The Immaculate Conception Error!

[iakov]

I never met Mother Theresa, or Father Damian.
Neither of these great people were around when my husband was taken from his family by a drunk driver, and I was left with seven kids to raise alone, and no assets at all but my own determination. You've heard me tell the story...married right out of high school (cuz girls didn't need a fancy education to change diapers, mop floors, and bake biscuits), I had no marketable skills. I didn't even have a driver's licence...not that it would have done me any good...the car was totaled.

Sooooo.....how is that the RCC's fault?

 

[iakov]

Well if according to the catholics, any one who disagrees with them is a protestant, t

Did you just make that up or can you cite an official RCC teaching that says "Anyone who disagrees with us is a Protestant"?

 

[iakov]

LOL! Actually, I kinda prefer the back of the bus. More room to sprawl...

LOL???

It's not funny to the people whom you constantly abuse with your slander.

 

[iakov]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that, and if I did, I would quickly correct them.
Obviously, Mary was a great lady, or God would not have chosen her to bear His Son.
However, I think insisting on an "immaculate conception" for her is a bit much.
She was conceived in the regular way...her father and her mother had sex.
Now, I'm sure that she was a Virtuous Woman. Again, God would not have chosen her to be the Lord's mother if she were not.
But sinless? Uh-there was only ever ONE Who was completely without sin. If Mary could be without sin, why couldn't she be the Savior?

But the one that really gets me is the "perpetual virgin" Why, oh, why couldn't Mary have a normal sex life with her husband? Why couldn't she have more children? How would it take anything from Jesus for her to be a normal woman?

A "sinless" Mary could not be a savior because she is not God. Because she is not God she could not destroy the power of death.
Mary wouldn't have a normal sex life if she was a dedicated virgin. (Exo 34:19 “All that open the womb are Mine" NKJV)
It wouldn't take anything from Jesus and she is a normal woman.
Would it hurt for you to recognize the honor which God gave her: "Highly Favored of the Lord" and "Blessed among Women"?

 

[Barrd]

LOL???

It's not funny to the people whom you constantly abuse with your slander.

Iakov, I am not abusing or slandering anyone. Please show me where I have abused or slandered anyone, and I will apologize.

 

[Barrd]

Sooooo.....how is that the RCC's fault?

There was a Catholic church in my town. In fact, many of the people I did drudge work for were Catholics. One Catholic family had been away for the weekend, and forgot and left their cats inside the house....with no litter box. One of them died...the other two had used the house as their litter box. The family hired me to clean up the mess. I'll never forget it.
Oh, and that "other job" I mentioned...you know, the one that only a woman could do, and which would pay way more than yard work? Yeah, you guessed it. There were a couple of Catholic men among those that offered me that job. Although I did get a lot of Baptists, and a few Pentecostals among the men who made me this offer.
The RCC in my town knew all about my situation. They knew about my husband's accident. They knew about my hungry children. They knew that I was about to be in the street. Yeah, a Catholic family was kind enough to hire me to clean up kitty poop...and in the end, they didn't pay me enough to buy dinner...
The wonderful lady who took me in was actually a Baptist. I don't know what I would have done without her...

 

[Barrd]

A "sinless" Mary could not be a savior because she is not God. Because she is not God she could not destroy the power of death.

Since Mary was not God, she could not be sinless. Have you not read:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Now, if Mary were left out, it wouldn't be "all", would it? The verse would have to read:

All except Mary have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Mary wouldn't have a normal sex life if she was a dedicated virgin. (Exo 34:19 “All that open the womb are Mine" NKJV)

Where does it say that she was a dedicated virgin?
Here is the verse you quoted:

Exo 34:19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.

Surely you are not telling me that every first born that was female was a "dedicated virgin"? That doesn't make sense.

It wouldn't take anything from Jesus and she is a normal woman.

