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The hypergrace controversy: Heresy, maturity, or somewhere in between?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by michaelvpardo, Aug 17, 2013.

  1. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    So, you think that the scripture is nutty? Peter confessed Jesus Christ as the messiah the Holy one of God by the power of the Holy Spirit before He received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and you think that that's nutty?
    16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:16-17 (This was spoken to Jesus' Apostles and closest disciples on the night that He was betrayed. The Holy Spirit was not given to indwell anyone permanently until Jesus was crucified and rose again from the dead. Do you really think that this is nutty? Have you even read the scriptures?
     
  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    It's your exposition that's nutty, not Holy Writ.

    It's obvious that when you instead to heed a false doctrine of men that you prefer their word over God's Word, including how our Lord Jesus showed us to pray with the example He gave His disciples when they asked.

    And then you tell me to study The Gospel, when Jesus showing us how... to pray is part of The Gospel??? Now that is a very... nutty statement on your part. Since your doctrine was proven wrong by my example of that, you should have just kept silent instead of looking for some smart-ellic comeback; that way you would not have shown your Biblical ignorance.
     
  3. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    At least my exposition is literate.
     
  4. horsecamp

    horsecamp New Member

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    i dont have to think about it ------------i know Jesus loves both of you guys. may i make a suggestion in stead of debating what both of you feel so strongly about .. why don't you guys post an apology of what you both believe .. this way people can read your apologys and compare them with scripture ..
    and not be distracted by your style of debating .. And this way you wont end up feeling like you want to kill each other

    but if in the end if you decide to kill each other--- do it pleasantly please.. after all this is a christian forum :D
     
  5. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Already gave enough Scripture evidence against this controversy in my previous posts. You might want to go back and read them.

    In my latter post, I quoted the Luke 11 Scripture of our Lord Jesus showing His disciples, and us, how to pray, which He included asking forgiveness of sins. Michael denied that that was meant for Christians. And that's why I said he would rather keep to a doctrine of man making God's Word of no effect instead of heeding our Lord in His Word. And that's still where I stand.
     
  6. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    I started this particular thread, so my understanding has been given primarily in the 1st post, but continues with supporting scripture on through the thread. I thought I was being pretty clear, but evidently some folks don't understand what I've said, or object to the notion that God is pleased with us knowing and speaking with Him, rather than repeating memorized prayers and verses like some well trained Cockatoo. Perhaps some are just offended at the idea of having a Father/son relationship with God rather than groveling about over sin that was already forgiven at the cross. I don't really know what the problem is, except that sound doctrine is somehow "nutty." All things considered, I'd rather know God and be considered a fool, than profess Him and carry on about everything else under the sun (or beneath the earth, etc.) :blink:
    I was going back through the posts for a bit and noticed that Veteran was making an argument about unbelievers not being saved, and nowhere in this post was such a thing mentioned by anyone but him. The teachers that appear to have been accused of some "hyper-grace" heresy were always referring to those who have believed Jesus Christ and entered into the New Covenant of His blood. An understanding of that covenant reveals that salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is entirely the work of God and by His grace and election. If you can receive that, then clearly, confessing sin once you've received the Spirit of adoption is about restoring relationship to your Father, not about ensuring your salvation. We have the promise of our Lord that He will never leave or forsake us, so we don't lose our salvation on a daily basis through some sin and then regain it by confession. I'd call the notion pretty absurd, but the church that I was "born into" and one of the largest churches on the planet, teaches something along those lines (I know members of that denomination that say it's impossible to know that you've been saved until after you die. Good luck with that.)
     
  7. IBeMe

    IBeMe New Member

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    --------------------
    Michael V Pardo:
    I'm convinced that God has forgiven us of all sin if we have indeed received Him, but confessing our sinful actions to Him will certainly help us to "unburden" our conscience and be reassured of His love for us, in the confidence that He has already forgiven us in our adoption as sons.
    --------------------

    We're forgiven PAST sins, when we ask Jesus into our heart.

    Rom 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past..."

    We're responsible for everything we do after that.

    Heb 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

    Paul says you've "done despite unto the Spirit of grace", if you sin wilfully after coming to know the Lord.

    Jesus says; "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

    There's a lot of promise scriptures in the Bible, but they come with a price tag.

    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

    It should come as no surprise that God actually expects us to do what He commands us to do.

    We're going to ignore the commandments of God? ... How's that going to work out?

    "Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver."
     
  8. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    I've said as much in this thread, but thanks for agreeing.
     
