The Holiness of God and the Holiness of Man

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epostle

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Sorry, I thought you meant the New Covenant started with Mary; I didn't realize you were talking about outward sacraments. I was just correcting when the actual New Covenant started.
Covenant theology is not an easy topic to put into a single post. The New Covenant came to fruition with a series of covenants. They are all connected, with the final covenant with Calvary. One does not cancel the other, there is no opposition. Try to think in Hebraic terms of "both/and", not "either/or".

“God as father is the essential foundation of our Catholic faith. Ever since the Protestant reformation, the covenant has been understood in the terms of a courtroom, God as judge, sinners as guilty defendants who were acquitted by Jesus Christ’s redeeming word. Now all that is true but I would suggest it has to be subordinated to a higher principle, that the covenant is a sacred family bond with God as the father. And a father requires more of a family member than a judge does of a defendant.

So we think of the covenant as a sacred family bond that binds God the father to us as his family. Sure God is a judge, because he’s a father so all of his judgments are fatherly. How do the covenants help us understand the Bible?

Think of this timeline, put Adam at one end and Jesus on the cross at the other end representing the OT culminating in the coming of Jesus Christ.

The first covenant God made was the Covenant with Adam.
The second covenant he made was the covenant with Noah.
The third was with Abraham.
The fourth
was made through Moses to Israel at Mt Sinai.
The fifth covenant God makes is with David establishing this divine kingdom of Israel.
And the last covenant is the new covenant that Jesus comes to inaugurate.

If you think of covenants in family terms you can see why God punctuates history with these covenants.

The first covenant he made with Adam was a marital covenant, the family form of the covenant.
The covenant with Noah was a household covenant between God, Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives encompassing a household.
The third covenant with Abraham was a tribal covenant. Abraham was addressed as a Chieftan with authority over many.
The covenant God made with Moses wasn’t with just one tribe but with twelve tribes. The twelve tribes became the national covenant.
The fifth covenant was the kingdom covenant with David, a national kingdom covenant that begins to do a new thing with the people of Israel and starts to include all the gentiles and nations.

And the last covenant was one Jesus established with his body and blood, an international covenant. For the first time, God has expanded his family to be a worldwide family. (The word for that in Greek is katholikos, a term for "whole world" in Romans 1:8)

The point I was clumsily trying to make with Mary is that Jesus didn't come to earth on a cross, it 'started' with an angel delivering the words of God to Mary. Her answer is Luke 1:38. Incarnation...Calvary. "both/and", not "either/or".

So pitting "LAW" against "SPIRIT" doesn't make sense because they are not covenants. They are words to help us understand what the Bible is for.
Let me ask you a question. Can you partake of the Eucharist if you have willful sin in your life, or must you first go to confession?
It depends. If I commit a serious sin and break my family bond with the Father, (spiritual death) then I must go to confession to have it restored, or it would be a sin to receive the Eucharist. Minor sins of thought, word, or deed don't cause death, but could if not checked. (James 5) Our culture trains people to think Confession is a torture chamber. It's not. It's like a shower for the soul, a beautiful sacrament that nurtures and strengthens our personal relationship with Jesus. Even the Pope goes to confession, I read somewhere he goes once a week.


there-is-no-catholic-god.jpg
 
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Windmillcharge

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Yes, everyone born on the face of the earth is born into sin. If you say you haven't been and vs. 8 and 10 imply, you are a liar, because everyone has sinned. But if you repent, are baptized into Jesus you are cleansed of all your sin, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit which keeps you from sinning willfully again. 1 John 3:9
Except the passage does not read that way, our own daily experience does not teach that.
 

Helen

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Hi Windmillcharge,

I believe light is not united to darkness, and that God changes us from darkness to light by rebirth from Him.

If "My" nature is sinful, how can we say that I am a partaker of God's nature, as in Peter? Or that I'm made in God's pattern, as in Ephesians?

Do we need "struggle" against temptation, or is a simply faith in Jesus' upholding power sufficient? I believe it is.

I think when we find ourselves in the stuggle against temptation we've already left the firm foundation of our faith.

Our wrestling is not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers. Have you considered that in saying "our wrestling is not against flesh and blood", this could include our own flesh? That God didn't mean for us to have this constant struggle to avoid sin?

Do you know that any temptation to any sin in my life is immediately and fully defeated in by bringing to my awareness two facts, one being, God is here with me, the other, God loves me.

As I focus myself on these truths, this is where I find victory. All the effort and agonizing over temptation, I find to be a work of my flesh, in attempting to reform my behavior in my own doing.

I'm trying to control the old man.

But when I focus on my relationship with my Father, I am free from that old man. My life is not in the old man. My life is in my Father. And it's my relationship with Him that both guides and empowers my actions.

There is no stain of sin, all sin is revealed to be of the old man, and I am the new man. So there is never anything to hinder my conscious enjoyment of my relationship with my Father at all times, except of course if I forget these things are true.

Then, I'm liable to start thinking I have to make things happen, keep things from happening, be in control.