Normal women are not "dedicated virgins", Iakov. Normal women who are married have sex with their husbands. There is no sin in a man and his wife having sex. I seriously do not understand how Mary being a "perpetual virgin" has one single thing to do with Christ's sacrifice for us.

I'm trying to make sense of it, but I simply can't.

Would it hurt for you to recognize the honor which God gave her: "Highly Favored of the Lord" and "Blessed among Women"?

When did I say that I did not honor her as "Highly Favored of the Lord" or "Blessed among Women"?

 

[tom55]

And nobody is "the pope". No one kneels to anyone, or kisses anyone's ring. We are all equals.



You are aware, I'm sure, that every church has the right to ordain it's own clergy? We are, under the law, recognized as a church...we may be a bit non-traditional, but we met enough of the criteria to qualify. Of course, it didn't hurt that our Judge of Probate is related to my son-in-law...

The Apostles, according to scripture, set up a hierarchy in the church. The men who walked and talked with the apostles set up a hierarchy. They were not "all equals". If your church is set up where everyone is an equal, your church is not based on scripture or Christian History. That's not to say you are not good Christians and when I say your church I mean ANY church that is operating the way yours is.

Either you believe in Jesus Christ, or you don't.
Either you believe what He told us:

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You forgot to put John 14:26 in context. He was talking to his Apostles and telling THEM they will remember everything that He taught THEM. The passage you referenced does not refer to US.
Also, as I pointed out before, you do not believe communion is His body and blood when He said it was. Therefor it seems to me YOU don't believe what He told us.

Or, choosing to pass Him by, you will rely on some man to "interpret scripture" for you.

WHO INTERPRETS SCRIPTURE FOR Love Inc? ARE THEY INFALLIBLE? Furthermore the Pope does not interpret scripture.

This is the second time I have asked this question: Who do you call in your church when one of your members needs anointing for the sick?? (James 5:14)

By your logic, I guess Jesus Christ is our "pope".

YOU have greatly twisted my logic. I am simply saying whoever is the leader of Love Inc. is your Pope. If you have no leader (elder) you do not have a church based on scripture. (I say this in reference to any church like yours. I am not picking on you)

Well, I know that there are hospitals, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, etc that are Catholic. As far as I know, hospitals are quite adamant that their doctors and nurses will be Catholic...and they are pretty good at what they do. Well, mostly.
Frankly, after seven kids, I was relieved to have my tubes tied so that there wouldn't be any more. Good job that I did, too...given that there could have been eight or nine by the time my David was killed.
Of course, other churches help the poor, too...and without a treasure chest hidden away in some basement somewhere.

Not sure what you mean by "quite adamant that their doctors and nurses be Catholic", however, I do recall in the news a lawsuit filed by a gay employee of a Catholic Hospital for spousal benefits. I could provide a link for you on that story and many other stories in the news about NON Catholic employees at Catholic Hospitals but your disdain for the Catholic Church and our Catholic brothers and sisters is so deep I believe nothing will change your heart/mind. I encourage you to take the time to read the truth instead of reading anti Christian writings. Not sure what is wrong with a Catholic organization preferring that their employees be Catholic. If Love Inc. explodes in growth (let's say 3,000 members) would you hire a Satanist to work for you?

I will say this...the RCC never helped me, or anyone I know. We had a homeless man living under a bridge out near Pensacola. David and I used to bring him food all the time. He wouldn't think of coming home with us, although we offered many times. I think he was concerned about all the kids he saw in our car.
And then, it was Christmas. A Baptist church in Pensacola had bought him a tent, and given him some warm clothes...remember, the climate in Alabama is mild, so camping out isn't as horrible as it might be in, say Buffalo, New York (brrrrr)...but still, he needed a little help. We gave him a little Christmas tree and some decorations for it.
Now, the Catholics knew he was there, and they do have a shelter in Pensacola. But for some reason, they either didn't see him, or they didn't care.
The end of the story is not pretty. Some thugs, thinking that he had Christmas presents, and looking for drug money, killed him and tore his little camp site apart. Two of them were arrested at the scene, the rest fled.