  9. Dodo_David

    Dodo_David Melmacian in human guise

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    Bravo, Michael! Well said.
     
  10. IBeMe

    IBeMe New Member

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    Michael V Pardo{If you can receive that, then clearly, confessing sin once you've received the Spirit of adoption is about restoring relationship to your Father, not about ensuring your salvation.}

    That's clearly false.

    What? Jesus died so that we could sin?

    "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

    "But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

    If we don't overcome sin, our name will be blotted out of the book of life.

    "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

    Jesus came and died to give us the POWER to keep the commandments of God.

    "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

    God's righteousness didn't change (impossible for God to change), he changed us; made us born-again-of-the-Spirit new creatures in Christ Jesus with the POWER to deny the flesh and follow the Spirit.

    "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

    Jesus has prepared a place for His people, not Satan's.


    "He that committeth sin is of the devil..."
     
  11. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for putting me in the company of the great Apostle Paul, who was accused of preaching the exact same things and for exactly the same reasons. I can always use a little more reward from our Savior.

    I don't mean to be ungracious to IBeMe, so I'll offer a brief argument from scripture and all of it good news:

    [SIZE=medium]First, If you believe that Jesus is the messiah, the Son of the living God, this is something which was none of your doing, but was something revealed to you by God Himself:[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]15. He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?'' [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]16. And Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'' [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]17. Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]18. "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:15-18[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]Second, If you’ve received His Holy Spirit through faith in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ, then this was through nothing that you did:[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]3. Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'' [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]4. Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?'' [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]5. Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]6. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7. "Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born again.' [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]8. "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.'' John 3:3-8[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]Third, If you have received His Spirit, then you have become a son or daughter of the living God through adoption:[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]4. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium] 15. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father.'' [/SIZE][SIZE=medium] 16. The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium] 17. and if children, then heirs heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Romans 8:14-17[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]Fourth, If you have received His Spirit and are seeking to follow Him, then you need to hold Him in reverent obedience, because it is God who shows you the way you should go and the works you should do, and gives you the will to do them:[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]12. Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; [/SIZE][SIZE=medium] 13. for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]Fifth, If you have received the Spirit of adoption within you, your maturation has become the responsibility of God and is no longer your own:[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]4. You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium] 5. And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; [/SIZE][SIZE=medium] 6. For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.'' [/SIZE][SIZE=medium] 7. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? [/SIZE][SIZE=medium] 8. But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Hebrews 12:4-8[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]Sixth, Your salvation is in no part accomplished by you, but rather by God and through His elective grace:[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]1. Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]2. looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:1-2[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]Seventh, If you have received His Spirit, you can be confident in your salvation, because His Spirit bears witness to you that you are His own:[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]4. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world our faith. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]5. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]6. This is He who came by water and blood Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:4-6[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]Finally we have this promise from Jesus Christ, Himself, the true and faithful witness, who also has become the judge of all the living and of the dead:[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]14. "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15. "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]17. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]18. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:14-18[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=medium]The New Testament scripture is filled with this doctrine, which is the teaching of Christ, the living Son of God. If you have a problem with it, then you have a problem with Him and not with me. The commandment is “believe and be saved,” not “work and be saved.” Remember, sin has its consequence, but love covers a multitude of sins, the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life and we are called to grace, to receive it and to give it. So believe and be saved, and do not judge your brother: [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium] Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Many professing Christians will suffer rebuke, but better to be rebuked by men than to be rebuked by God.[/SIZE]
     
  12. IBeMe

    IBeMe New Member

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    ·Why do you keep ignoring Paul's words?

    "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, ..."

    When a person ask Jesus into their heart, all their past sins are forgiven.

    They're responsible for their actions after that.

    "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."


    "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

    "But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

    "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:"

    "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

    "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people."

    "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
     
  13. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    I'm not ignoring what Paul wrote, but I believe that you are misunderstanding what was written in Hebrews and I've already commented at length upon that. The Pastor of the congregation with which I am presently worshipping on Sundays, has been teaching from Hebrews at the same time as I've been drawn back to these passages and holds a similar view to your own, but I'm quite convinced that he is mistaken too. You and he both present God as fickle (though he would never admit to such a thing and I doubt that you are intending to suggest it), but God is not a man that He should repent. Let me explain something from another perspective. Consider this, the blood of Jesus was shed upon a cross of wood nearly 2000 years ago, but it remains sufficient to cover the sins that we committed nearly 2000 years later. The scripture calls Jesus the Savior of the world, but especially of those that believe. This last biblical comment doesn't teach universalism, rather it teaches that Jesus' precious blood, His death upon that cruel cross, was sufficient payment for the sin of all mankind, including those that reject Him. The fact that Jesus died for them (that is the ungodly) is sufficient reason to commit all judgment to Him: He bought them with His blood so it's only reasonable that He should determine their eternal fate, and He Himself told us just how He would make that determination:

