The hypergrace controversy: Heresy, maturity, or somewhere in between?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
jiggyfly said:
All things concerning faith, fruit and life are the results of God working in and for us. Seems many teachings today make these things prerequisites and turning them into our works rather than God's.
I believe that our fleshly nature, which is always at war with the Spirit of God, makes us "feel" like we must work for righteousness so that we may take some pride in our accomplishment, but in this we "steal glory" from Jesus Christ to whom all glory is due. Its very easy for us to slip into a performance based theology as this is the natural thing for fallen men to do, but we need to remember: 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” Romans 4:5-8
For those who don't get what Paul is saying here "debt" is what we've sought forgiveness for as in "the Lord's prayer," (or disciples prayer if you prefer.)
 

Wormwood

Chaps
Apr 9, 2013
2,346
332
83
47
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Angelina said:
This is interesting...
I am not from the holiness movement as they do not believe in the triune God. Not all Pentecostals are holiness believers. In fact most are not... However, I would agree here with their understanding of the process given in the first instance.


I do not see it being work focused at all since Abraham himself acted upon his belief by faith...that God would raise his Son up somehow [when he was about to kill him] because he had already promised him future blessings through his line. Hebrews 11:17. We also act upon our faith by believing as Abraham did and receiving through salvation the promised Holy Spirit and [Ephesians 1:13] eternal life through Jesus our Lord and Savior. Abraham was not a perfect man but he believed God and walked and talked with him daily just as we do when we are walking by faith in Christ's word and talking with God daily with the aide of the Holy Spirit.

There seems to be a marked difference between a works based salvation, action by faith - salvation and the good works God has prepared for us to do beforehand. This is where I think some misunderstandings can be wrought .... :huh:
Angelina, I am not talking about Pentecostal holiness. I'm talking about the Holiness tradition started by John Wesley which includes groups like Methodists, Wesleyans, Nazarenes, and some Charismatic groups. The Holiness tradition does believe in the Trinity.

I think the difference with works is that some groups believe that works are not essential while the holiness groups would believe that works are essential. They would say that one cannot claim to have the Spirit of God indwelling them and it not be reflected in their actions/works. Holiness tradition would say that Christ died for the purpose of making us sanctified. If you are not in the process of being sanctified/made holy through increasing good works...then you must not be saved.
 

Angelina

Prayer Warrior
Staff member
Admin
Feb 4, 2011
37,034
14,947
113
New Zealand
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Angelina, I am not talking about Pentecostal holiness. I'm talking about the Holiness tradition started by John Wesley which includes groups like Methodists, Wesleyans, Nazarenes, and some Charismatic groups. The Holiness tradition does believe in the Trinity.
Oh!...I do not think I have heard of that tradition...and have always believed "Holiness" to be a natural part of our process of sanctification and desire to be more like God...although we may never reach perfection...we press on toward the upward call of God, in Christ...as Paul puts it. :huh:

I think the difference with works is that some groups believe that works are not essential while the holiness groups would believe that works are essential. They would say that one cannot claim to have the Spirit of God indwelling them and it not be reflected in their actions/works. Holiness tradition would say that Christ died for the purpose of making us sanctified. If you are not in the process of being sanctified/made holy through increasing good works...then you must not be saved.
The problem with humans, is that they tend to departmentalize the things of God to gain some form control over the work and process of the Holy Spirit in individual lives. The reality is though, salvation is not the same as sanctification ie: someone can get saved on their deathbed...would God send them away because they did not produce any works? The Spirit of God knows every heart and there is nothing hidden from his sight. Hebrews 4:13

Thanks the clarification WW

Be Blessed!!! :)
 

williemac

New Member
Apr 29, 2012
1,094
65
0
Canada
Angelina said:
The problem with humans, is that they tend to departmentalize the things of God to gain some form control over the work and process of the Holy Spirit in individual lives. The reality is though, salvation is not the same as sanctification ie: someone can get saved on their deathbed...would God send them away because they did not produce any works? The Spirit of God knows every heart and there is nothing hidden from his sight. Hebrews 4:13


