The Idea of Two Gospels

[RichardBurger]

Wisdom from a turnip!

Some think they are such great scholars of the scriptures, teachers of the blind, and teach that the gospel of grace Paul taught was the same gospel Peter taught on the day of Pentecost.

They deny that the gospel of grace was hidden in God and not revealed until given to Paul.

But if Peter was teaching salvation by grace then please explain why Peter did not know that the Gentles would be included in the promised Kingdom until he had a vision from God.

 

[Prentis]

Wisdom from a turnip!

Some think they are such great scholars of the scriptures, teachers of the blind, and teach that the gospel of grace Paul taught was the same gospel Peter taught on the day of Pentecost.

They deny that the gospel of grace was hidden in God and not revealed until given to Paul.

But if Peter was teaching salvation by grace then please explain why Peter did not know that the Gentles would be included in the promised Kingdom until he had a vision from God.

Because the promises were to Israel, and being a man, he thought as a man, thus he thought the promises were still to Israel. Quite obvious. :blink:

As Paul says, we are made partakers of the same promises, those given to Abraham's seed, Christ. Not some other promises of eternal life apart from obeying God... As you suggest!

Some seek to use what Paul says, and the fact we are freely given to run the race to somehow say we don't have to run the race. They turn the gospel into a scheme whereby they do not have to follow Christ, and they turn the grace of God into lasciviousness.

 

[Vengle]

Some think they are such great scholars of the scriptures, teachers of the blind, and teach that the gospel of grace Paul taught was the same gospel Peter taught on the day of Pentecost.

They deny that the gospel of grace was hidden in God and not revealed until given to Paul.

It is not surprising that you feel that way. Before you can understand anything else you must first correctly define the meaning of grace. Otherwise you are building on a faulty foundation. And your definition of grace is wrong because you see it as meaning "saved". But that should not be difficult for you to see that it is obviously wrong because you also know that we are saved by grace. You merely have failed to think that through.

It is talked about two ways in the NT. Sometimes it talks about grace as allowing us to participate in a process of walking toward salvation (a process that we being dead in our sins could not have initiated and therefore it had to come of grace). At other times we are spoken of as though already saved. Now you are smart enough to know that seems like a contradiction. And your faith in God should tell you that there is no contradiction with God. That then should compell you to find the answer which eliminates that contradiction.

I will detail what you need to look for but you must be willing to see it or it is just wind being blown past you.

How can on one hand we be told that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling and yet on the other hand be told we are saved?

The answer is that these are two different perspectives. Now show your self ready to listen as I present those perspectives to you.

We find the answer to what is meant when it speaks as though we are already saved in the illustrations Jesus gave us about rescuing lost sheep. We see that in this particular perspective we are saved insofar as the capableness of the one doing the saving. We can picture it as that lamb being carried in Jesus' arms. We know that lamb is saved from the moment Jesus picks it up because Jesus is capable of saving it.

In the perspective of working out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12) we are not looking at the qualifications of the savior but at the willingness of the lamb not to fight and resist being in the savior's arms.

I will pause there to give you time to ponder that little tid-bit.

[quote name= ]
But if Peter was teaching salvation by grace then please explain why Peter did not know that the Gentles would be included in the promised Kingdom until he had a vision from God.
[/quote]

This is a bit more complex but it is not beyond your being able to grasp it, either.

You see, the Israelites knew that God's purpose was to groom a holy nation for dominion of this world. Peter had long saw the grace of God allowing that to become a reality for the natural Israelite. He merely did not see that that same grace would extend that privilege also to Gentiles.

The Jews had long saw the responsibility to proselytize Gentiles. (Matthew 23:15) So they did see that some Gentiles would find a sort of subjigated place as servants to God's holy people. But with so many of his natural brothers having been unable to enter that New Covenant there was good cause why he needed to be shown that did not mean people of the nations were without hope.

It was not that Peter did not know God's grace. It was that Peter did not see how far that grace of God would extend.

 

[RichardBurger]

So the fact that Peter did not know, until God gave him a vision, shows that Peter was teaching the same gospel as Paul. Amazing!

The word grace, what does it mean to you. To me it means "un-merited favor". Read the scriptures below and make your own choice as to what it means.