The Catholic Church is well known throughout history for starting missionaries to help the poor and bring the word of Jesus to the WORLD. St. Jude Hospital and Catholic Charities are both in the top 15 charities in the United States along with at least two other Catholic organizations in the top 50 list. Catholic Charities is one of the most generous in the world.




Like I said, I do not live in Europe. Good job I don't, since I don't think I'd be getting the $700...and I know the RCC wouldn't help me.
I live in Alabama, and what I do have, I share.

With most European countries being socialistic in nature you would be getting more than $700.00 a month...... You KNOW the RCC wouldn't help you?? REALLY??

The pope, on the other hand, does live in Europe.

Tom, I do not feast while others fast. The pope, however, lives in opulent splendor, while these poor folks you talk about continue to live in their cardboard houses and scrounge for scraps.

Once again, instead of reading what I wrote you are reading INTO what I wrote. The average poor person in America is very wealthy compared to the average poor person in the WORLD. What YOU have is twice as much as what the average poor person has. COMPARATIVLY you (the average American) do feast as others worldwide fast. When are you going to give up your home for those people who live in cardboard houses and scrounge for scraps?

Think of Jesus' story of the poor widow at the temple.
The rich men who put so much money into the treasury did not impress Jesus one little bit, did they?
According to Him, a poor widow, with her two pennies, put in more than any of them.

Luk 21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
Luk 21:2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
Luk 21:3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
Luk 21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

You might want to get with whoever you have at Love Inc. that interprets scripture for you to properly interpret that story. That passage isn't really about "money". It is about something much deeper.

 

[iakov]

Iakov, I am not abusing or slandering anyone. Please show me where I have abused or slandered anyone, and I will apologize.

Right. You sound just like David Duke. If you can't see that your comments about Catholics are obviously obnoxious then I don't think I can explain it to you.

The way you and others in allegedly Christian forums talk about Catholics would easily allow you to substitute the word "n###er" for "Catholic" and not change the tone of your posts.

If you don't "get" that, then perhaps you just don't want to.

And, no, I'm not a Catholic. I just hate seeing people like you work so hard to divide the Kingdom of God with your hatred of Catholics while our society goes down the toilet into a resurrection of paganism and the ascendance of atheist socialism.

 

[Barrd]

Right. You sound just like David Duke. If you can't see that your comments about Catholics are obviously obnoxious then I don't think I can explain it to you.

The way you and others in allegedly Christian forums talk about Catholics would easily allow you to substitute the word "n###er" for "Catholic" and not change the tone of your posts.

If you don't "get" that, then perhaps you just don't want to.

And, no, I'm not a Catholic. I just hate seeing people like you work so hard to divide the Kingdom of God with your hatred of Catholics while our society goes down the toilet into a resurrection of paganism and the ascendance of atheist socialism.

????
I had never heard of this David Duke, so I googled him. And now I am more confused than ever.
I have to say, if I were black, I think I'd be getting pretty tired of every person who thinks they have a "cause" trying to compare it with the epic battle still being fought to this day for human rights by my people. Women's rights, gay rights...and now, Catholic rights? Really?
Honey, the poor black single Momma trying to work two jobs to support her kids is not interested in your argument with Protestants. She'd like to know when your church is going to get up off some of that treasure and do something for people like her and her children.
Now, I volunteer with a local food bank...I see women like her every week. And the people I work with are Baptists and Methodists...nary a Catholic in the bunch. So, please, don't tell me about your heart for the poor hungry black child...

There are so many causes you could get involved in. Abortion, for instance. 1,500,000 helpless babies being murdered in the U.S. every year...
Yes, and black lives are important too...you think they are still needing recognition? Well, get out there and make some noise, Iakov!
Women's rights...women still do not get paid as much as men, and it is still harder for them to break into certain fields.
You could always come and help Baptists and Methodists fight hunger...
Or, hey...how 'bout "Save the Whales"??