Be Blessed!!! :)
Great point. The thief on the cross is a prime example of a "deathbed" conversion. This complies with what I have been sharing lately about humility. Grace is given to the humble. And specifically in relation to salvation, it takes the humble admission or acknowledgment (confession) of one's sin (Luke 18:10-14) and the humble admission that one needs a savior, and the humble acceptance of the free gift of life.
Consequently, the works that one does is for the giving or loss of rewards. However, these rewards and works do not play a part in one's salvation. If they did, then one would have possible cause for boasting. God has eliminated that possibility. He has removed any risk of pride coming into play. This is the factor that many I believe have overlooked in their promotion of works. We are indeed required to do good works, but they do not factor in when it comes to the gift of life. Neither does the abstaining from sin. One can even have pride over that. Therefore, life is a free gift. Faith is that which (humbly) accepts it as such.
Be Blessed -_-
 

day

New Member
Aug 2, 2012
169
10
0
Idaho, USA
williemac said:
That may be arguable in concept, but the problem is that 1John 1:9 is not taken that way as a rule. In fact, it is more important to understand the Holy Spirit's intention or the author's intention in what he is saying than to invent our own intention for what he is saying. If we look at that verse in light of the very next verse, we can see that our position with God is not in question. However, we have no explanation from John as to 1:9 meaning that there is a lessor kind of forgiveness or cleansing than that which is appropriated with redemption. Like I said, show me a supporting passage that indicates there is. I doubt you can. Therefore we are talking about a doctrine that is formed from just one verse. And formed from an opinion about that verse, no less.
John 13:5-10 Then he (Jesus) poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord do you was my feet?" Jesus answered him, "What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand" Peter said to him "You shall never wash my feet" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no share with me," Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!" Jesus said unto him "The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you".

I was taught that this conversation between Jesus and Peter was about forgiveness. That we are bathed (baptized) for the remission of sin (original and personal up to the time of baptism), but during life, because we are not at full stature of perfection, we pick up dust (personal sins) that require a confession and cleansing (feet), not the cleansing of the whole person again as at the beginning. To me, this fits very well with the verse from 1 John.
 

Angelina

Prayer Warrior
Staff member
Admin
Feb 4, 2011
37,034
14,947
113
New Zealand
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
williemac said:
Great point. The thief on the cross is a prime example of a "deathbed" conversion. This complies with what I have been sharing lately about humility. Grace is given to the humble. And specifically in relation to salvation, it takes the humble admission or acknowledgment (confession) of one's sin (Luke 18:10-14) and the humble admission that one needs a savior, and the humble acceptance of the free gift of life.
Consequently, the works that one does is for the giving or loss of rewards. However, these rewards and works do not play a part in one's salvation. If they did, then one would have possible cause for boasting. God has eliminated that possibility. He has removed any risk of pride coming into play. This is the factor that many I believe have overlooked in their promotion of works. We are indeed required to do good works, but they do not factor in when it comes to the gift of life. Neither does the abstaining from sin. One can even have pride over that. Therefore, life is a free gift. Faith is that which (humbly) accepts it as such.
Be Blessed -_-
Father God can pull out his sovereignty card any time he wants to..ie:
Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Blessings!!!
 

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
day said:
John 13:5-10 Then he (Jesus) poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord do you was my feet?" Jesus answered him, "What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand" Peter said to him "You shall never wash my feet" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no share with me," Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!" Jesus said unto him "The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you".

I was taught that this conversation between Jesus and Peter was about forgiveness. That we are bathed (baptized) for the remission of sin (original and personal up to the time of baptism), but during life, because we are not at full stature of perfection, we pick up dust (personal sins) that require a confession and cleansing (feet), not the cleansing of the whole person again as at the beginning. To me, this fits very well with the verse from 1 John.
The scripture says a bit more about baptism than what you're getting out of these verses. Jesus's actions were symbolic of a "greater truth" that we all need to be cleansed by Him. His action in washing Peter's feet wasn't a baptism, but certainly represented the baptism to come after His resurrection, that of the Holy Spirit. The washing of water doesn't cleanse from sin. The washing of the waters of the Word, however, does. If you ask why Jesus just washed the disciples feet, you have to consider that the Old Testament spoke of a "way" that would be opened up for men to walk in and Jesus identified Himself as that way. If you follow that line of study it will prove quite profitable.
 

Arnie Manitoba

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2011
2,650
137
63
72
Manitoba Canada
M.V.P

I feel like giving an unusual answer to your question .... actually I am avoiding the question completely

I think exact doctrine is very important , but sometimes I see Christians (me included) getting all caught up in the precise mechanics of salvation

Much like the Pharisees did at the time of Jesus. The Pharisees were actually very "by the book" scholars who debated all the finer points of the law (scriptures)

Jesus told them they were missing the whole point.

I wonder if Jesus would say the same to those two radio preachers ??

Just a thought.
 

williemac

New Member
Apr 29, 2012
1,094
65
0
Canada
day said:
John 13:5-10 Then he (Jesus) poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord do you was my feet?" Jesus answered him, "What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand" Peter said to him "You shall never wash my feet" Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no share with me," Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!" Jesus said unto him "The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you".

