after a period of time?

 

[amadeus]

You ask, is surrendered and surrendering to God sufficient, does that mean, and still not be holy?

Will God live in you, unite you to Himself if your are surrendered, but not holy?

Consider what it means to be surrendered and to be holy. God built a protective barrier of mediators between Himself and His called people because as He had told Moses:

"...Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Ex 33:20

But God was working in men like Moses and later Samuel to show what would eventually be possible for 'whosoever will' as a result of the work of His Son, Jesus.

Holiness as someone already pointed out is simply speaking, "set apart". Set apart from what? From the ways of men or the ways of the flesh on the one hand and on the other hand into the Way of God. In order to be holy at all, we must surrender. This is a move toward the Father, is it not, that is when the Father draws us? Jesus put it like this:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

Remember little Samuel, the son of Hannah in beginning of I Samuel? He was set apart [holy] by God through his mother, Hannah, when she promised him to God. Then he was moved closer [set more apart from the world] when she kept her promise by taking him to and leaving him with Eli, the high priest of God. He was already growing, that is becoming more set apart/holy:

"And the child Samuel grew on, and was in favour both with the LORD, and also with men." I Sam 2:26

But, he was to be holier still as we see when we continue read about him. The LORD called him. Finally on the third call Samuel answered saying:

"...the LORD called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I." I Sam 3:4

But growth of Samuel toward God, his being set apart was not finished:

"And Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him, and did let none of his words fall to the ground.' I Sam 3:19

As I think of holiness, the one who holy is intrinsically surrendered, as it means we are entirely set apart for God.

You are speaking of the final condition. This is where Jesus was as an overcomer.

When it came to little Samuel who became a great man of God, it was a growing process. Early on, little Samuel was subject to old Eli, a very poor example himself, but still the high priest. In God's first definitive message through Samuel a Word was spoken in judgement against old Eli. Before the end of his natural life, Samuel had become perhaps the greatest of the judges of Israel. He was set apart when his mother bore by her vow to God. Eventually he was set apart based on his own surrendering, his humility before first Eli, the badly ordered high priest, and finally before God Himself. For a period of time there was no holier man in Israel. Can any of lay claim to being now holier than Samuel? Hmmm, if not, why not?

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Matt 11:11

I think you are more correct in referring to our double-mindedness. Tossing back and forth from the mind of the flesh into the mind of Christ then back to the mind of the flesh again. We look at ourselves in the mirror, the go away . . . forget . . . what Sort of man we are!

Not the man born from Adam, the man born from God.

Yes, Adam was born of God, but then he died for disobedience and all of his offspring were born dead, until Jesus brought the gift of Life to replace the death in men. But, we are born babies with bad habits which when followed lead us back to sin. This is why these habits also must be overcome. While these habits remain in any measure to that extent after we have been born again we remain double-minded. This is the growing process, the process following the type or shadow we saw in the prophet Samuel of being set apart, of becoming holier. When we are first born again, we still have not overcome all of those evil ways, those bad habits... But the Way is from that point open.

There's what we see, and there is what we believe.

As we don't walk by seeing, instead walking by believing.

Much love!

Each step is taken by faith. He lightens the pathway but only just far enough ahead for us to set our foot down in a step forward without stumbling. The subsequent steps will lightened as there is need to step out again as we continue into Him and apart from the ways of flesh.

 

[marks]

Here's one from my playlist that relates to this topic . . .

 

[amadeus]

Consider the flesh remains with you so long as your remain in it. But you need not think it's thoughts ever. All you need do is live the life of Christ by faith, simply looking each moment for His grace to empower your life.

Much love!

Indeed, "looking" and this is why the Apostle Paul admonishes us:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

This is because any Life that we have is due to the quickening of the Spirit in us. When we quench the Spirit, we put out the Light of God in us and step forward at out peril into darkness. We are unable to see. We are unable to "look"!

 

[marks]

@amadeus , do you believe you are unified with God? One with Him?

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus , do you believe you are unified with God? One with Him?