Acts 13:43
43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
NKJV
Acts 18:27-28
27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;
28 for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.
NKJV
Acts 20:24
24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
NKJV
Romans 1:5-6
5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
NKJV
Romans 3:24-26
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV
Romans 4:4-8
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV
Romans 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
NKJV
Acts 18:27
27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;
NKJV
Romans 3:24
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
NKJV
Romans 4:4
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
NKJV
Romans 5:2
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
NKJV
Romans 5:15
15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
NKJV
Romans 5:20-21
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
NKJV
Romans 11:6
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
NKJV
Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
NKJV
1 Corinthians 15:10
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
NKJV
2 Corinthians 8:1
8 Moreover, brethren, we make known to you the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia:
NKJV
Galatians 1:6
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
NKJV
Galatians 5:4
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
NKJV
Ephesians 2:5-6
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
NKJV
Ephesians 1:6-7
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
NKJV

 

[Vengle]

So the fact that Peter did not know, until God gave him a vision, shows that Peter was teaching the same gospel as Paul. Amazing!

The word grace, what does it mean to you. To me it means "un-merited favor". Read the scriptures below and make your own choice as to what it means.

The problem with that definition is that it is vague. What it means to you it does not necessarily convey to someone else. You might see that favor as a permanent thing. Others might see that that favor is given on a probationary basis for the purpose of allowing men who were previously as dead in God's eyes to be viewed by Him as to whether they are willing to cooperate with His instruction of them and thus allow Him to recreate the person they are in their mind and heart.

The actual definition of grace is as shown us at Exodus 33:17 "And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name."

This signifies our being recognized by God as ones whose faith is willing to allow him to work with us as a father works with his children to mold and shape them into mature adults that would bring him honor instead of shame.

If you take the definition of grace beyond that you allow the entry way for your own wisdom to shape what it means to you. That then in turn distorts other of your doctrines which may be dependent upon having a correctly understood foundation of grace.

Even all of these scriptures you have posted here are subject to the influence of your personal idea of what grace means.


[quote name= ]
Acts 13:43
43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
NKJV
[/quote]

Yes, we must not take God's recogniton for granted but must use it for the purpose he has extended it to us; that being so we could repent and be worked with through His instruction and discipline of us by means of His Word so He can create that New Man in us. (1 Corinthians 15:10; 2 Corinthians 6:1-10)

[quote name= ]
Acts 18:27-28
27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;
28 for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.
NKJV
[/quote]

Yes, it is the merciful and undeserved recognition of us by God that offers us this opportunity. Even as for many His grace recognizes them for different gifts.

And we could go on and on; but would that make a difference to you?

 

[dan p]

Give scriptures to prove that there has never been but one gospel. I, personally will not accept your assumtions and rationalization. Until you do I will not cluter up this thread with junk by replying to you.

Hi , RichardBurger , and I have yet to see and one prove that there is only one gospel and have NEVER seen a verse that anyone has produced .

Yet I can produce 6 Gospels and Paul has written 9 descriptions of the Gospel of Grace , good post , dan p

 

[Vengle]

Hi , RichardBurger , and I have yet to see and one prove that there is only one gospel and have NEVER seen a verse that anyone has produced .

Yet I can produce 6 Gospels and Paul has written 9 descriptions of the Gospel of Grace , good post , dan p

People do not see what they do not desire to see.

That is why I don't always offer what could be offered. I would show where Jesus said we ought to use discretion in holding back that way at times but i won't because I know that rather than glean from it you would be angered at me for it.

I pointed out the last few verses of Isaiah 48 and first part of Isaiah 49 clearly show Jesus was leading Israel and he is for a fact the true Israel.

Paul said also said the following: 1 Corinthians 10:1 ¶Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

But as I said, people only see what they desire to see.

 

[dan p]

People do not see what they do not desire to see.

That is why I don't always offer what could be offered. I would show where Jesus said we ought to use discretion in holding back that way at times but i won't because I know that rather than glean from it you would be angered at me for it.

I pointed out the last few verses of Isaiah 48 and first part of Isaiah 49 clearly show Jesus was leading Israel and he is for a fact the true Israel.

Paul said also said the following: 1 Corinthians 10:1 ¶Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

But as I said, people only see what they desire to see.

