The Idea of Two Gospels

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RichardBurger

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The Idea of Two Gospels
:
There have been many discussions about the “gospel of the kingdom” and the “gospel of grace.” Most do not agree that there is any difference in them. This writing is my attempt at showing that there is a very big difference.

2 Cor 3:6-18 (NKJ) Paul writing.
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the """new covenant,""" not of the letter (Law) but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation (the Law) had glory, the ministry of righteousness (grace) exceeds much more in glory.
10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.

11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

What was passing away? According to the above it was "the ministry of condemnation, verse 9 (the law). What was taking its place? According to the above, verse 8, it was "the ministry of the Spirit." Therefore there were two ministries, two gospels. One was passing away (the law that Jesus and the 12 taught) and another was taking its place.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech--
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as ""by"" the Spirit of the Lord.

In the above we see that an old covenant was passing away. Take verse 8 and then look at verses 17 and 18. Men can not “transform themselves” by the choices THEY make and by their own power.

Notice that in Acts 3:21 Peter is proclaiming things made known by the prophets since the world began. ----- In contrast, in the book of Romans, 16:25, Paul is proclaiming things kept secret since the world began. Something made known cannot be a secret and something kept secret has not been made known. Clearly, Peter and Paul proclaimed two different messages.

Many say that Abraham and the Jews were saved by the grace of God in the “”same manner”” as we are in this age. I intend to show that it isn’t true.

It is true that Abraham "believed God" and it was accounted as righteousness before God. Does that mean that Abraham was saved at that moment? Did it mean he was saved by the grace of God and could enter into heaven to be with God? If he were saved at that moment, under the grace of God, he would not have been required to do the works that God had him do later in life. If his later works were required he was not saved by grace. It would have been by works.

We know that the Holy Spirit was not given until after Christ died on the cross. Abraham was not reborn and sealed by the Spirit. If he had been he would not have been required to do any works. If we look in Luke 16:19--- and read the story of the rich man and the tax collector who died we see that Abraham was in a part of Hades with both of them but not in the bad part, but in a separate part Jesus called Paradise from the cross.

Abraham was accounted as righteous but he could not BE righteous until Jesus shed His blood on the cross to pay for his sins in the flesh. No one was ever saved until the sin debt was paid. Salvation was, and is, in the work that Jesus (God) did on the cross. Everything points to Christ. Everything begins and ends with what Jesus did on the cross. To say that salvation came before Christ is to say His death was not necessary.

When we read about Abraham we must consider the whole life he lived, we see that he was required to offer up his son, that he was required to circumcise himself and all the males in his family. God’s relationship with Abraham was modified as time went on and eventually the law was given through Moses. It is clear to me that, although Abraham believed God and it was accounted as righteousness before God, there were works that were added at a later date.

During the dispensation of the Law of Moses a person was righteous before God by having faith in Him and by demonstrating their faith by their works just as Abraham did. This is exactly what James is writing about in James 2. James uses Abraham as an example and the words “justified” by works. James is correct in what he has said. He was preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

We can see that Jesus told the Jews to keep the laws of Moses and we can see that the 12 were teaching the same thing. It was the gospel of the kingdom and it was faith plus (+) works. They, the Jews, were to accept Jesus as the Messiah and He would set up His kingdom rule on this earth. But they rejected Jesus and His gospel of the kingdom. This teaching did not change until Paul came on the scene. We can see that, by reading the early chapters of Acts. I believe Acts to be a transitional book.

Paul teaches that Abraham’s faith making him righteous before God was a """""foreshadowing""""foreseeing"""beforehand"""would be"""
of the gospel of Grace that was to come (Gal 3:7-9). This means this was to be true in the future.

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, """foreseeing""" that God """would""" justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham """beforehand,""" saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
(NKJ)

Therefore the mystery Paul spoke of was much more than an acceptance of the Gentiles. It was a whole new gospel that was not seen in the O.T. -- Peter acknowledges that the message has changed when he says that the Jews would ""NOW"" be saved in the same manner (way) the Gentiles are, see verse 11 below.