When I am walking in the Spirit, I am one in purpose with Him. When anyone, [me too!] is not walking in the Spirit, they are not one with God as David was not one with God when was committing adultery with Bathsheba or giving the command to place her husband Uriah in the hottest part of the battle so he would be killed... yet, the Bible speaks of David being a man after God's own heart and as the apple of God's eye. This is an in and out situation depending one whether we are following the Holy Spirit or quenching the Holy Spirit. The choice is always ours. God will always help us in this... if we ask. Such a request would not be amiss.

 

[epostle]

Question . . . How holy do you need to be so the Holy One of Israel will live in you?

"Holy One of Israel" is a title found 37 times in the Bible, and only in the Old Testament. It always refers to God Who had not yet been fully revealed, who didn't live in anybody. In the strict literal sense, the first person still under the Old Covenant was a humble woman from Nazareth, a village of little significance.

The Holy One of Israel fused with His creation, physical matter, human flesh. The New Covenant Era did not begin with the first verse in Matthew. It began with a divine announcement from God through a high ranking angel. The Holy One of Israel fused with His creation, a woman, a bridge between 2 Covenants. The Old Covenant Era began when Eve said "No." The New Covenant Era began when the New Eve said "Yes".

Redeemer in the Womb​

This greatest event of all time, the Incarnation brought ALL creation to a new height. From good, to better to Perfect. Scripture does not forbid physical matter formed by human hands that says something about Himself, because He used physical matter as a means to become one with us.

Obviously, this humble woman from a hick town did the will of God. All who strive to do the will of God are holy enough to have the Holy One of Israel live in us.

Jesus elevates us to the status of His mother when we do the will of God, just like she did, but she did it perfectly. (Matthew 12:46-50) He doesn't lower her status to our level. This should explain why these verses are not the anti-Mary "gotcha" verses used by the biblically illiterate. The result of that error is having Jesus putting His mother down in public, thus violating "Honor your father and mother". This is impossible for Jesus to do.

Our Blessed Mom can be

1. a human model of faith
2. that we can emulate
3. to do the will of God
4. to be holy enough to have the Holy One of Israel
5. live in us.

The time line biblically ordered.
We don't need her to do the will of God, but it helps. It's is no different from the support we get from family, friends, pastor and community that aid us along our walk with the Lord. They are all humans too.

 

[CharismaticLady]

"Holy One of Israel" is a title found 37 times in the Bible, and only in the Old Testament. It always refers to God Who had not yet been fully revealed, who didn't live in anybody. In the strict literal sense, the first person still under the Old Covenant was a humble woman from Nazareth, a village of little significance.

The Holy One of Israel fused with His creation, physical matter, human flesh. The New Covenant Era did not begin with the first verse in Matthew. It began with a divine announcement from God through a high ranking angel. The Holy One of Israel fused with His creation, a woman, a bridge between 2 Covenants. The Old Covenant Era began when Eve said "No." The New Covenant Era began when the New Eve said "Yes".

Redeemer in the Womb​

This greatest event of all time, the Incarnation brought ALL creation to a new height. From good, to better to Perfect. Scripture does not forbid physical matter formed by human hands that says something about Himself, because He used physical matter as a means to become one with us.

Obviously, this humble woman from a hick town did the will of God. All who strive to do the will of God are holy enough to have the Holy One of Israel live in us.

Jesus elevates us to the status of His mother when we do the will of God, just like she did, but she did it perfectly. (Matthew 12:46-50) He doesn't lower her status to our level. This should explain why these verses are not the anti-Mary "gotcha" verses used by the biblically illiterate. The result of that error is having Jesus putting His mother down in public, thus violating "Honor your father and mother". This is impossible for Jesus to do.

Our Blessed Mom can be

1. a human model of faith
2. that we can emulate
3. to do the will of God
4. to be holy enough to have the Holy One of Israel
5. live in us.

The time line biblically ordered.
We don't need her to do the will of God, but it helps. It's is no different from the support we get from family, friends, pastor and community that aid us along our walk with the Lord. They are all humans.

Jesus taught the New Covenant, but it was during the Old Covenant which did not end until Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished." But then it still did not start until the Holy Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost. The Old Covenant was the LAW. The New Covenant is the SPIRIT.