I was taught that this conversation between Jesus and Peter was about forgiveness. That we are bathed (baptized) for the remission of sin (original and personal up to the time of baptism), but during life, because we are not at full stature of perfection, we pick up dust (personal sins) that require a confession and cleansing (feet), not the cleansing of the whole person again as at the beginning. To me, this fits very well with the verse from 1 John.
I would not argue with this in principle, but I do not see this being taught in scripture, or even expanded on in scripture. I think that if it were that important that we would not be in this conversation, for it would be more obvious than a mere interpretation of one verse. The washing of the disciples feet might well have been taken as being about forgiveness from God were it not for the fact that Jesus did it as an example for His disciples to follow (John 15:14,15). Where in 1John 1:9 do we find anything resembling our washing one another's feet?
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

Not So Advanced Member
Jan 6, 2012
1,727
62
48
williemac said:
I would not argue with this in principle, but I do not see this being taught in scripture, or even expanded on in scripture. I think that if it were that important that we would not be in this conversation, for it would be more obvious than a mere interpretation of one verse. The washing of the disciples feet might well have been taken as being about forgiveness from God were it not for the fact that Jesus did it as an example for His disciples to follow (John 15:14,15). Where in 1John 1:9 do we find anything resembling our washing one another's feet?
Look to the bronze laver in the tabernacle in which the priests had to continually wash themselves so they wouldn't die because of their defilement from handling the sacrifices and walking on the earth barefoot.

Look to Moses who was instructed by GOD to remove his sandals (which were symbolically defiled by contacting the earth) because he was standing on holy ground.

Look to Joshua, who was also instructed to remove his sandals because he was standing on holy ground.
 

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Arnie Manitoba said:
M.V.P

I feel like giving an unusual answer to your question .... actually I am avoiding the question completely

I think exact doctrine is very important , but sometimes I see Christians (me included) getting all caught up in the precise mechanics of salvation

Much like the Pharisees did at the time of Jesus. The Pharisees were actually very "by the book" scholars who debated all the finer points of the law (scriptures)

Jesus told them they were missing the whole point.

I wonder if Jesus would say the same to those two radio preachers ??

Just a thought.
Hi Arnie,
Sound doctrine is essential, exact doctrine however would appear to be problematic given the human tendency to take scripture out of context and apply it in a manner that gives us the most personal benefit. There are hints in the new testament epistles that suggest that at least some of the authors were hesitant to commit anything to writing because their words were being twisted by unstable minds to give meanings that were unintended. A personal face to face(s) teaching method seemed preferable, in that language is understood not simply by the words used, but by voice inflection as well (and non verbal signaling or body language.) We have some punctuation which allows us to distinguish a question from a statement or an exclamation, but without inflection and a given context we can't distinguish between a rhetorical question, a real question, or sarcasm.
It is my own belief that the Old Testament scripture was given to reveal the person of Jesus Christ and He testified as much to the scribes and Pharisees. The new testament scripture tends to be more instructional in nature, but still has as it's primary purpose a revelation of the person of Jesus Christ and His purposes in our redemption. Because of this belief I define sound doctrine as that which glorifies God in the person of His Son and the scripture tells us that He alone is worthy of all glory (which is not meant to exclude the Father or the Holy Spirit as these three are One). What we see in scripture is the Son glorifying the Father by magnifying His word and proving it through many signs and wonders. We see the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself upon the Son visibly during Jesus' ministry "in the flesh" and continuing to glorify Him through the church as manifested in our faith. We also see the Father first approving the Son, audibly during his ministry "in the flesh" and then in His glorification and resurrection.
You may teach biblical doctrine with regard to the wisdom literature, or the legalism of the law given through Moses, the poetry of the psalms, etc., but if this doctrine isn't exalting the person of Jesus Christ and drawing us near to God through His Spirit, how could you call it sound? The teachers teaching God's grace, whether their doctrine is entirely correct or not, are giving God the glory that He is due in attributing salvation entirely to Him. There is a reason that the elders in the book of the Revelation cast their crowns as the feet of Jesus. We are told quite plainly in scripture that we have nothing that we haven't been given (so why boast as if we hadn't received it as such.) I could be wrong, but I anticipate seeing Jesus reward those two teachers. I also anticipate seeing Jesus reward the teacher who accused them of heresy in an underhanded sort of way, though not for that action, but rather through the working of faith in his own life and ministry. We very commonly sin against one another when our pride is offended by another person's position, but every sin is forgiven in Jesus Christ, including pride, envy, wrath, malice, etc. If we didn't remain guilty of such things we wouldn't have the exhortation to put them away as unbecoming of a son of God.
Our real concern shouldn't be whether or not we're forgiven as this is the promise of God. No, the only real concern we should have is whether or not we are self deceived, the human heart being deceitfully wicked. The most serious exhortation to us in the New Testament is to examine ourselves as to whether or not we are in the faith. What we perceive as belief can be as shallow as an emotional response to good news, but a faith that saves is a faith that produces good fruit. Again, the point being that it isn't the fruit that saves, but salvation that gives rise to the good fruit.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Michael V Pardo said:
I listen to a local "christian" radio station that carries a wide variety of "christian" teaching. Recently they have shuffled program time slots around, did some deletions and additions, and I laud them for pushing their infomercials to less "prime time" slots. One new show, a call in one, features teachings on the basic doctrines of grace. The show's hosts are teachers that teach from the perspective that salvation is 100% God's work (and 0 % our own.) This is biblical and understood through the writings of the Apostle Paul.