    21. "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22. "Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23. "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' Matthew 7:21-23

    You'll notice that Jesus does mention works in the sense that those he condemns are those "who practice lawlessness," but His judgment is based upon the fact that He never "knew" them.
    There is a longer passage about how He will make judgment found in chapter 25 of Matthew which gives the appearance that His judgment is based again solely on works, however, the understanding we receive from Paul's writings is that our works reflect what is within us as much as who we are obeying. The "working out" of salvation or of judgment, is in giving reign to the Holy Spirit within us (received through faith in Jesus Christ) or in giving reign to the spirit of this age which works in the hearts of the disobedient. After receiving the Spirit of Christ, a born again saint has a life long battle with the nature that we received by birth which Paul refers to as the "old man" or sinful nature, but we are promised the victory by both the word of God and by the presence of the Divine Spirit within us. The spirit of this age, the spirit of anti-Christ, does not peacefully coexist with the Spirit of Christ, and if you think that either that spirit or that the spirit of man can win in a contest with God, then you're attributing omnipotence to it or to man (and a potential stalemate). There is only One God and we aren't Him.
    The concept of Jesus "knowing" us is not speaking to His knowledge of us or omniscience, but of His relationship to us, e.g. He knows those in whom His Spirit dwells, those who are born again and have become a new creation. These were once children of wrath by nature, but have become children of God and precious to Him:

    1. And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2. in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3. among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7. that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9. not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:1-9

    While it may be possible for us to live a victorious life by demonstrating complete obedience to the guidance of His Spirit, none of the biblical admonitions would be necessary if "evil" inclinations didn't remain with us according to our "fleshly" nature. If we were left to our own resources, not one of us would ever see the kingdom of God. But God, in His graciousness toward us has given His Spirit to all who believe and submit themselves to Him in faith, trusting that the gift given in the life of His Son is sufficient price for our redemption, but not all have entered in by faith, even as we see the admonitions in the book of Hebrews. In the example given of the congregation of Israel passing through the Red sea and under the cloud in the wilderness, all were under the same cloud, but some (even most) did not believe. All of us have a redemptive price paid for us with the blood of our Lord, All if they hear Him speak are exposed to the same truth, all if they have received intercession through prayer (of the actual congregation) have received grace and tasted of the Spiritual gift, but not all have entered in by faith, not all have believed, not all have place their trust in His righteousness rather than in their own, not all have entered into His rest.
    However to those who have believed and received Him by faith we also find in Hebrews: For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:14
    You'll notice that the verse doesn't say "by one offering and by repeated sacrifice or by repeated confessions, or by any works, etc."
    Paul makes this abundantly clear in Romans: 29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32. He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
    33. Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Romans 8:29-34

    And just in case we want to make some argument about those immature in the faith who are deceived by a lot of foolishness Paul wrote to Timothy:
    16. But shun profane and vain babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
    18. who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His,'' and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.'' 20. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:16-21
    As a born again believer, your sin will make you unfit for service, but it no longer condemns you. Having said this, God is faithful to restore those who are disobedient and has taken on this responsibility when they received His Spirit by faith in His Son. I didn't make this up, its all found in scripture. If your heart is unbelieving, then it isn't me that your not believing, but scripture, the very word of God.
    You may believe that you are somehow defending scripture or your church by denying the doctrines of grace, but what you are actually defending is "self righteousness" and the notion that we must make ourselves fit for God, as though He were unable to do it. Sanctification is a grace, not wrought by us, but by His Spirit within us. We can choose to resist Him, to be rebellious, and to even refuse His grace, but if we've received His Spirit, the Lord will see us returned to Him. We have been bought with a price and are not our own. Those who refuse the gospel, who refuse His grace but cling to their own righteousness, trample upon the blood of Christ and treat it as a common thing, which is to say, they are unbelieving and this because they do not have the witness of His Spirit within them. It's always one or the other, it can't be both and God remain all that He proclaims Himself to be. How big is your God?












     
  14. IBeMe

    IBeMe New Member

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    Look again, it's real simple; "he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

    That's the condition; "he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

    I don't see why this is hard to understand.
    You either do, or don't do, what God says to do.
    As you just wrote, it's only "he who does the will of My Father in heaven."