What I really need to do is to always realize I'm the child, He's the Parent, just stay close to Him, and He'll take care of everything.

Your thoughts?

Much love!


Amen...the great difference between 'our position in Christ' and our 'every day experience' which is us choosing the right focus so our feet do not slip while we contemplate ourselves. The pilgrim Christian in John Bunyan's book... keep his eye on the City and was victorious in his journey...it was when he sidetracked that he fell into trouble ...

Vision and Who we continually behold is of vital importance..

As King David said -" I have set the Lord always before me , because He is at my right hand I shall not be moved." Ps 16



“For to speak the truth, there are but few that care thus to spend their time, but choose rather to be speaking of things to no profit.”
― John Bunyan- " The Pilgrims Progress. "

Blessings ...H
 
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Helen

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How this "dichotomy" different than the "double mindedness" mentioned the book of James? Is not everyone double-minded when they first come to the Lord?


My dad taught us that 'Double mindedness' was when a Christian tries to live in both covenants at the same time...


We cannot serve in the Melchizedek priesthood with a levitical mind.
 
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marks

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Amen...the great difference between 'our position in Christ' and our 'every day experience' which is us choosing the right focus so our feet do not slip while we contemplate ourselves.
See? What takes me 4 paragraphs, you do in one sentence!

Much love!
 
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marks

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My dad taught us that 'Double mindedness' was when a Christian tries to live in both covenants at the same time...

We cannot serve in the Melchizedek priesthood with a levitical mind.

That works for me! The Melchezedek priesthood by declaration, by virtue of an endless life, Levitical, by qualification, until death.

Much love!
 
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CharismaticLady

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Except the passage does not read that way, our own daily experience does not teach that.

What are you calling your daily experience? Are you dying to self everyday? Have you repented and been baptized in the Holy Spirit to walk in? Have you taken these steps: add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
 
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Helen

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That works for me! The Melchezedek priesthood by declaration, by virtue of an endless life, Levitical, by qualification, until death.

Much love!


Amen..well said...as good as my dad :)
 

amadeus

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My dad taught us that 'Double mindedness' was when a Christian tries to live in both covenants at the same time...


We cannot serve in the Melchizedek priesthood with a levitical mind.
I do agree and while both Jesus and Paul support the same view I do like how James puts it:

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?" James 4:1

For me it is the old man fighting against the new man born from above within us. He wants to regain his dominance in me. If we would never quench the Holy Spirit, the old man would never have a chance.
 

Windmillcharge

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What are you calling your daily experience? Are you dying to self everyday? Have you repented and been baptized in the Holy Spirit to walk in? Have you taken these steps: add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

No I am referring to the fact that the bible calls us ALL sinners, that 1John1 says that those who say they are with out sin are deciving themselves and far far worse, the truth is not in them.

Do you recognise this as a picture of your self or is the picture that you are a sinner.
 

CharismaticLady

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No I am referring to the fact that the bible calls us ALL sinners, that 1John1 says that those who say they are with out sin are deciving themselves and far far worse, the truth is not in them.

Do you recognise this as a picture of your self or is the picture that you are a sinner.

I recognize that I was a sinner and had no power to not sin BEFORE I was born again and cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). No one is born without sin, as is the meaning behind 1 John 1:8 and 10. Now I am a child of God, but no longer an unsaved, uncleansed, unempowered SINNER! If you still are, you might try repenting.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

1 John 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!
 

farouk

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I recognize that I was a sinner and had no power to not sin BEFORE I was born again and cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). No one is born without sin, as is the meaning behind 1 John 1:8 and 10. Now I am a child of God, but no longer an unsaved, uncleansed, unempowered SINNER! If you still are, you might try repenting.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

1 John 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!
John's Gospel and John's First Epistle are very searching...
 

Windmillcharge

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I recognize that I was a sinner and had no power to not sin BEFORE I was born again and cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). No one is born without sin, as is the meaning behind 1 John 1:8 and 10. Now I am a child of God, but no longer an unsaved, uncleansed, unempowered SINNER! If you still are, you might try repenting.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

1 John 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!

Free, free from what?
Certainly the penalty of being a sinner, but free from sin?
The passage in 1John1 strongly implies the opposite of what you claim.
As does Pauls passage in Romans about,'doing the evil I don't want to do.'
 

CharismaticLady

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Free, free from what?
Certainly the penalty of being a sinner, but free from sin?
The passage in 1John1 strongly implies the opposite of what you claim.
As does Pauls passage in Romans about,'doing the evil I don't want to do.'

Yes, free from SIN! Do you see any other topic in John 8:34-36?
 

farouk

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I recognize that I was a sinner and had no power to not sin BEFORE I was born again and cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). No one is born without sin, as is the meaning behind 1 John 1:8 and 10. Now I am a child of God, but no longer an unsaved, uncleansed, unempowered SINNER! If you still are, you might try repenting.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

1 John 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!
Great testimony! great verses there from 1 John...