On another show, also a call in one, that airs about two hours earlier, a certain teacher with some letters associated with his name, a doctorate of some sort, went on a week's vacation, but took the opportunuty to create some pre-recorded shows (eliminating the possibility of immediate rebuttal), and the topic was "hypergrace" or the "heretical" notion that all of our sin, past present and future, was "forgiven" through the redemptive price of God's own blood, through the crucifixion of His Son, even our Lord Jesus called the Christ, blessed forever. Amen

While this Dr. wasn't about to use the names of the teachers from the other show, he nearly quoted their teaching with respect to some passages from 1st John, and had no problem identifying it with "known heresy." I wouldn't call this a bold move as it seemed staged and somewhat cowardly. You could hear some indignation in his voice, but it seemed to be indignation at the rejection of his scholarship, rather than a genuine concern over doctrine. I am concerned for this man, first because he seems quite sincere in his desire to advance the kingdom of God, and second because he would rather accuse some teachers of heresy rather than confront them in public and open debate (perhaps he desires to do so, and the other parties refuse out of a desire for peace within the body of Christ. Only these parties and God know the reason.)

I am inclined to believe that these two teachers I've mentioned first have the more "mature" understanding of the doctrines of grace, though I certainly could be mistaken. If a man were able to come to a perfect understanding of scripture through "proper" exegeses and scholarly effort, it's unlikely that the Pharisees of Jesus' first appearing "in skin" so to speak, would have condemned Him. A "carnally minded" reading of scripture will never reveal all those things which the Spirit of grace has hidden for those who know Him, though what is explicitly stated of doctrine remains explicitly stated.

Now, the center of the "Dr.'s" attack on these "heretics" was about their interpretation of these verses:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10


The first two teachers explain this verse in context, contending that it is meant for unbelievers who were a part of the congregation(s) being addressed and effectively a "gospel" message, which then goes on to commend those who have already received the gospel.

That Dr., whoever he is, is correct. The 1 John 1 Scripture is not all that difficult to understand that it's written to BELIEVERS on Christ Jesus...

I Jn 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:


HOW can one have fellowship with Christ and NOT be a believer on Him? This is very... simple.

7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The idea of walking by The Spirit is also an idea Apostle Paul taught in Galatians. That walk isn't for the unbeieving, it's for believers on Christ Jesus.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


HOW in the world can an unbeliever even CONFESS their sins in order to get forgiveness unless they ask The LORD and BELIEVE FIRST?

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
(KJV)


This is so... easy, all one need do is put theirself in the position of an unbeliever and think, would a non-believer ask for those things??? No, of course not!


Oh how many love... to use that word "context" without even READING the Scripture with understanding as written first!

The heresey indeed is with the Hyper-Grace theology of men's traditions, it is false. That's what the 1 John 1 Chapter reveals. It reveals that as a believer on Christ Jesus we still... have need to repent of sins we may commit after... having believed on Him and been baptized.
 

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
veteran said:
That Dr., whoever he is, is correct. The 1 John 1 Scripture is not all that difficult to understand that it's written to BELIEVERS on Christ Jesus...

I Jn 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:


HOW can one have fellowship with Christ and NOT be a believer on Him? This is very... simple.

7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The idea of walking by The Spirit is also an idea Apostle Paul taught in Galatians. That walk isn't for the unbeieving, it's for believers on Christ Jesus.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


HOW in the world can an unbeliever even CONFESS their sins in order to get forgiveness unless they ask The LORD and BELIEVE FIRST?