    False.
    "He that committeth sin is of the devil;"

    You think it's OK with God if you serve Satan?

    You think Jesus came and died so that you could sin?

    How come you ignore what you just wrote?

    "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven"

    How come you can't see what you wrote?

    "he who does the will of My Father in heaven"

    If you don't keep God's commandments, you don't love Him.

    "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:"

    It's real easy to understand if we remember that God is God, not us.

    If God say do something, we do it.
    If God says don't do something, we don't do it.
     
  15. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    You sound like a freemason, are you on the level?
    When was the last time you offered up a spotless lamb (or any animal offering for that matter) as a peace or sin offering? When was the last time that you "took someone out to the gate" to stone them to death for committing adultery or even for being a disobedient and rebellious son?
    The context of the verses that you use for your argument are the preaching of Jesus the Christ to those who were under the Law of Moses (the covenant of law). The new and better covenant did not yet exist except in the mind and purposes of God. This principle (of considering context) is one of the first of sound exegesis. The Apostle Paul spent a lot of time explaining that the purpose of the Law of Moses was to show us our sin and need for a savior, and He went further than this, explaining that returning to Law as a means of sanctification or "righteousness" is a form of sin. This was the principle purpose of the book of Hebrews, written to a mixed congregation, some of which were returning to law under the influence of what Paul referred to as the circumcision.

    1. Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:1-6

    The free masons hate this doctrine passionately because their own doctrine says that men must make themselves worthy of knowledge (and of God) by their own effort, so they keep their "secrets" for the initiates who have proven themselves by their behavior and works. I assure you, that despite being a carpenter, Jesus Christ was not a free-mason (or member of the society of builders by whatever name they used in that age) though the Masons will at once claim Him as one of their own and deny His divinity. They would also happily claim the Apostle Paul (a Master builder) while rejecting the doctrines of grace that he taught.


    15. "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
    16. "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. 17. "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18. "For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19. "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20. "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21. "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.' 'Galatians 2:15-21

    If I were you, I'd consider going back to the beginning of this thread and reading all the posts again, carefully, before responding. However, you're free to do whatever your nature requires of you, and if that is to live without grace, then you shall surely die without grace as well.
     
  16. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    I've since learned a lot about this doctrine unintentionally. I think heresy is too mild of a descriptor because it's most basic elements undermine the Christian faith. So IMO it's not even Christianity; it's Christian gnosticism.
     
  17. Chilehead

    Chilehead New Member

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    I have spent much time contemplating the true extent of grace and how God intends for it to be administered. That being said, I have come to the following conclusions (here we go).......
    1.) "God will not be mocked". I can't even start to scratch the surface of how many people use grace as a license to sin. To do so, is mocking God. My reading of the bible has lead me to believe that God is just, that is to say that there are consequences for sin just as there are rewards for obedience. People who sin and then say, "It's okay, I'm under grace", clearly have no conscience, nor do they appear to have truly given their heart to Christ.
    2.) The choice of accepting Christ as God and king is a grace-given qualifier for eternal life. Living as though He is, is what guarantees it. Read Christ's parables. He is clear about the type of person that God preserves, and that which He destroys.
    3.) Sin is not wiped clean by GRACE. It is wiped clean by REPENTANCE, and then by grace God forgives us. Repentance is more than just confession....it is a change of heart to never repeat a sin after the first trespass.
     
  18. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't disagree with your first point, but I do know many professing Christians who choose to sin, by having intimate relationships with the opposite sex before marriage and doing what we used to call "shacking up." I know some of these who feel guilty about their actions (so they have a conscience), but I have no right to decide if they are genuine or not, I can only discern their behavior, warn them of the consequences that they will face (the discipline of God), and refuse fellowship with them as per the exhortation of scripture.
    With regard to your second point, the parables are by no means clear except where an explanation of them is given by Christ. The whole point of speaking in parables was to make the teaching unclear, and Jesus quotes Isaiah to explain this as well. You should consider that when confronted about the difficulty of being saved, Jesus said that it was impossible for men, but that all things are possible with God, making it clear that salvation is of the Lord.
    With regard to your 3rd point, sin is neither wiped out by grace or by repentance, but only by the blood of Christ (for there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood.)
     
  19. Chilehead

    Chilehead New Member

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    Clearly we disagree. It seems illogical for Christ to tell parables in order to be unclear. To do so is to cause confusion, and God is not the author of it. Contrarily, the parables were given as such to serve as an easy way to understand a given point. Point 3 we disagree with completely, and I doubt either one of us will change the other's mind.
     