Hi , and Paul said they he has revealed to all the whole counsel of God , so do not hold back from us , as we all do not know everything .

How what you have written anything to do with the OP ?? DAN P

 

[Vengle]

Hi , and Paul said they he has revealed to all the whole counsel of God , so do not hold back from us , as we all do not know everything .

How what you have written anything to do with the OP ?? DAN P

That should be clear to any who want to see it.

From the moment God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them (them = the man and his helpmeet corresponding to God and his helpmeet Jesus through whom he created all things) have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth" (Genesis 1:26) the one and only gospel was established for all eternity.

And when sin caused a deviation from it, God drew us right back to it, saying, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." (Genesis 3:15)

That seed is Jesus and all the details were permanently established then and there as to how God would reclaim Adam's offspring.

Nothing that has taken place, and no promise that was ever given has deviated from that plan in any way.

It is the selfish carnal flesh that desires special recognition aside from that plan and purpose of God. It has always been nothing but steps being taken within that one and the same gospel designed to lead us to Christ and the holy nation created in him.

Why should I or anyone argue with selfish flesh that has no desire to see that?

I see no value in it. If I have said it once and they would not see it and I said it thrice and they would not see it, then they will not see it because they do not want to see it.

It's that simple.

 

[dan p]

Avoidance is quite the skill, Richard! ;)

Of course we cannot overcome by the flesh. But can we overcome by the Spirit, like Paul says?

Or maybe that's just more figurative speech, for your figurative salvation.

You speak of a salvation apart from God's character, where he makes a deal with man, and says 'believe, and I'll save you', yet it has no bearing on reality!

Hi , and PROTOS is used more than one time .

In John 2:10 and 2 Peter 2:20 it is translated by " beginning " .

" CHIEF " is only used in a secondary use when speaking of Rank or Dignity , which is not the case in 1 Tim 1:15-16 .

Maybe , will you explain Phil 3:6 , " Concerning zeal , persecuting the assembly , touching the Righteousness which is in the Law , BLAMELESS ??

The CONTEXT is salvaltion and NOT HOW bad we are , because all are sinners saved by Grace , dan p

 

[Prentis]

What you say has nothing to do with the subject matter, dan p, we were talking about overcoming.

Paul was innocent because he did it in ignorance.... And then when Christ shone light on him, he learned to overcome by the Spirit, and to manifest Christ, and be as he is! ;)

That is the power of grace!

 

[Vengle]

What you say has nothing to do with the subject matter, dan p, we were talking about overcoming.

Paul was innocent because he did it in ignorance.... And then when Christ shone light on him, he learned to overcome by the Spirit, and to manifest Christ, and be as he is! ;)

That is the power of grace!

Can you see that Paul was not having to overcome bad habits from practicing evil there? Paul already knew how to do what was right but was just blinded by a zeal born of a lack of knowledge of God's purpose and plans.

There is a huge difference between the transformation of the person who practices sin in total ignorance due to not having the advantage of the oracles Paul as a serious Jew had.

You are right here about to capture what Paul meant when he said: Romans 3:1-2 "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."

That oracle is the word of God which speaks his Law to our heart. Thus the advantage of circumcision. And The Christian who has been a serious Christian from birth (or even for just sufficient enough years) does have that same advantage.

There is some false teaching built up around fallacious ideas of the oracles and what Paul there meant. So I thought that as long as you are standing over it close enough to see it, why not look down and see what is laying at your feet.

 

[Prentis]

Can you see that Paul was not having to overcome bad habits from practicing evil there? Paul already knew how to do what was right but was just blinded by a zeal born of a lack of knowledge of God's purpose and plans.

There is a huge difference between the transformation of the person who practices sin in total ignorance due to not having the advantage of the oracles Paul as a serious Jew had.

You are right here about to capture what Paul meant when he said: Romans 3:1-2 "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."

That oracle is the word of God which speaks his Law to our heart. Thus the advantage of circumcision. And The Christian who has been a serious Christian from birth (or even for just sufficient enough years) does have that same advantage.

There is some false teaching built up around fallacious ideas of the oracles and what Paul there meant. So I thought that as long as you are standing over it close enough to see it, why not look down and see what is laying at your feet.

Yes, Paul had already learned to discipline himself, and he had already learn some important traits of character, but they were apart from love, and channeled wrong. Since it was for a lack of knowledge, God had mercy.