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
(KJV)


This is so... easy, all one need do is put theirself in the position of an unbeliever and think, would a non-believer ask for those things??? No, of course not!


Oh how many love... to use that word "context" without even READING the Scripture with understanding as written first!

The heresey indeed is with the Hyper-Grace theology of men's traditions, it is false. That's what the 1 John 1 Chapter reveals. It reveals that as a believer on Christ Jesus we still... have need to repent of sins we may commit after... having believed on Him and been baptized.
Hi Veteran,
While I'm inclined to agree with you with respect to the notion that John was writing to believers, I'm also inclined to believe that those who receive the Spirit of the Living God are saved, were saved, and will be saved. People keep making the argument that a "believer" can loose his salvation by walking away from God, but this denies what the scripture says, starting with the Old testament verse "God alone is our savior." Now, while it's true that we have choice in every decision that we make, and we can choose to be disobedient to God, will He deny His eternal and unchanging character, and deny Himself, given that His Spirit takes up residence in those to whom He has given it? I want to qualify my last statement with this, not every "believer" is necessarily born again and you must be born again to have His Spirit within you; one goes with the other. Some believe in a Jesus who they don't believe to be the Son of God, nor equal with God in nature, nor even risen from the dead, and such "believers" aren't genuine as such.
The scriptures, both Old and New Testament, gives us a picture of God as our loving Father who alone is good and will do what is necessary to discipline His sons, to correct them and lead them in the way that they should go. Ideally, we should be willing to obey His voice all the time and therefore avoid sinning, but having a will of our own, and one that sometimes differs in it's desire from that of our heavenly Father, we are prone to wander, to leave the One we love. For most of us sin remains a problem. God's plan of salvation is through a covenant, the new covenant initiated in His blood. This isn't a doctrine of man, but was foretold in the Old Testament and met in the New and through the blood of our Savior. What sacrifice do you make to be a participant in that New Covenant?
If we make any sacrifice at all to the Lord, it is only our submission to His will, and who is in perfect submission? Really, I'd like to know and would be pleased to meet him, but I do know the One who walked in perfect submission and paid the full, not some partial, price of our redemption and with His own precious blood.
I agree, that we do indeed make wrong choices and go our own way at times, rather than be in perfect agreement with our Father, especially in those seasons when we suffer loss and are grieved by it, not seeing any "good purpose" in it. Consider Job, whose losses were more than he could bear, yet he did not sin and raise a condemning voice against his Lord. In his grief he certainly was not centered in God's will, but instead sought to justify himself before his "friends" and before God. The Lord spoke to him directly and put him straight, set him back on the path, so to speak, bringing him to repentance, and this was a man from long before the New Covenant promises and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
I wrote a brief note to these two teachers, because they mocked at the notion of a Christian seeking God, as God is already there within them, but I pointed out this simple fact: Our salvation is a promise by covenant that God will not break and therefore not of our volition (once having received Him), however, seeking God remains an act of the will. Since the scripture says that no one seeks God, but rather that He seeks us out, I would say that it is impossible to seek God unless you already have His Spirit within you. In this light, confessing your sin to God as in John's epistle, is not so much an act of repentance, but an act of reconciliation, as a child who admits that he's done wrong to his father so that his father may freely forgive. What good father would openly forgive his child some wrong doing if the child refused to admit that what it had done was wrong? This is the sort of thing which brings on what I like to call "the wood shed" experience, or the discipline of a good and loving father. Yet such a father, even an imperfect human one, doesn't have the goal of harming his child, but of restoring his child to a place of trust and loving fellowship. This being said, our salvation remains dependent upon the Lord, because the scripture clearly tells us: 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
I also like the following verse for the benefit of our heretic hunters: Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. Roman's 14:3-5
One man is confident in his relationship with God and another is not, which one would you be more inclined to pay attention to? God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of adoption, and that sir, is an awesome thing.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Michael V Pardo said:
Hi Veteran,
While I'm inclined to agree with you with respect to the notion that John was writing to believers, I'm also inclined to believe that those who receive the Spirit of the Living God are saved, were saved, and will be saved.
Wait a minute Michael, no one... has been 'saved' just yet. That only happens when Christ Jesus returns. Until then, while we are alive on this earth, we are to walk by The Spirit and wait on Him and His Promise of Salvation, praying that we may be found worthy to stand in His Presence. As of right now, none of us alive have gained that, but His Apostles who were with Him have, since He promised them already they would reign over the 12 tribes of Israel. We are to work out our salvation with trembling and fear, like Apostle Paul said (Philppians 2:12).
Michael V Pardo said:
People keep making the argument that a "believer" can loose his salvation by walking away from God, but this denies what the scripture says, starting with the Old testament verse "God alone is our savior." Now, while it's true that we have choice in every decision that we make, and we can choose to be disobedient to God, will He deny His eternal and unchanging character, and deny Himself, given that His Spirit takes up residence in those to whom He has given it? I want to qualify my last statement with this, not every "believer" is necessarily born again and you must be born again to have His Spirit within you; one goes with the other. Some believe in a Jesus who they don't believe to be the Son of God, nor equal with God in nature, nor even risen from the dead, and such "believers" aren't genuine as such.
To say that you know you are already saved by our Lord Jesus puts yourself in His Judgment Seat instead, for only He has that authority and power. We know He is a loving and forgiving God, and the best we can hope for is that He will forgive us our sins and instead weigh what's in our heart. And there's the rub. What is in the heart is where it's at.