  20. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    Everything is not what it seems.
    Lets look at what Jesus said:
    10. And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?''
    11. He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12. "For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13. "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14. "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: `Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive;
    15. for the heart of this people has grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart and turn, so that I should heal them.' Matthew 13:10-15

    There are parallel passages in the other 2 synoptic gospels which say essentially the same thing, as in chapter 4 of the gospel according to Mark:
    10. But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable.
    11. And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,
    12. "so that `seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand; lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them.' '' Mark 4:10-12
    In the gospel of Luke the same thing is said in Luke 8:9-10.

    In chapter 13 of Matthew's gospel there is also given the reason of parables as the fulfillment of scripture citing another passage of Isaiah:
    34. All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
    35. that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying: "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.'' Matthew 13:34-35

    If you don't understand the context of Jesus' ministry to the Jews and specifically the predetermined judgment against them for their rebellion and disobedience, then speaking in parables to keep things unclear may seem illogical. If you find the passages that Jesus was referring to in Isaiah, you can gain some understanding of the purpose of the parables, because the passages cited in all 3 synoptic gospels were in reference to the judgment of apostate Israel.
    9. And He said, "Go, and tell this people: `Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.' 10. "Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and return and be healed.'' 11. Then I said, "Lord, how long?'' And He answered: "Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant, the houses are without a man, the land is utterly desolate, 12. The Lord has removed men far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land. 13. But yet a tenth will be in it, and will return and be for consuming, as a terebinth tree or as an oak, whose stump remains when it is cut down. So the holy seed shall be its stump.'' Isaiah 6:9-13
    Some people teach that Jesus came to Israel to become their king, but seeing His rejection by the leaders and elders, He turned to plan B (or the cross.) This however misses the point that Jesus is called the lamb slain from the foundation of the world and at the very beginning of His public ministry He was identified as the lamb of God (and the lamb was always recognized as the Passover sacrifice.) Jesus' death was foretold by Isaiah and by Daniel and the Lord knew from the beginning what was at the end of His road to Jerusalem. A judgment was predetermined by God against the disobedient and rebellious Jews and against a disobedient and rebellious world. The purpose of the parables was to reveal His kingdom only to those whom He chose to reveal it to, those who would inherit it, those who had "ears to hear."
    Some would argue that this judgment was meant only for Israel, but the judgment of the world is spoken of in many places in the scripture and the judgment is not specifically for the evil works of men, but for their rejection of God and the opportunity to turn to Him for salvation. When men harden their hearts against the Lord, He gives them over to judgment and the consequence of their sin. It was this way for those who were under the law, and it remains this way for those who live in this time of grace.
    Recently I've been reading a translation of the Babylonian Talmud. This book is what is called the verbal tradition of the Jewish law that was written from the time of the Babylonian captivity. Christians who take time to read the scripture may have some idea of the law that the Jews were held to, but their law was more expansive than what we find in scripture. The rabbis and Jewish "lawyers" discussed the matters of the law of Moses at great length and worked very hard at determining what amounted to guilt requiring a sin sacrifice, guilt requiring capital punishment, and very significantly interpretations of the scriptural texts that allowed them to work around the prohibitions of the law to give the appearance of keeping the law while still doing their own will in opposition to God's will for them. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes for this very sort of thing:
    9. And He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10. "For Moses said, `Honor your father and your mother'; and, `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11. "But you say, `If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban (that is, dedicated to the temple)''; 12. "and you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13. "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.'' Mark 7:9-13
    Jesus rebuked them for their hypocrisy in that they knew the righteous requirements of the law, but used their manipulation of the letter of the law to do their own will. He warned His disciples to avoid the "leaven" of the scribes and Pharisees which was their doctrine, and He warned those who would hear Him that their righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees and lawyers. How do hearers of the gospel risk this same condemnation? By using Jesus' words and that of His Apostles in the same manner as the scribes and Pharisees, manipulating the message of the gospel into one of licentiousness to justify evil behavior with the blanket of forgiveness under the covenant of His blood. These are those who received the word of the gospel only for the benefit of themselves and not for the glory of God and held it in unbelief to justify their own lawless behavior before men, giving an appearance of righteousness but without the power that comes by His Spirit.
    Israel was judged, but the Lord preserved a remnant. The world will be judged, but the Lord will preserve a remnant and "the holy seed shall be its stump."
     
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