Acts 15:7-11
7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them:"Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."
NKJV

The above verse 11 begs the question, in what manner were the Jews saved before???

My only conclusion is that the gospel for the Gentiles is a unique gospel given to Paul for the age of the grace of God. Although it was told to Abraham """beforehand""" it was not ""in effect"" and applied until Jesus died on the cross.

I see that the gospel of faith + works is a gospel that is suited for religion since it requires men to do religious things. I also see that Jesus did not think very highly of man’s religious works.

I see that the gospel of grace is not a religion. It is about a covenant relationship with God in the heart based on belief in God‘s work on the cross. It is a relationship of Father to son. It is a relationship of belief, faith, trust, and confidence in our heavenly Father and His work on the cross. If you have this relationship God does not require anything else.

Richard
 

Jake

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....and this "idea" is simply that, an idea that you created.

There is no truth in it.

There is only one gospel.
 

jiggyfly

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....and this "idea" is simply that, an idea that you created.

There is no truth in it.

There is only one gospel.
Yes indeed, but there are different audiences and thus the purpose for the differences between Peter's and Paul's messages. They speak of the same "good news" in different words in order to reach their audiences. The gospel had a different impact on Israel then it did for the Gentile. The Gentiles were not living under bondage to the Law given through Moses so they were ignorant of this burden.
 

Jake

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Believers are all Israel, we are all one, in Christ.

The old law had to be addressed somewhere, because they are all part of our heritage, we had to be told that we were not under it any longer, that Jesus came to fulfill them. It's not a start/stop scenario, it's a continuation of God's plan for all mankind.

They are blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles enter in, there is one plan, there is one covenant, the new has replaced the old.
 

RichardBurger

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Give scriptures to prove that there has never been but one gospel. I, personally will not accept your assumtions and rationalization. Until you do I will not cluter up this thread with junk by replying to you.
 

jiggyfly

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Believers are all Israel, we are all one, in Christ.

The old law had to be addressed somewhere, because they are all part of our heritage, we had to be told that we were not under it any longer, that Jesus came to fulfill them. It's not a start/stop scenario, it's a continuation of God's plan for all mankind.

They are blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles enter in, there is one plan, there is one covenant, the new has replaced the old.
Read Romans 2, and by the way the old covenant was with Israel.
 

Prentis

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The new covenant has broken the wall of partition, and made us one in Christ. Anything that seeks to rebuild this wall is nothing short of madness! What God has made one, let no man break asunder.

We are grafted in to Israel, those who reign with God, and called to overcome, and that is the same for Jew and Gentile.

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The same Gospel was preached to Abraham. The gospel was there before Christ; the difference is that Christ gives power to fulfill the fulness of the Gospel and be as he is, holy as he is holy, as we are called to be.
 

RichardBurger

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The new covenant has broken the wall of partition, and made us one in Christ. Anything that seeks to rebuild this wall is nothing short of madness! What God has made one, let no man break asunder.

We are grafted in to Israel, those who reign with God, and called to overcome, and that is the same for Jew and Gentile.

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The same Gospel was preached to Abraham. The gospel was there before Christ; the difference is that Christ gives power to fulfill the fulness of the Gospel and be as he is, holy as he is holy, as we are called to be.

Foreseeing-Beforehand-would justify

Galatians 3:6-8
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." NKJV
Note the words “foreseeing“, “would justify“, “beforehand“. They clearly indicate that faith was not instituted at that time. It was the promise of a future event.

You use these verses in error. They don't support your ideas.
 
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Prentis

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The gospel has not changed, as it says, we are justified the same way Abraham was.

I do concede I did not use the best verse, not a wise way. Thanks for the correction, BibleScribe. :)

What I'm trying to say is that indeed God has not changed the way we are justified. It is by men consecrated to God that people were reconciled to God, as examples of Christ. It ultimately happens in Christ, but we are to showcase that same life if we really are of him.

There is one gospel. Grace is the power of God working in us to conform us to him.
 