As for those who claim to believe on Jesus but refuse to recognize Him as God The Saviour, those have the spirit of antichrist. What have we to do with those? Nothing, lest they repent and come to the Truth.
Michael V Pardo said:
The scriptures, both Old and New Testament, gives us a picture of God as our loving Father who alone is good and will do what is necessary to discipline His sons, to correct them and lead them in the way that they should go. Ideally, we should be willing to obey His voice all the time and therefore avoid sinning, but having a will of our own, and one that sometimes differs in it's desire from that of our heavenly Father, we are prone to wander, to leave the One we love. For most of us sin remains a problem. God's plan of salvation is through a covenant, the new covenant initiated in His blood. This isn't a doctrine of man, but was foretold in the Old Testament and met in the New and through the blood of our Savior. What sacrifice do you make to be a participant in that New Covenant?
If you could ever... be free from sin in this life, then you would no longer need our Lord Jesus Christ and His Blood shed upon the cross.
Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(KJV)


For that reason, we all were concluded under sin. Sin remains a problem for ALL of us, not just some. In Romans 6 Apostle Paul is admonishing us to change our lives so as to no longer be the servants of sin. But WHO can be perfect in that? None but our Lord Jesus Christ. If we could be perfect we wouldn't need Him any longer. It's as simple as that. And that's why this Hyper-Grace philosophy comes straight from the devil, for he well knows the state we are all in and it's his job to tempt us every step of the way.

But per the 1 John 1 Scripture, we have forgiveness IF we repent to Christ, and He cleanses us of sin. It's part of a 'walk', and that walk is by no means over until we die, or until Christ returns. Through continued repentance as needed, and making a change, is how we are 'counted' perfect by Him, though we can never be perfect without sin in this flesh. This matter is part of our continuing Faith on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ.

So when one assumes they no longer have sin, after having believed on Christ Jesus and baptized in His Name, and do not see the need for later repentance of sin, then just what state of mind is that? It's the same thing as saying, "Jesus, thank You for saving me, now I no longer need forgiveness anymore." Truth is, we will always need future forgiveness in this life, because we cannot do our own salvation. Like He said, without Him we can do nothing (John 15:5).

So the reason why I know the Hyper-Grace movement is not of God is because it presents to the believer the idea of going their own way, thinking they can no longer sin since being 'saved'. It's actually a sly method to trick brethren into cutting themselves off from the walk with our Lord Jesus Christ. I've seen enough cases to know the fallen away condition it can create.
 

williemac

New Member
Apr 29, 2012
1,094
65
0
Canada
veteran said:
Wait a minute Michael, no one... has been 'saved' just yet. That only happens when Christ Jesus returns. Until then, while we are alive on this earth, we are to walk by The Spirit and wait on Him and His Promise of Salvation, praying that we may be found worthy to stand in His Presence. As of right now, none of us alive have gained that, but His Apostles who were with Him have, since He promised them already they would reign over the 12 tribes of Israel. We are to work out our salvation with trembling and fear, like Apostle Paul said (Philppians 2:12).


To say that you know you are already saved by our Lord Jesus puts yourself in His Judgment Seat instead, for only He has that authority and power. We know He is a loving and forgiving God, and the best we can hope for is that He will forgive us our sins and instead weigh what's in our heart. And there's the rub. What is in the heart is where it's at.