 

[Vengle]

Yes, Paul had already learned to discipline himself, and he had already learn some important traits of character, but they were apart from love, and channeled wrong. Since it was for a lack of knowledge, God had mercy.

Amen to that. It appears that Paul's zeal for good works (even though misguided) did at least give God something to work with.

 

[Prentis]

Amen to that. It appears that Paul's zeal for good works (even though misguided) did at least give God something to work with.

Yes. A brother once told me, 'stand out to God (not to be confused with standing out to men), whatever you do, don't just go with the flow, at least you give God something to work with'.

If one is zealous even in ignorance, God has something to work with. That person is then tested by his humility. When God DOES come to show him the way, does he break and learn, or remain stubborn?

 

[Vengle]

Yes. A brother once told me, 'stand out to God (not to be confused with standing out to men), whatever you do, don't just go with the flow, at least you give God something to work with'.

If one is zealous even in ignorance, God has something to work with. That person is then tested by his humility. When God DOES come to show him the way, does he break and learn, or remain stubborn?

Amen. And such is the danger of believing that works are not at all necessary just because they in themselves cannot save us.

 

[Prentis]

Amen. And such is the danger of believing that works are not at all necessary just because they in themselves cannot save us.

Yes. It is Christ who justifies, but he does not justify the wicked!

If at least we are seeking to obey God and do what is right, and this with enough humility to see our faults, he can teach us.

 

[dan p]

Whether or not Paul is "the first saved under the gospel of grace" is NOT a major doctrinal issue. It's OK if we differ on the interpretation of this passage. IMO the context of the chapter doesn't support your thesis but you are entitled to your beliefs. However, any doctrinal conclusion should not be based solely on ONE VERSE OF SCRIPTURE. Do you have any other verses to support your interpretation? I'm willing to change my opinion on this matter if you can supply a more concrete foundation.

Hi , and Pauline Dispensationalist have many more proofs than 1 Tim 1:15-16 .

Ijust have to add that the Greek PROTOS/FIRST can also be translated by our English word BEGINNING as used in John 2:20 and 2 Peter 2:20 and many Greek words have more than one meaning .

The Greek word CHARIS /GRACE , is translated by more than 12 different English words .and that means the English translations are not Inspired and only the Oringinal Autographs are inspired ..

Rom 1:1 is another proof that Saul , after salvation could not be a Phraisee after he was saved .

The Greek word APHORIZO in Rom 1:1 means that Saul , after he was saved COULD never preach Law , and Aphorizo , means Paul was Forever LIMITED to only preach the gospel of God ,

Just use VINE'S to check Separated , and all will see that APHORIZO can also be translated by the English words , LIMITED and BOUNDRIES .

Check out Phil 3:6 , and it says that , " as touching the Law , Paul was BLAMELESS and the CONTEXT of 1 Tim 1:15 is salvation NOT who is the Worst of sinners , like the ones that crucified Jesus ? dan p

 

[FHII]

Hi , RichardBurger , and I have yet to see and one prove that there is only one gospel and have NEVER seen a verse that anyone has produced .

Yet I can produce 6 Gospels and Paul has written 9 descriptions of the Gospel of Grace , good post , dan p

A HA! Now we are getting somewhere. You can produce 6 Gospels (I take it you mean you can identify them in the Bible, and not come up with them on your own), and Paul gave 9 descriptions of the Gospel of Grace. That's pretty curious, because I can find 4 detailed accounts of the life, death and resurrection of Christ, and yet he didn't live, die and ressurect 4 different times....

But ok... 6 + 9 = 15..... So can you give me some insight into these 15 different Gospels?

 

[dan p]

A HA! Now we are getting somewhere. You can produce 6 Gospels (I take it you mean you can identify them in the Bible, and not come up with them on your own), and Paul gave 9 descriptions of the Gospel of Grace. That's pretty curious, because I can find 4 detailed accounts of the life, death and resurrection of Christ, and yet he didn't live, die and ressurect 4 different times....

But ok... 6 + 9 = 15..... So can you give me some insight into these 15 different Gospels?

Hi , and what I written on 16 gospels is just and outline of what the Dispensation of the Grace of God means , dan p