Vengle

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We could zero in here also: Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)"

Paul's argument is not that it is only that way now, but that it has always been that way.

This is Paul's support for his conclusion that (Romans 9:6) "... they are not all Israel, which are of Israel."
 

RichardBurger

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Galatians 3:6-8
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." NKJV

In order for Prentis and Vengle to be right, verse 8 has to be re-writen as follows; "8 And the Scripture, seeing that God has justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed

The words, foreseeing, would, beforehand mean a future promised event.

Common sense when we actually read the words.
 

Jake

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Paul preached one and the same gospel, in Acts he called it the kingdom of God, in others the kingdom of grace, yet in others the gospel of God and the gospel of Christ.

Acts 28:28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. 31 He proclaimed the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ—with all boldness and without hindrance.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

One gospel!

Mark 8:35 For whosever will save his life, shall lose it; but whosever shall lose his life shall save his life for my sake and the gospel's (ONE) the same shall save it.

In others Paul calls it the gospel of God and the gospel of Christ

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ; for it is the power of God unto salvation for all who believeth, to the Jew first and then to the Greek.

The gospel is eternal, Richard, it started in Genesis and it does not end. In the Revelation it's referred to as the Everlasting Gospel, which is the ONE and the SAME gospel we have now.

The gospel is much, much more than what you believe it to be, there is power in the gospel, to walk as He walked on this earth and the power to overcome! People who ignore and not obey the very words of the Word Himself, are only getting 1/2 a gospel, which is really no gospel at all.
 
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Rach1370

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Richard, can I ask you a question?
You say that the Jews are under a completely different covenant than Christians, that because Peter or the 12 never mention that the Jews they were preaching to where saved under Jesus' blood, that it had nothing to do with the gospel Paul taught. How then, do you reconcile Isaiah 52 and 53 with that? It is clearly a prophecy to the Jews that Jesus would come and die for their sins, His blood becoming the sacrifice for sins, thus giving them salvation through faith.

Isaiah 52:14-15a "As many were astonished at you - his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind - so shall he sprinkle many nations..."
"Sprinkle" here is clearly meant to be seen as the blood sacrifice, when the blood was sprinkled upon the alter to make atonement for sins.

Isaiah 53:5 "but he was wounded for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace and with his stripes we are healed."

Isaiah 53:11-12 "Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors."

All these passages, in fact the whole prophecy, goes through who Jesus was, what He did, and why He did it. The gospel message. Jesus came to die for the lost and sinful, and because of His substitutionary atonement, we may receive grace and be saved. This is the same gospel Paul preached, and yet this prophecy is clearly written to the Jewish people.
 

Prentis

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The whole purpose of God is to make for himself a people, that follow him.

God is not after a scheme, agreeing to knowledge, and all those sorts of things...

He is after hearts. He seeks a people that will follow him and worship him. The good news is that he has made a new creation, and it is available to us that we might be empowered. :)
 

Vengle

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RichardBurger said: "In order for Prentis and Vengle to be right, verse 8 has to be re-writen as follows; "8 And the Scripture, seeing that God has justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed"

Well that proves it Richard. Enough words and maybe you will dazzle me, too. LOL.

The Law was a tutor or schoolmaster for the purpose of what Richard?

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Is that or is that not the same gospel Richard?

It has been the same gospel ever since Genesis 3:15.

Oh, Richard. LOL.

Are you caught up in a belief that Romans chapter 11 is speaking of saving the natural nation of Israel? Becuse if that is what has you hung up on this two gospel idea I would be happy to do a line by line discussion of Romans chapters 9-11 with you.

That is not at all what Paul was saying in Romans chapter 11. But many people do think it is. I used to myself, until after consentrating on that chapter and praying about it for more than a year God finally helped me to understand what he said there.

I used to defend that it was about that fleshly nation quite vigorously. But then one day I caught a glimpse through the spirit and I grabbed on like Jacob wrestling that angel. I refused to let go until it all became crystal clear. God came through and rewarded my desire to know. And the way he made me have to wrestle with him to learn it taught me a few other things also. He is a wise and wonderful God.