As for those who claim to believe on Jesus but refuse to recognize Him as God The Saviour, those have the spirit of antichrist. What have we to do with those? Nothing, lest they repent and come to the Truth.
Wait a minute yourself. This is just a mere matter of semantics. The salvation of our bodies is future. BUT...We can indeed make the claim that we have eternal life. (John5:24) (1John 5:11). We can indeed make the claim that we have His Spirit, Who has been given as a deposit and a guarantee of our inheritance. We can also make the claim that we are a new creation (2Cor.5:17). And because we are in Christ, joint heirs with Him, positionally seated with Him in heavenly places, we also know that we presently have forgiveness of sin, both now and in the future. If we are merely hoping for forgiveness of sin (wishing but not knowing for sure), then we have not yet believed the truth. We are either partakers of Christ now or we are not. And if now, we also have Him as an advocate with the Father (1John 2:1)
 

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
veteran said:
Wait a minute Michael, no one... has been 'saved' just yet. That only happens when Christ Jesus returns. Until then, while we are alive on this earth, we are to walk by The Spirit and wait on Him and His Promise of Salvation, praying that we may be found worthy to stand in His Presence. As of right now, none of us alive have gained that, but His Apostles who were with Him have, since He promised them already they would reign over the 12 tribes of Israel. We are to work out our salvation with trembling and fear, like Apostle Paul said (Philppians 2:12).


To say that you know you are already saved by our Lord Jesus puts yourself in His Judgment Seat instead, for only He has that authority and power. We know He is a loving and forgiving God, and the best we can hope for is that He will forgive us our sins and instead weigh what's in our heart. And there's the rub. What is in the heart is where it's at.

As for those who claim to believe on Jesus but refuse to recognize Him as God The Saviour, those have the spirit of antichrist. What have we to do with those? Nothing, lest they repent and come to the Truth.


If you could ever... be free from sin in this life, then you would no longer need our Lord Jesus Christ and His Blood shed upon the cross.
Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(KJV)


For that reason, we all were concluded under sin. Sin remains a problem for ALL of us, not just some. In Romans 6 Apostle Paul is admonishing us to change our lives so as to no longer be the servants of sin. But WHO can be perfect in that? None but our Lord Jesus Christ. If we could be perfect we wouldn't need Him any longer. It's as simple as that. And that's why this Hyper-Grace philosophy comes straight from the devil, for he well knows the state we are all in and it's his job to tempt us every step of the way.

But per the 1 John 1 Scripture, we have forgiveness IF we repent to Christ, and He cleanses us of sin. It's part of a 'walk', and that walk is by no means over until we die, or until Christ returns. Through continued repentance as needed, and making a change, is how we are 'counted' perfect by Him, though we can never be perfect without sin in this flesh. This matter is part of our continuing Faith on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ.

So when one assumes they no longer have sin, after having believed on Christ Jesus and baptized in His Name, and do not see the need for later repentance of sin, then just what state of mind is that? It's the same thing as saying, "Jesus, thank You for saving me, now I no longer need forgiveness anymore." Truth is, we will always need future forgiveness in this life, because we cannot do our own salvation. Like He said, without Him we can do nothing (John 15:5).

So the reason why I know the Hyper-Grace movement is not of God is because it presents to the believer the idea of going their own way, thinking they can no longer sin since being 'saved'. It's actually a sly method to trick brethren into cutting themselves off from the walk with our Lord Jesus Christ. I've seen enough cases to know the fallen away condition it can create.
Hi Veteran,
I appreciate your reasoning, but this is similar to the arguments that Paul and some of the other apostles faced when teaching God's grace. Sinful men will always take the doctrine of grace to extremes and make it an excuse to sin. The Apostle Paul was himself accused to using his doctrine to hide his personal sin, but he stood firmly upon the gospel of God's grace. The scripture plainly says: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30
I'm not making an argument for taking license with God's grace, but rather, that the scripture teaches us that God disciplines His own as sons and daughters, and that if you receive no discipline, then you are probably not a legitimate heir.
But let's put it another more personal way. Would you ever choose to turn away from God, knowing who He is? If not, then why not?
I'm not really sure what is meant by hyper-grace. The two teachers that I listen to say that as children of God (having received His Spirit by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ) it's natural for us to seek to do His will and that He wants us to abide in His love. This doesn't sound like anything but plain old fashioned grace, not "hyper-grace."
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hyper grace? Sounds like an oxymoron to me.......

IMO, we have such a narrow view of God, we cannot even begin to fathom His grace.
 