 

[mjrhealth]

f God with your hatred of Catholics while our socie

No one hates catholics, but there are many who despise religion, Catholics just like to feel they are picked on to try and eplain becasue of it they are right. Well sorry I know of no right religion. I was a catholic I have being there and hate what I saw.

 

[KingJ]

No one hates catholics, but there are many who despise religion, Catholics just like to feel they are picked on to try and eplain becasue of it they are right. Well sorry I know of no right religion. I was a catholic I have being there and hate what I saw.

I was also there for a while in my earlier Christian years. I have nothing material against them. A nun lead me to the Lord. I just can't attend there today as the ''order and repeating of lines'' gets to me.

I would say that Catholics are bashed a lot. Specifically by the ''faith'' teaching charismatics. I see it a lot other sites. This thread is a classic example .

 

[StanJ]

I was also there for a while in my earlier Christian years. I have nothing material against them. A nun lead me to the Lord. I just can't attend there today as the ''order and repeating of lines'' gets to me.
I would say that Catholics are bashed a lot. Specifically by the ''faith'' teaching charismatics. I see it a lot other sites. This thread is a classic example .

It was a RC priest that told me years ago when I was living on the streets of Quebec City at 14, that I must be born again. It didn't happen for another 3 years, but he was doing hid duty and without his witness I may never have been saved. I have a great empathy for everyday RCS even though they have suffered for centuries with bad management so to speak. Francis is ushering in a significant changes there I believe. A good change.

 

[Barrd]

I was also there for a while in my earlier Christian years. I have nothing material against them. A nun lead me to the Lord. I just can't attend there today as the ''order and repeating of lines'' gets to me.

I would say that Catholics are bashed a lot. Specifically by the ''faith'' teaching charismatics. I see it a lot other sites. This thread is a classic example .

Maybe we ought to stop worrying about what other people believe, and pay more attention to working out our own salvation in fear and trembling...

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

The wars of the reformation have been over for about 400 years. It's probably time to move on.

Unless, of course, someone really needs to have someone to look down on and to mock and to insult and to slander.

There seems to be a very large number of Protestants who would be quite happy to pass laws that required Catholics to ride in the back of the bus.... -|

I see less of it now, actually. The dislike used to be mutual but Catholics have really softened their stance and protestants have too, just not much. Today I'll be walking around with ashes on my head getting funny looks, may even have some zealous protestant try to "evangelize" me when in actuality, It's likely I know the bible better than he does, lol.

So, you never heard of Mother Theresa of Calcutta or Father Damian of Molokai or St. Jude's Children's Hospital?

Or, don't you care to know?

Not to mention countless others like St. Francis of Assisi, one of the great and humble saints of God. And St. Augustine who protestants love and admire, and others.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that, and if I did, I would quickly correct them.
Obviously, Mary was a great lady, or God would not have chosen her to bear His Son.
However, I think insisting on an "immaculate conception" for her is a bit much.
She was conceived in the regular way...her father and her mother had sex.
Now, I'm sure that she was a Virtuous Woman. Again, God would not have chosen her to be the Lord's mother if she were not.
But sinless? Uh-there was only ever ONE Who was completely without sin. If Mary could be without sin, why couldn't she be the Savior?

But the one that really gets me is the "perpetual virgin" Why, oh, why couldn't Mary have a normal sex life with her husband? Why couldn't she have more children? How would it take anything from Jesus for her to be a normal woman?

She bore God in her womb, that's a pretty big deal lol. Maybe she took that very seriously and dedicated her life to the Lord? We have nuns in the church that do that, no sex, EVER as they honor God. It's really not that strange of a practice and Jesus had something to say about celibate life Matthew 19:12

For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchsdfor the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

But we have a tendency to judge things not by 1st century Judea, but by our own modern times and customs.

Let me ask you, do retarded people sin? Do babies sin?