PS/ Stop trying to rewrite the scriptures. LOL.
 

veteran

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Now others here know what I've been through with trying to show Richard about The Gospel back in the Old Testament as the same Gospel we have believed, the main difference being that they didn't receive the resulting gift of Christ's crucifixion yet.

And where does the idea come from that the faith of the saints in Old Testament times isn't the same kind of faith we Gentiles have on Christ Jesus?

When Melchizedek appeared to Abraham and offered him "bread and wine", that symbolized the New Covenant that would come. When God told Abraham that through his loins all nations would blessed, and Abraham believed God, was not that an act of faith? when God told Abraham that he would bear a son who His Promise would continue through, and with God telling Abraham to then sacrifice that son Isaac, wasn't Abraham showing faith in God that He would accomplish what He said and somehow preserve his seed?

At the end of John 8, Christ gave answer to the Pharisees if Jesus had seen Abraham, and Jesus told them Abraham rejoiced to see His day; he saw it and was glad. He then told them, "before Abraham was, I AM." Just Who was it that appeared to Abraham at his tent door and spoke with him in Gen.18, the other two men being the two angels which went into Sodom to pull Lot's family out?

Even Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of Christ's second coming with ten thousands of His saints per Jude 1. So how did even Enoch know about Christ? That's enough to suggest that even Enoch knew of God's Plan of Salvation through His Son all the way back then.

So how in the world can so many Churches today keep treating the Old Testament saints like they didn't know about The Gospel Salvation, when it was through them that our Heavenly Father first revealed it through?
 

RichardBurger

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Richard, can I ask you a question?
You say that the Jews are under a completely different covenant than Christians, that because Peter or the 12 never mention that the Jews they were preaching to where saved under Jesus' blood, that it had nothing to do with the gospel Paul taught. How then, do you reconcile Isaiah 52 and 53 with that? It is clearly a prophecy to the Jews that Jesus would come and die for their sins, His blood becoming the sacrifice for sins, thus giving them salvation through faith.

Isaiah 52:14-15a "As many were astonished at you - his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind - so shall he sprinkle many nations..."
"Sprinkle" here is clearly meant to be seen as the blood sacrifice, when the blood was sprinkled upon the alter to make atonement for sins.

Isaiah 53:5 "but he was wounded for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace and with his stripes we are healed."

Isaiah 53:11-12 "Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors."

All these passages, in fact the whole prophecy, goes through who Jesus was, what He did, and why He did it. The gospel message. Jesus came to die for the lost and sinful, and because of His substitutionary atonement, we may receive grace and be saved. This is the same gospel Paul preached, and yet this prophecy is clearly written to the Jewish people.

But they, (the Jews) did not accept Jesus as their Mesiah and King. If they had accepted him the age of grace would not have happened since it was not in prophesy. The Jews would have their kingdom under Christ and the Gentiles would be saved "through the Jews" which was in prophesy.

RichardBurger said: "In order for Prentis and Vengle to be right, verse 8 has to be re-writen as follows; "8 And the Scripture, seeing that God has justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed"

Well that proves it Richard. Enough words and maybe you will dazzle me, too. LOL.

The Law was a tutor or schoolmaster for the purpose of what Richard?

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Is that or is that not the same gospel Richard?

It has been the same gospel ever since Genesis 3:15.

Oh, Richard. LOL.

Are you caught up in a belief that Romans chapter 11 is speaking of saving the natural nation of Israel? Becuse if that is what has you hung up on this two gospel idea I would be happy to do a line by line discussion of Romans chapters 9-11 with you.

That is not at all what Paul was saying in Romans chapter 11. But many people do think it is. I used to myself, until after consentrating on that chapter and praying about it for more than a year God finally helped me to understand what he said there.

I used to defend that it was about that fleshly nation quite vigorously. But then one day I caught a glimpse through the spirit and I grabbed on like Jacob wrestling that angel. I refused to let go until it all became crystal clear. God came through and rewarded my desire to know. And the way he made me have to wrestle with him to learn it taught me a few other things also. He is a wise and wonderful God.