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
williemac said:
Wait a minute yourself. This is just a mere matter of semantics. The salvation of our bodies is future. BUT...We can indeed make the claim that we have eternal life. (John5:24) (1John 5:11). We can indeed make the claim that we have His Spirit, Who has been given as a deposit and a guarantee of our inheritance. We can also make the claim that we are a new creation (2Cor.5:17). And because we are in Christ, joint heirs with Him, positionally seated with Him in heavenly places, we also know that we presently have forgiveness of sin, both now and in the future. If we are merely hoping for forgiveness of sin (wishing but not knowing for sure), then we have not yet believed the truth. We are either partakers of Christ now or we are not. And if now, we also have Him as an advocate with the Father (1John 2:1)
Thank you for a brief, but strong argument.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Michael V Pardo said:
Hi Veteran,
I appreciate your reasoning, but this is similar to the arguments that Paul and some of the other apostles faced when teaching God's grace. Sinful men will always take the doctrine of grace to extremes and make it an excuse to sin. The Apostle Paul was himself accused to using his doctrine to hide his personal sin, but he stood firmly upon the gospel of God's grace. The scripture plainly says: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30
I'm not making an argument for taking license with God's grace, but rather, that the scripture teaches us that God disciplines His own as sons and daughters, and that if you receive no discipline, then you are probably not a legitimate heir.
But let's put it another more personal way. Would you ever choose to turn away from God, knowing who He is? If not, then why not?
I'm not really sure what is meant by hyper-grace. The two teachers that I listen to say that as children of God (having received His Spirit by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ) it's natural for us to seek to do His will and that He wants us to abide in His love. This doesn't sound like anything but plain old fashioned grace, not "hyper-grace."
Well, since you quoted that specific Scripture from Paul, just to let you know, there's more in that than what you may be aware. Remember how our Lord Jesus said many are called, but few are chosen? The idea is about the difference between His very elect which He chose (like Paul) vs. those who come to believe on Him through their word, i.e., called only (see John 17).

For God's chosen, we see His stepping in their lives directly at times, to get them back into His Will (like Paul). He does not do that for all believers unless they ask first. For His chosen elect, He does it even against their own will. This is why they have a much stronger hand over them in their lives, while those called only do not still subject to their own fallen wills. And we can clearly see evidence of this today with believers that fall away, and it will be much worse when the false messiah gets here.
 

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
veteran said:
Well, since you quoted that specific Scripture from Paul, just to let you know, there's more in that than what you may be aware. Remember how our Lord Jesus said many are called, but few are chosen? The idea is about the difference between His very elect which He chose (like Paul) vs. those who come to believe on Him through their word, i.e., called only (see John 17).

For God's chosen, we see His stepping in their lives directly at times, to get them back into His Will (like Paul). He does not do that for all believers unless they ask first. For His chosen elect, He does it even against their own will. This is why they have a much stronger hand over them in their lives, while those called only do not still subject to their own fallen wills. And we can clearly see evidence of this today with believers that fall away, and it will be much worse when the false messiah gets here.
I'm not convinced that any true "believers" fall away. Some folks have an intellectual understanding of Christian doctrine that they've received through study or through someone else's teaching, attend church regularly, signed a card, prayed a prayer, etc., but never really saw through to their own sinful condition and actually received the gospel. If you were to take a poll on the street and ask people first if they were "Christian" and then asked why to those who made that claim, you might be surprised at how many haven't ever heard the gospel, or saw themselves as sinners needing to be saved.
Jesus taught that some would respond to the gospel with Joy, but then fall away, having no root within themselves: 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. Mark 4:16-17 These ones that Jesus refers to have an emotional response to the gospel, but it isn't clear from what Jesus said as to whether or not their faith was genuine. The fact that tribulation and persecution cause them to stumble suggests that it was never genuine in the first place. The phrase "they have no root in themselves" also suggests that the word that they heard didn't "germinate" or come to life within the "soil" of their hearts. Saving faith isn't a simple emotional response, but a gift which comes by the indwelling of the Spirit of God, Who gives life to the seed of His word. Paul goes into a similar analogy when writing to the Corinthians: 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 1 Corinthians 3:6-7
If you could speak to the whole planet at once, you could preach the gospel accurately and truthfully to everyone, but only the Holy Spirit could make your words alive in the hearts of those who heard it. I could come along and preach more scripture in support of that good news in the hope of "feeding" those in need of God's word that had received the gospel, but only the Holy Spirit could convince those that heard me that the scripture I was preaching was indeed true and apply it to their hearts. Salvation is all of God and none of ourselves, but its a joy to us to be used by Him in spreading His word and guiding those whom He's chosen to receive it toward growth in Him. We have fellowship with Him in our service and enter into His joy as workers in His harvest.



The scripture very plainly teaches us that those whom receive the Spirit of Adoption, who is the Holy Spirit, are treated as sons (and daughters), and if God doesn't discipline someone as a son or daughter then that person must be perfect or not be His: And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.” 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? Hebrews 12:5-7