 

[epostle]

Jesus taught the New Covenant, but it was during the Old Covenant which did not end until Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished." But then it still did not start until the Holy Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost. The Old Covenant was the LAW. The New Covenant is the SPIRIT.

"It is finished" is the fulfilment of the Passover according to Old Testament prophecy, not the OT in it's entirety, and not the heresies of John Calvin. What you are saying is the Incarnation, the greatest event of all time, is not part of the New Covenant. This is absurd. The birth of the Church occurred at Pentecost, it did not obliterate the Old Covenant and neither did the Incarnation but FULFILLED IT.

The Old Covenant contained the LAW, but it was not the LAW itself. LAW refers to the Ten Commandments as well as Mosaic dietary restrictions. The LETTER of the law leads to death, the SPIRIT of the law is life. Paul was referring to the Old Testament because the New Testament did not yet exist. The SPIRIT of the Old Covenant LAW is what the scribes and Pharisees missed. That has nothing to do with the PHYSICALITY of the New Covenant, and nothing to do with the Holy One of Israel living in us. It seems you unbiblically oppose physicality and favor spirit, and if you are going to argue about it, do it on Scriptural grounds, not Gnostic or Docetic ones.

 

[Windmillcharge]

I'm not sure what you have been taught or by whom, but our "nature" is what has been born again. Sin no longer has power over us. We can resist temptation and not let it go all the way to sin. Jesus said to be perfect, just as My Father in heaven is perfect. How can anyone believe His words with your doctrine??? It is a doctrine of defeat, not victory.

Why do you believe we are still a slave to sin? Don't you know that He frees us from sin, so that you can be "free indeed." John 8:34-36

1John1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
Even Paul said that he did the 'evil' he didn't want to do.
Sin and our sinful natures are a basic fact of real life.
As v 8 say are you decieving yourself?

 

[Windmillcharge]

Hi Windmillcharge,

I believe light is not united to darkness, and that God changes us from darkness to light by rebirth from Him.

If "My" nature is sinful, how can we say that I am a partaker of God's nature, as in Peter? Or that I'm made in God's pattern, as in Ephesians?

Do we need "struggle" against temptation, or is a simply faith in Jesus' upholding power sufficient? I believe it is.

I think when we find ourselves in the stuggle against temptation we've already left the firm foundation of our faith.

Our wrestling is not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers. Have you considered that in saying "our wrestling is not against flesh and blood", this could include our own flesh? That God didn't mean for us to have this constant struggle to avoid sin?

Do you know that any temptation to any sin in my life is immediately and fully defeated in by bringing to my awareness two facts, one being, God is here with me, the other, God loves me.

As I focus myself on these truths, this is where I find victory. All the effort and agonizing over temptation, I find to be a work of my flesh, in attempting to reform my behavior in my own doing.

I'm trying to control the old man.

But when I focus on my relationship with my Father, I am free from that old man. My life is not in the old man. My life is in my Father. And it's my relationship with Him that both guides and empowers my actions.

There is no stain of sin, all sin is revealed to be of the old man, and I am the new man. So there is never anything to hinder my conscious enjoyment of my relationship with my Father at all times, except of course if I forget these things are true.

Then, I'm liable to start thinking I have to make things happen, keep things from happening, be in control.

What I really need to do is to always realize I'm the child, He's the Parent, just stay close to Him, and He'll take care of everything.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

1John1:8If we claim to be without sin,we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

It is not us or our focus that changes anything, but our relationship with Jesus.

Jesus became sin inorder to pay the penalty we deserved.
Our faith has nothing to do with us and everything to do with Jesus's love for us.

 

[CharismaticLady]

"It is finished" is the fulfilment of the Passover according to Old Testament prophecy, not the OT in it's entirety, and not the heresies of John Calvin. What you are saying is the Incarnation, the greatest event of all time, is not part of the New Covenant. This is absurd. The birth of the Church occurred at Pentecost, it did not obliterate the Old Covenant and neither did the Incarnation but FULFILLED IT.