PS/ Stop trying to rewrite the scriptures. LOL.

I did not re-write the scriptures and you know it, so your are making a false charge and that is not love and is breaking the law of God. My re-write is the way you have to see it if you deny that the promise to Abraham was FOR THE FUTURE as the scriptures tell us.
 

RichardBurger

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Now others here know what I've been through with trying to show Richard about The Gospel back in the Old Testament as the same Gospel we have believed, the main difference being that they didn't receive the resulting gift of Christ's crucifixion yet.

And where does the idea come from that the faith of the saints in Old Testament times isn't the same kind of faith we Gentiles have on Christ Jesus?

When Melchizedek appeared to Abraham and offered him "bread and wine", that symbolized the New Covenant that would come. When God told Abraham that through his loins all nations would blessed, and Abraham believed God, was not that an act of faith? when God told Abraham that he would bear a son who His Promise would continue through, and with God telling Abraham to then sacrifice that son Isaac, wasn't Abraham showing faith in God that He would accomplish what He said and somehow preserve his seed?

At the end of John 8, Christ gave answer to the Pharisees if Jesus had seen Abraham, and Jesus told them Abraham rejoiced to see His day; he saw it and was glad. He then told them, "before Abraham was, I AM." Just Who was it that appeared to Abraham at his tent door and spoke with him in Gen.18, the other two men being the two angels which went into Sodom to pull Lot's family out?

Even Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of Christ's second coming with ten thousands of His saints per Jude 1. So how did even Enoch know about Christ? That's enough to suggest that even Enoch knew of God's Plan of Salvation through His Son all the way back then.

So how in the world can so many Churches today keep treating the Old Testament saints like they didn't know about The Gospel Salvation, when it was through them that our Heavenly Father first revealed it through?

I have never said that the O.T. was void of Christ. It is all about Christ ---- and His coming to be the king of the Jews and save their nation. But you do not find the Gospel of grace that Paul taught. The covenant with Abraham was to be the father of a great nation. Nothing in the O.T. after Abraham was for the Gentiles except that they could be saved through a Jew.

God turned His back on the Gentiles when He selected Abraham to be the father of His people, the Jews. --- After His people, the Jews, rejected Him He turned to the Gentiles with a new convenant of God's grace (no law) given to Paul for all of mankind. This new covenant is not based on what Man does, but on what God has already done (finished) on the cross.

No where in the O.T. and the first 4 books of the N.T. do we find the gospel of grace given to all men on a level playing field. Nothing in prophesy told of this age, it was "hidden in God" just as it was said in the scriptures Paul wrote. When men deny that this gospel of Grace was "hidden in God' Then they deny the word of God.
 

NicholasMarks

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Almighty God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and Paul only speak one messageand no matter how we percieve that message it always says the same thing. It is best summed up as 'righteousness' and righteousness is living our lives in such a way so as to upbuild our spirit in a wonderful way as guided by Jesus' accurate teachimg. If we are the host of a strong, healthy spirit, built upon Jesus Christ's accurate teaching, we have all sorts of things going for us. We have an inner strength to build our own health upon. A guiding force that sees through evil, a personable character which isn't easily fooled...Almighty God and his Son to guide us towards everlasting life.

As we are on the verge of 'great tribulation' it is wise for all Christians to examine Jesus' word closely and reinforce this wonderful property within us that will save us from all evil influences.
 

Vengle

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Richard says: "I did not re-write the scriptures and you know it, so your are making a false charge and that is not love and is breaking the law of God."


Calm yourself Richard. I was just rassing you for having said: "In order for Prentis and Vengle to be right, verse 8 has to be re-writen as follows; "8 And the Scripture, seeing that God has justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed"


I know you don't rewrite the scripture. I have more trust of love in you than to beleve that you would do that.


And when you see a passage differently than I therefore I seek first to understand, then if I yet disagree I seek to be understood.

You rascal you. LOL.

We love you brother.