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

Right. You sound just like David Duke. If you can't see that your comments about Catholics are obviously obnoxious then I don't think I can explain it to you.

The way you and others in allegedly Christian forums talk about Catholics would easily allow you to substitute the word "n###er" for "Catholic" and not change the tone of your posts.

If you don't "get" that, then perhaps you just don't want to.

And, no, I'm not a Catholic. I just hate seeing people like you work so hard to divide the Kingdom of God with your hatred of Catholics while our society goes down the toilet into a resurrection of paganism and the ascendance of atheist socialism.

I really hate that as well. Not saying Barrd is doing it, but so many others are and it's disgusting.

Both sides believe Jesus is God in flesh. If you believe that you are my brother or sister in Christ. Sorry to anyone who doesn't see me the same way.

We have Islam trying to take over the world with astronomical birth rates and migration to our lands. Then they demand we change our customs and adopt Islamic ones. If not, they cut your head off.

Catholics are not protestant's problem, if they have not noticed lol

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

Maybe we ought to stop worrying about what other people believe, and pay more attention to working out our own salvation in fear and trembling...

Love the Barrd!! Telling it like it is!!!

Salvation is a gift from the Lord, but it is a process, imo.

But pick up the obituaries and you wouldn't know that. Everyone is going to heaven, after all, they said a prayer once in 1972. Lived like the devil the rest of their life though, but it matters not because they prayed once. I'm being facetious but you get the drift.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

It was a RC priest that told me years ago when I was living on the streets of Quebec City at 14, that I must be born again. It didn't happen for another 3 years, but he was doing hid duty and without his witness I may never have been saved. I have a great empathy for everyday RCS even though they have suffered for centuries with bad management so to speak. Francis is ushering in a significant changes there I believe. A good change.

It's a lot of information in the RCC and so the protestant message of simplicity of calling on the Lord has it's merits. BTW, we have RC priests leading us in prayer to Jesus asking him into our hearts probably once per month or more. It's the charismatic renewal you may or may not have heard of. And if you are ever bored just sitting around clipping your toenails around 7am or 11 pm, turn it on EWTN and watch a mass. There is a prayer for those who cant receive communion asking the Lord to come into our hearts spiritually. Been that way for years.

In any event, the message is incomplete. There is one protestant guy I have seen named Ray Comfort who does a good job of getting people to understand it's more than just a prayer. He uses analogies like a parachute only saves if you if you actually put it on before you jump out of that falling plane.

Jesus told us to weigh the cost or dont bother. Luke 14:28-33 No cost involved in saying a prayer once.

 

[Barrd]

She bore God in her womb, that's a pretty big deal lol. Maybe she took that very seriously and dedicated her life to the Lord? We have nuns in the church that do that, no sex, EVER as they honor God. It's really not that strange of a practice and Jesus had something to say about celibate life Matthew 19:12

Yes, I would say that bearing God in her womb is a very big deal. But why add the "maybe"?


I've never quite figured out how giving up sex is honoring the Lord? Didn't God create them male and female, and didn't He instruct them to "go forth and multiply"?
There are some people who seem to think that anything that gives pleasure must be sinful. Is it a sin to enjoy a hot fudge sundae? Is it a sin to enjoy the beauty of the sky at night? Or the feel of cool water sliding against your skin on a hot summer's day? Is it a sin to enjoy the laughter of a child? Or the comfort of your own bed after a long day?
Is it a sin for a man and his wife to take pleasure in each other?

But we have a tendency to judge things not by 1st century Judea, but by our own modern times and customs.

Spiritus, my sweet brother in Christ, I do love you. Your innocence touches my jaded old heart.
Do you really think that people were not having sex in 1st century Judea?

Let me ask you, do retarded people sin? Do babies sin?

Do they sin?
Yes, they do.
Are they held accountable for their sin?
That is the real question, isn't it?
And, of course, the answer is "NO!"...