The Old Covenant contained the LAW, but it was not the LAW itself. LAW refers to the Ten Commandments as well as Mosaic dietary restrictions. The LETTER of the law leads to death, the SPIRIT of the law is life. Paul was referring to the Old Testament because the New Testament did not yet exist. The SPIRIT of the Old Covenant LAW is what the scribes and Pharisees missed. That has nothing to do with the PHYSICALITY of the New Covenant, and nothing to do with the Holy One of Israel living in us. It seems you unbiblically oppose physicality and favor spirit, and if you are going to argue about it, do it on Scriptural grounds, not Gnostic or Docetic ones.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has FREED us from the law of sin and death, also called the ministry of death. Romans 8:2; 2 Corinthians 3:7; Exodus 34:28

 

[CharismaticLady]

1John1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
Even Paul said that he did the 'evil' he didn't want to do.
Sin and our sinful natures are a basic fact of real life.
As v 8 say are you decieving yourself?

Yes, everyone born on the face of the earth is born into sin. If you say you haven't been and vs. 8 and 10 imply, you are a liar, because everyone has sinned. But if you repent, are baptized into Jesus you are cleansed of all your sin, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit which keeps you from sinning willfully again. 1 John 3:9

 

[epostle]

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has FREED us from the law of sin and death, also called the ministry of death. Romans 8:2; 2 Corinthians 3:7; Exodus 34:28

Does that cancel out Old Testament prophecies about Jesus' restorative PHYSICAL death? Do you believe Jesus is all SPIRIT, with no physical Body? Of course you don't.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has FREED us from the law of sin and death indeed, but you are missing the point. Jesus didn't abolish ritual and physicality, He perfected them. Defending a non-physical spirituality is a big problem for you.

Ritual and “physicality” were not abolished by the coming of Christ. Quite the contrary: it was the Incarnation that fully established sacramentalism as a principle in the Christian religion. The latter may be defined as the belief that matter can convey grace. It’s really that simple, at bottom, or in essence. God uses matter both to help us live better lives (sanctification) and to ultimately save us (regeneration and justification), starting with baptism itself.

The atonement or redemption of Christ (His death on the cross for us) was not purely “spiritual".

” It was as physical (“sacramental,” if you will) as it could be, as well as spiritual. Protestants often piously refer to “the Blood of Jesus,” and rightly so (see Rev 5:9; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Heb 9:12; 1 Pet 1:2; 1 Jn 1:7; etc.). This is explicitly sacramental thinking.

Sacramentalism and the Bible

It was the very suffering of Jesus in the flesh, and the voluntary shedding of His own blood, which constituted the crucial, essential aspect of His work as our Redeemer and Savior. One can’t avoid this: “he was bruised for our iniquities” (Is 53:5).

So it is curious that many appear to possess a pronounced hostility to the sacramental belief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, seeing that it flows so straightforwardly from the Incarnation and the Crucifixion itself. This brings to mind an analogy to the Jewish and Muslim disdain for the Incarnation as an unthinkable (impossible?) task for God to undertake. They view the Incarnation in the same way a majority of Protestants regard the Eucharist.

For them, God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become a man (such a thought is blasphemous; unthinkable!). For many (not all) Protestants, God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become substantially, physically, sacramentally present under the outward forms of bread and wine. The dynamic or underlying premise is the same. If Christ could become man, He can surely will to be actually and truly present in what was formerly (and still looks like) bread and wine, once consecrated.

The New Testament is filled with incarnational and sacramental indications: instances of matter conveying grace.

• The Church is the “Body” of Christ (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22-23; 5:30),
• and marriage (including its physical aspects) is described as a direct parallel to Christ and the Church (Eph 5:22-33; esp. 29-32).
• Jesus even seems to literally equate Himself in some sense with the Church, saying He was “persecuted” by Paul, after the Resurrection (Acts 9:5).

Not only that; in St. Paul’s teaching, one can find a repeated theme of identifying very graphically and literally with Christ and His sufferings (see: 2 Cor 4:10; Phil 2:17; 3:10; 2 Tim 4:6; and above all, Colossians 1:24).

Matter conveys grace all over the place in Scripture:

• baptism confers regeneration (Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Pet 3:21; cf. Mk 16:16; Rom 6:3-4; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:5).
• Paul’s “handkerchiefs” healed the sick (Acts 19:12),
• as did even Peter’s shadow (Acts 5:15),
• and of course, Jesus’ garment (Mt 9:20-22)
• and saliva mixed with dirt (Jn 9:5 ff.); (Mk 8:22-25),
• as well as water from the pool of Siloam (Jn 9:7).
• Anointing with oil for healing is encouraged (Jas 5:14).
• We also observe in Scripture the laying on of hands for the purpose of ordination and commissioning (Acts 6:6; 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6)
• to facilitate the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17-19; 13:3; 19:6),
• and for healing (Mk 6:5; Lk 13:13; Acts 9:17-18).
• Even under the old covenant, a dead man was raised simply by coming in contact with the bones of the prophet Elisha (2 Kings 13:21) — which is also one of the direct evidences for the Catholic practice of the veneration of relics (itself an extension of the sacramental principle).

read more here
Yet, in spite of all this biblical evidence, the sacramental principle is rejected by some in favor of SPIRIT, by contrasting it with LAW, which denies BIBLICAL PHYSICALITY, a form of Gnosticism.

 

[marks]

.

1John1:8If we claim to be without sin,we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

It is not us or our focus that changes anything, but our relationship with Jesus.

Jesus became sin inorder to pay the penalty we deserved.
Our faith has nothing to do with us and everything to do with Jesus's love for us.

Hi Windmillcharge,

I agree with everything you say here. I'd like to elaborate on one point, my focus.

You are right, it's our relationship with God which IS our eternal life. We have eternal life because we know Him. And because we know Him, we have been freed from sin, and freed from death.

So why do we yet commit sins?

Because we fail to act according to the grace given us in Christ. I believe because we forget that this is our new creation, righteousness and holiness.

For me it comes in many ways, all the ways we are tested in the world.

1 Corinthains 10:13 "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

Temptation here, and most places, is from peirasmos, which means to put something to the test. I like to describe this word as "testing" if you are enduring in faith, and "tempting" if you are not.

Something, anything, all the normal things, come against us in life. Some contrary thing. Something that we feel like we want to avoid. Privation, pain, embarassment, whatever.

Or something comes in front of us, that we feel we want. We need! More food. More money. More pleasure. More recognition, or power, or whatever.

Our choice to make is that we either trust that God will carry us through this, or to not trust, not use that shield of faith.

In reminding myself of my relationship with God, returning my focus to His presence in my life and His love for me, this keeps me established in my faith, and that peirasmos, that testing, loses all appearance of power. Knowledge of God's presence and His love fills my mind overwhelming anything else.

Truly believing His personal involvement with me, and His overwhelming love for me.

"but will with the temptation provide a way out", that is, a "safe haven". The word here, "a way out", this speaks of "a safe haven from the sea", a safe harbor out of the storm. In that God provides "a way out" with each temptation, this is a particular way out.

Everytime we are tested by something, and, small and large, this is sometimes constantly, each temptation is there because God has something particular in mind where He wants us to end up.

So the sudden realization that my financial position is untenable, and I need a few thousand more, next week! is an opportunity to mature in my faith, to overcome the flesh and the world by faith. And perhaps the result is that I simply grow in faith as I see God work things out. Or perhaps God wants me to renew my relationship with my rich cousin Vinny who always offered help if I need it, but he's always so down on God, he's a real pill!

Maybe that's the next test, as Vinny needs to hear the Gospel, and God had to put the screws to me to get me over there.

God has something in mind, and if we endure in trust, we'll get there.

If we do not endure, if we do not trust that God will take care of this, then we begin to look to ourselves for an answer, and we begin to feel responsible for the outcome.

And that is where, I think, we go off course. While we may not yet be committing the act we wish to avoid, we've stopped overcoming by faith, and are now trying to reform the flesh in the power of the flesh.

Let's say . . . Something my wife does . . . anger rises up inside me . . . a feeling of the flesh, to be mastered by the new creation through faith. I know God keeps me in control of myself, and I know God fills me with love for my wife, and I just wait until that angry feeling passes, ignoring it, it's just a feeling of the flesh. And even as I continue to ignore these anger feelings they fade, and the love I've chosen is what I feel when these things happen. And God is cementing my outward behavior toward my wife in love regardless of how I feel at any given moment, as well as reforming my emotions according to my new nature.

Or, let's say . . . Something my wife does . . . anger rises up inside me . . . a feeling of the flesh, and I don't think about God, I think about my anger, I mustn't be angry! I focus my attention on not being angry, I think of maybe what she really meant, I grit my teeth and white my knuckles and bite my tongue. Or the feeling is just to strong and I say what I very quickly regret. But I end up wrestling with myself. And maybe I avoid a bad behavior, and maybe not.

But with faith, there is no struggle.

We can even struggle to have faith, trying to convince ourselves to believe more, better, trying to fill ourselves with insightful reasons to believe, with inspirational messages of how God overcame in someone else's life.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

When I am walking in the Spirit, I am one in purpose with Him.

Thank you for your clarity!

This is at the heart of, I think, why we fail to have the meeting of the minds one might expect. You are very sincere in your beliefs, and you have a very reasoned view, just the same, there is a foundational difference in the Gospel as you see it compared to as I see it.

My understanding from Scripture is that I am now unified with my Heavenly Father. That I am born of God, and share His nature. That I am adopted of God, and it is by His Spirit that I cry out, Father! By His Spirit . . . I cry . . .

My understanding of your view is that you seek to become unified with God in the future, and are determined to have the best mindset and actions possible to allow that to happen. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I never want to mis-state someone else's view, only to understand it.

I believe I am now unified with God, and through this unification, God works in me to bring my mindset and actions into agreement with His life in me.

Does that make sense?

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Does that cancel out Old Testament prophecies about Jesus' restorative PHYSICAL death? Do you believe Jesus is all SPIRIT, with no physical Body? Of course you don't.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ has FREED us from the law of sin and death indeed, but you are missing the point. Jesus didn't abolish ritual and physicality, He perfected them. Defending a non-physical spirituality is a big problem for you.

Ritual and “physicality” were not abolished by the coming of Christ. Quite the contrary: it was the Incarnation that fully established sacramentalism as a principle in the Christian religion. The latter may be defined as the belief that matter can convey grace. It’s really that simple, at bottom, or in essence. God uses matter both to help us live better lives (sanctification) and to ultimately save us (regeneration and justification), starting with baptism itself.

The atonement or redemption of Christ (His death on the cross for us) was not purely “spiritual".

” It was as physical (“sacramental,” if you will) as it could be, as well as spiritual. Protestants often piously refer to “the Blood of Jesus,” and rightly so (see Rev 5:9; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Heb 9:12; 1 Pet 1:2; 1 Jn 1:7; etc.). This is explicitly sacramental thinking.

Sacramentalism and the Bible

It was the very suffering of Jesus in the flesh, and the voluntary shedding of His own blood, which constituted the crucial, essential aspect of His work as our Redeemer and Savior. One can’t avoid this: “he was bruised for our iniquities” (Is 53:5).

So it is curious that many appear to possess a pronounced hostility to the sacramental belief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, seeing that it flows so straightforwardly from the Incarnation and the Crucifixion itself. This brings to mind an analogy to the Jewish and Muslim disdain for the Incarnation as an unthinkable (impossible?) task for God to undertake. They view the Incarnation in the same way a majority of Protestants regard the Eucharist.

For them, God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become a man (such a thought is blasphemous; unthinkable!). For many (not all) Protestants, God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become substantially, physically, sacramentally present under the outward forms of bread and wine. The dynamic or underlying premise is the same. If Christ could become man, He can surely will to be actually and truly present in what was formerly (and still looks like) bread and wine, once consecrated.

The New Testament is filled with incarnational and sacramental indications: instances of matter conveying grace.

• The Church is the “Body” of Christ (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22-23; 5:30),
• and marriage (including its physical aspects) is described as a direct parallel to Christ and the Church (Eph 5:22-33; esp. 29-32).
• Jesus even seems to literally equate Himself in some sense with the Church, saying He was “persecuted” by Paul, after the Resurrection (Acts 9:5).

Not only that; in St. Paul’s teaching, one can find a repeated theme of identifying very graphically and literally with Christ and His sufferings (see: 2 Cor 4:10; Phil 2:17; 3:10; 2 Tim 4:6; and above all, Colossians 1:24).

Matter conveys grace all over the place in Scripture:

• baptism confers regeneration (Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Pet 3:21; cf. Mk 16:16; Rom 6:3-4; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:5).
• Paul’s “handkerchiefs” healed the sick (Acts 19:12),
• as did even Peter’s shadow (Acts 5:15),
• and of course, Jesus’ garment (Mt 9:20-22)
• and saliva mixed with dirt (Jn 9:5 ff.); (Mk 8:22-25),
• as well as water from the pool of Siloam (Jn 9:7).
• Anointing with oil for healing is encouraged (Jas 5:14).
• We also observe in Scripture the laying on of hands for the purpose of ordination and commissioning (Acts 6:6; 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6)
• to facilitate the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17-19; 13:3; 19:6),
• and for healing (Mk 6:5; Lk 13:13; Acts 9:17-18).
• Even under the old covenant, a dead man was raised simply by coming in contact with the bones of the prophet Elisha (2 Kings 13:21) — which is also one of the direct evidences for the Catholic practice of the veneration of relics (itself an extension of the sacramental principle).

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Yet, in spite of all this biblical evidence, the sacramental principle is rejected by some in favor of SPIRIT, by contrasting it with LAW, which denies BIBLICAL PHYSICALITY, a form of Gnosticism.

Sorry, I thought you meant the New Covenant started with Mary; I didn't realize you were talking about outward sacraments. I was just correcting when the actual New Covenant started.

Let me ask you a question. Can you partake of the Eucharist if you have willful sin in your life, or must you first go to confession?

 

[amadeus]

Thank you for your clarity!

This is at the heart of, I think, why we fail to have the meeting of the minds one might expect. You are very sincere in your beliefs, and you have a very reasoned view, just the same, there is a foundational difference in the Gospel as you see it compared to as I see it.

My understanding from Scripture is that I am now unified with my Heavenly Father. That I am born of God, and share His nature. That I am adopted of God, and it is by His Spirit that I cry out, Father! By His Spirit . . . I cry . . .

My understanding of your view is that you seek to become unified with God in the future, and are determined to have the best mindset and actions possible to allow that to happen. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I never want to mis-state someone else's view, only to understand it.

I believe I am now unified with God, and through this unification, God works in me to bring my mindset and actions into agreement with His life in me.

Does that make sense?

Much love!

Words, men's words that is, will sometimes cause misunderstanding and even confusion when two people converse. God can help us to understand for He is certainly NOT the author of confusion.

You use the word, unified, and indicate that it pertains to you now. Having read your explanation I agree. As we are walking with God, we are growing. The oneness might indeed be called being 'unified' although I have not used the word in that way myself. At any point in the time a man has allotted to him, his number could be called... that is it could be the end of his time. He walks across the street and car hits him; or working on a dangerous job high up on a multi-story building, he slips and falls. However, I do not believe someone who has been faithfully walking with God and then missteps into sin will suddenly be killed without first being given space to repent. I see that in these words penned by the Apostle Paul:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." I Cor 10:13

Two ways I see of escaping the wages of sin on this: one is that God will hinder you somehow so that you do not commit the sin; two is that recognizing your frailty in this area He will extend your time, which is about up, just long enough for you to make it right with Him one more time. God is always more than fair as we may see in his discussion with Abraham about Sodom and Gomorrah:

"And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake." Gen 18:32

 

[marks]

Words, men's words that is, will sometimes cause misunderstanding and even confusion when two people converse. God can help us to understand for He is certainly NOT the author of confusion.

Amen!

I'm talking about this:

John 17
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

1 Corinthians 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid < . . .> 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Corinthains 12
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Like that.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

@marks
Even so, my friend!